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10 of swords vs death


Kashi

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28 minutes ago, Helena said:

I think there's a difference in having a pollyanna spirit and malignant optimism that borders on delusion. Pollyanna was not delusional. She chose to pick a fruitful seed out of an otherwise rotting apple.

 

Not delusion, no. Denial. 

Those stories are from a time when kids were supposed to be "seen and not heard". They weren't supposed to feel disappointment, sadness or anger, just be cheerful little dolls without any mind of their own. That's what those books were for. Fred Rogers grew up in those times, that's why he was always telling kids it's OK to feel things. And while a little positivity bias is may not hurt in some situations, the Pollyanna series takes it to toxic levels. She ONLY focuses on the positive, no matter how extreme her problems are. We ignore things at our own peril. 

 

28 minutes ago, Helena said:

Why wouldn't the mysteries of consciousness be relevant at a reading table? Isn't that why we're all here? To communicate with a consiousness that we don't fully understand but that can see from a different point of view than our own and guide us in our best path?

 

8 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

As for the reading table, my clientele have never asked to discuss the mysteries of consciousness. They are more concerned with what their palms, or the cards, say is going on and what is to come. Other clients might be different. 

 

This. 

 

28 minutes ago, Helena said:

 I think the consiousness of a caterpillar could be a comforting metaphor to someone going through a difficult time. Read the room, obvi, but I don't see it as something to throw out as irrelevant. 

 

As fortunetellers, we're really not responsible for comforting anyone, but as humans, we often are. 

Dispensing syrupy little stories, however, makes things worse for people who are grieving. They're a dismissive signal that we don't care, that their pain is inappropriate, and that we're not really listening.  They don't feel heard. 

Often the best response is a simple "That sucks. I'm here."

 

28 minutes ago, Helena said:

Now, don't get me wrong...there have been times when my tower moment has JUST happened, and someone offering me "look on the bright side" infuriated me. I was in pain, and I felt like such a response was pretty judgy.

 

Exactly. It's like they've elevated themselves and they think they're better than you because they're cheerful. 
Horrible people. Some of them probably say that to people with dying children.
 

28 minutes ago, Helena said:

But later, after that pain subsided, I could see the value in what they had offered me.

 

"After the pain has subsided" a person is in a different place. 
But while "look on the bright side" is fine for minor disappointments, I have to disagree that it has any value otherwise.
 

28 minutes ago, Helena said:

Sometimes a person just needs to be supported through the pain and understood that maybe that's all she can see right then.

 

Exactly.
 


 

 

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hi im pretty new here but just thought id contribute to the discussion.

In relation to the death versus 10 of swords card i dont have allot of experience reading for others but when i work with the cards i read the energy of the cards not just the meanings, if i feel a heavier denser energy and like a churning in my stomach that could signify a loss or a death but otherwise if the energy is positive i do think of it as the end of one cycle and start of a new begginging, e.g leaving that which no longer serves behind like a job, relationship, old negative beliefs etc it could mean a transformation from the old to a more evolved self moving out of old habits, beliegs that no longer hinder you. Mostly i see it as positive card unless i get a heavier mote concerning or sad energy with it.

10 of swords, i see as air energy so could represent mental blocks anxiety  depression, bullying, trauma, pain, pressure, or being betrayed but the person does have the choice to rise again after falling and being stabbed in the back. Could be negative communication, when others verbally attack you as the swords are seen as communication and air energy. On a positive note after hardships you do learn the most so its not total defeat there is a choice here stay down or rise up 🙂

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hi im pretty new here but just thought id contribute to the discussion.

In relation to the death versus 10 of swords card i dont have allot of experience reading for others but when i work with the cards i read the energy of the cards not just the meanings, if i feel a heavier denser energy and like a churning in my stomach that could signify a loss or a death but otherwise if the energy is positive i do think of it as the end of one cycle and start of a new begginging, e.g leaving that which no longer serves behind like a job, relationship, old negative beliefs etc it could mean a transformation from the old to a more evolved self moving out of old habits, beliegs that no longer hinder you. Mostly i see it as positive card unless i get a heavier mote concerning or sad energy with it.

