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7. Snake + 13. Child


Krystalida

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Krystalida

Happy New Year everybody! with most us of in lockdown ūüôā

 

SO, 

I've been having the Child card coming for some months now and trying to decode its message, I interpreted it as my new business we had started along with my partner lately.

The last 2 months It comes in my weekly draws and it comes very often with the Snake. I didn't understand the meaning to be honest because I didn;t have any tricks around my new occupation or in general with children etc, I am childless by the way. Today I broke up with my boyfriend and turned the cards about what's coming between us, the first 2 cards is the Snake and Child with a significator the Ring, they came on the left of the Ring so they are referring to the past as I understand. 

I've went around looking for some meanings, I found some sites that describe the cards with the traditional meanings, 

Most of the interpretations with this combo that I found is about an unfaithful, deceiving, intelligent young person, I didn't have any of these the last 2 months and my boyfriend is around 50, so this meanings about a young person do not match. 

I looked around for the Jack of Spades and found that it could mean the thoughts of a person, seems to make more sense to me.

So could it have the meaning about immature thoughts? clumsy and irrational decisions? in the case of my new job I can think of it as őĪ superficial planning,¬†or again irrational thinking and planning.

 I don't feel satisfied to think that it means only a new beginning or an actual young person or child, at least with my experience up to now it rarely came up for something new.

 

I also had a friend who asked if she is gonna have a child and the combo of Snake + Child came 3 times in a row, the only thought that came to me was that she will but with some kind of trick involve.

I find it a bit unfair for the Snake to be always the deceiver, I like snakes and I used to have as a pet, they are not deceitful, they do not try to trick you, cats do, but Snakes react by instinct, if they feel threaten they will attack at that moment, they will not set any tricks to revenge or to protect themselves.

 

Any thoughts, experiences, comments are very welcome ūüôā¬†

 

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With Lenormand we really focus on the context so Snake + Child can mean many things depending on the question you asked.

Your question was "what's coming between us?"

 

Snake + Child + Ring

A simple answer could be that some complications affected your relationship recently (at least on his side if he didn't share that with you).

The Child can just be "some" at times, so "a little bit of something".

Do you think there could be another woman in his life since recently (a rival)? It's just something possible with the Snake, not something sure.

Edited by Decan
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DownUnderNZer

@Krystalida

 

Be really ideal if you took screen shots/photos or wrote the cards down (e.g. 13+07+?/07+13+?) because working out the placement of the Ring in your first scenario took way longer than reading it as a whole.

 

These are just possibilities!

 

PREGNANCY SCENARIO: 07+13

 

If just the two cards then issues, difficulties or complications getting pregnant. 

 

Not two cards?

 

If she has already tried she should be able able to tell you because this could be highlighting the past into the present. The outcome would depend, or not, if another card or cards came after 13 and weren't negative for you to come up with YES.

Eg 07+13+31

 

Aim for three cards or more and never even numbers. Two are good for learning combos though.

 

RELATIONSHIP:

What is coming between us? 07+13+25

 

It could very well be about another younger female (07+13) only there is no real commitment or its in its infancy stage (07+13+25).

 

Do you use a Lenormand system that refers to the Snake as the other woman?

 

Or...

 

It could be letting you know that issues, problems, immaturity (07+13) contributed one way or another. Perhaps not alot of serious and mature thought was made when entering the relationship (13+25) and what that really meant in the long term (07+13+25). Sometimes people jump in all guns blazing, but days/weeks or some months down the track they realise it wasn't the right decision.

 

So, underlying issues, troubles, deceit, immaturity all would have contributed to what came between you and the possibility of not thinking it through regarding being in a commited relationship for the long haul.

 

Hope it gives you something to work with as you try to work out your situation.

 

 

DND ūüĆě

 

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Krystalida
7 hours ago, DownUnderNZer said:

Be really ideal if you took screen shots/photos or wrote the cards down (e.g. 13+07+?/07+13+?) because working out the placement of the Ring in your first scenario took way longer than reading it as a whole.

 

These are just possibilities!

Hey DND!

 

The spread is usually  a 7 card spread I shuffle and then find the Significator in the deck, in case I mentioned was Ring and the other the Child, I read with its 2 card on the left and 2 the right, then I draw the Top and the Bottom cards, it is a spread I found in the book the cards came, I use the Enchanted Lenormand from Colette Mathews.

 

7 hours ago, DownUnderNZer said:

PREGNANCY SCENARIO: 07+13

 

If just the two cards then issues, difficulties or complications getting pregnant. 

 

Not two cards?

 

If she has already tried she should be able able to tell you because this could be highlighting the past into the present. The outcome would depend, or not, if another card or cards came after 13 and weren't negative for you to come up with YES.

Eg 07+13+31

 

Aim for three cards or more and never even numbers. Two are good for learning combos though.

 

This reading was very weird, she asked and 2 times in a eow the Child came last with snake next it , the 3 time I reshuffle it change, or else I wouldn't try again to do the reading.

No she hasn;t ever tried in the past, she is not so much into motherhood in general, I m not sure