10 of swords, i see as air energy so could represent mental blocks anxiety  depression, bullying, trauma, pain, pressure, or being betrayed but the person does have the choice to rise again after falling and being stabbed in the back. Could be negative communication, when others verbally attack you as the swords are seen as communication and air energy. On a positive note after hardships you do learn the most so its not total defeat there is a choice here stay down or rise up 🙂

Edited by natty
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hi im pretty new here but just thought id contribute to the discussion.

In relation to the death versus 10 of swords card i dont have allot of experience reading for others but when i work with the cards i read the energy of the cards not just the meanings, if i feel a heavier denser energy and like a churning in my stomach that could signify a loss or a death but otherwise if the energy is positive i do think of it as the end of one cycle and start of a new begginging, e.g leaving that which no longer serves behind like a job, relationship, old negative beliefs etc it could mean a transformation from the old to a more evolved self moving out of old habits, beliegs that no longer hinder you. Mostly i see it as positive card unless i get a heavier mote concerning or sad energy with it.

10 of swords, i see as air energy so could represent mental blocks anxiety  depression, bullying, trauma, pain, pressure, or being betrayed but the person does have the choice to rise again after falling and being stabbed in the back. Could be negative communication, when others verbally attack you as the swords are seen as communication and air energy. On a positive note after hardships you do learn the most so its not total defeat there is a choice here stay down or rise up 🙂

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Real life...no lie, this happened yesterday and today. A woman I work with is known for being quite difficult to get along with. She's in a different department than I am. Yesterday, she was told she would be removed from her position and another position would be created for her so as to de-escalate the conflicts currently happening. Today, she cried a lot. There was a lot of, "she should be grateful she didn't get fired" thrown around. Is that true? Yes. I don't know all the details, but seems like it was pretty egregious. But at the same time, does she have the right to feel disappointed, embarrassed, sad, any number of negative feelings? Of course! Does telling her she should be grateful that she still has a job help anything? Nope...probably makes her feel like sh--. Is it true. Yep. And maybe she'll see that and transmute that situation.

 

Bringing this back to the death card vs the 10 of swords...I think death would apply here. Energy is never destroyed, so that's why I believe our consciousness is transformed at death rather than ceases to exist. Her job was not terminated, but rather her energy was repurposed within the same collective. 

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Interesting @Helena i think all experiences are ways for us to learn and whats percieved as a rejection as you say could actually be redirection. Agree energy cannot be created or destroyed as it is what it is but energy can change its vibration either lower or higher. 

Sounds like the woman in your example needs bit of reiki healing or positive blessings 🙂

your vibe attracts your tribe as they say 🙏

 

 

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14 hours ago, Helena said:

Real life...no lie, this happened yesterday and today. A woman I work with is known for being quite difficult to get along with. She's in a different department than I am. Yesterday, she was told she would be removed from her position and another position would be created for her so as to de-escalate the conflicts currently happening. Today, she cried a lot. There was a lot of, "she should be grateful she didn't get fired" thrown around. Is that true? Yes. I don't know all the details, but seems like it was pretty egregious. But at the same time, does she have the right to feel disappointed, embarrassed, sad, any number of negative feelings? Of course! Does telling her she should be grateful that she still has a job help anything? Nope...probably makes her feel like sh--. Is it true. Yep. And maybe she'll see that and transmute that situation.

 

I'd have said the same thing, but I wouldn't have meant it literally. 

In a work environment, people stand to get in a lot of trouble if they state things directly. So they use jargon. Here are some examples a friend of mine, Doktor Howl, wrote back in 2013. They're incisive enough that I've saved and remembered them all these years:

 "I have come up with some conclusions that seem to be almost universal, at least with respect to the United States.  Results may vary in other lands.  First, some definitions/de-coded statements and words:

“But” --> Ignore every word that preceded this one.

“I understand” --> I didn’t listen to a single word you said.

“I feel your pain” --> Go spread your tale of woe elsewhere.

“I have some issues with that” --> I am butthurt and I’m done listening.

There’s more, but you get the idea.  Language not used to directly convey information can be assumed to mean the exact opposite of what it seems to say.  Contrast it with the following:

“This f***ing thing is broken” --> This f***ing thing is broken.

“I love you” --> I love you.

“We had to let Harry go this week”  --> Harry doesn’t work here anymore.

Notice that the difference is that the first set of statements didn’t actually convey information, and the second set did.  We can form a hypothesis here, and that is that humans will give you factual information and package it in factual statements.  Humans will also feed you bull****, and will package it in words that don’t actually say anything, but sound as if they do."

 

I don't have Dok's way with words, but I think the translation for "she should be grateful she didn't get fired" is something along the lines of "I don't feel sorry for her, she's acting like a privileged, overindulged spoiled brat. Some of us are in horrible physical pain, others have terrible things going on in their personal lives, some of us are caught in the grind and exhausted from working multiple jobs or overtime 6 or 7 days a week trying to keep body and soul together, some are experiencing all of that and we don't cry about any of it publicly. And oh yeah - we can't stand some of the people we have to work with either." (Short version: "They shoulda fired her whiney ***.")

TBH, she sounds spoiled and manipulative. I don't know her, but it strikes me as attention whoring. They created a position for her. My job would have found an excuse to fire her. Most would. Administration doesn't want to accommodate the personal crap. 

I can see crying at work if you're dealing with a death or something equally gutting. I imagine some of the people who lost fingers and whatnot cried. And there was a young girl at my job who cried at work when the line lead verbally abused her horribly for hours. I emailed HR about that and they fixed it. But outside of that, NO. If you can't hold back the tears for some lesser reason, go to the restroom. Don't make a show of it. 

 

Quote

 

Bringing this back to the death card vs the 10 of swords...I think death would apply here. Energy is never destroyed, so that's why I believe our consciousness is transformed at death rather than ceases to exist. Her job was not terminated, but rather her energy was repurposed within the same collective. 

 

The key word here is "believe".
Some people believe we go to heaven or hell, some people believe we are reborn in this world, some people believe we're dead until the resurrection, and some people believe once your brain dies, it's over forever. 
ALL of these are items of faith. We don't KNOW.  
And what you want to bring to a reading is facts. So it's best not to impose any of that on Death. As @timtoldrum said, there's a difference between the consequence and the essence.
 

Edited by katrinka
Starred out the swears. The filter apparently doesn't work on copypaste, lol.
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@katrinkaI mean, it's a fact of physics that energy is neither created nor destroyed. To me, it follows that if consciousness is energy, it must be transformed upon death. To what, I don't know, but my belief in that is grounded in fact. To me, the transformation is part of the death process.

 

My goal here is not to convince you that I am right. Simply to state my position. I accept your position, and I accept that it differs from mine. 

 

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12 hours ago, natty said:

hi im pretty new here but just thought id contribute to the discussion.

In relation to the death versus 10 of swords card i dont have allot of experience reading for others but when i work with the cards i read the energy of the cards not just the meanings, if i feel a heavier denser energy and like a churning in my stomach that could signify a loss or a death but otherwise if the energy is positive i do think of it as the end of one cycle and start of a new begginging, e.g leaving that which no longer serves behind like a job, relationship, old negative beliefs etc it could mean a transformation from the old to a more evolved self moving out of old habits, beliegs that no longer hinder you. Mostly i see it as positive card unless i get a heavier mote concerning or sad energy with it.

10 of swords, i see as air energy so could represent mental blocks anxiety  depression, bullying, trauma, pain, pressure, or being betrayed but the person does have the choice to rise again after falling and being stabbed in the back. Could be negative communication, when others verbally attack you as the swords are seen as communication and air energy. On a positive note after hardships you do learn the most so its not total defeat there is a choice here stay down or rise up 🙂


@katrinka and I both read by essence, which is essentially the raw nature of the card. 
 

You refer to air energy, here. What is interesting is that air is the most life affirming element. It is hot and wet and is associated with love, happiness and joie de vivre. Picard and Flornoy both associated air with cups for that reason. 
 



 

5 hours ago, Helena said:

@katrinkaI mean, it's a fact of physics that energy is neither created nor destroyed. To me, it follows that if consciousness is energy, it must be transformed upon death. To what, I don't know, but my belief in that is grounded in fact. To me, the transformation is part of the death process.

 

My goal here is not to convince you that I am right. Simply to state my position. I accept your position, and I accept that it differs from mine. 

 

 

That itself interests me. As that is a belief based on another (potentially related) fact. 
 

Do you not believe that there has to be a difference between x and y?
 

Death is the extinction of physical life. 
 

What comes after... for me that surely must be different? For me that is the sun, or jugement /the angel card. 

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2 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

That itself interests me. As that is a belief based on another (potentially related) fact. 
 

Do you not believe that there has to be a difference between x and y?
 

Death is the extinction of physical life. 
 

What comes after... for me that surely must be different? For me that is the sun, or jugement /the angel card. 

I don't think x and y have to be mutually exclusive events, no. If death is red and the next thing is blue, the transformation is purple. It follows one, precedes the other, and is part of both. It is the connection between the two, in my view. I don't believe the Death card tells me what the next thing will be. That would have to be another card, as you say - the sun, judgement, what have you - and I agree with you. But I don't think that death is a mutually exclusive event that exists in a vacuum. Honestly, that's my view on life as a whole. Events, cycles, transformations - all exist on a continuum and bleed into each other. 

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1 hour ago, Helena said:

I don't think x and y have to be mutually exclusive events, no. If death is red and the next thing is blue, the transformation is purple. It follows one, precedes the other, and is part of both. It is the connection between the two, in my view. I don't believe the Death card tells me what the next thing will be. That would have to be another card, as you say - the sun, judgement, what have you - and I agree with you. But I don't think that death is a mutually exclusive event that exists in a vacuum. Honestly, that's my view on life as a whole. Events, cycles, transformations - all exist on a continuum and bleed into each other. 

 

I think in a strange way, we all agree.  It is more a question of emphasis.  That is what I like so much about this forum.  

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33 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

 

I think in a strange way, we all agree.  It is more a question of emphasis.  That is what I like so much about this forum.  

 

I think so too :) and in order to grow and progress, sometimes our views need a little challenge. Do they hold up to scrutiny, or does that scrutiny reveal holes in our logic? I like that.

 

@katrinka I definitely think we can agree that if someone is crying over something devastating, it's generally never a good idea to tell them to look on the bright side lol. I'm with you on that one. I appreciate the back and forth on everything else. It definitely made me think and consider. 

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16 minutes ago, Helena said:

I think so too 🙂 and in order to grow and progress, sometimes our views need a little challenge. Do they hold up to scrutiny, or does that scrutiny reveal holes in our logic? I like that.

 

YES. 
Some people take it as an "attack", but it isn't! It's good to throw an idea out on a forum and see if it holds up. Not getting opposing views is one of the hallmarks of an echo chamber. It can be a real red flag.
 

Sometimes people will agree.
Sometimes you'll go back and forth for a few pages, only to realize you actually DO agree and you've been arguing semantics.
Sometimes the disagreement is real. Debate is fun and it's not personal.
 

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The first thing i try to see when reading both cards is the significance of the Major card versus a Minor card. The Major card tells me that something life changing is about to take place, a permanent ending to a job, an old relationship, or even physical death. Although the Major cards are quite powerful in a reading the Minor cards can also foretell the same thing but in a less dramatic way.or maybe the end won't be as permanent.

The 10 of swords does seem to indicate that something is coming to its end, the figure in the Rider Waite card is still raising his right hand, so the figure is not quite dead yet. 

It seems to me that the minor card is a smaller part of the Death card, It’s the realization or acceptance that illustrates that death has not been achieved just yet. Whatever it is holds you down.

The Death card illustrates that in order to progress, for transformation to take place, we must move forward from that which has died. It’s a cycle card, it says that all things go on even in death, it’s just that they may not go on in the same way as before. 

 
Edited by Arcadia
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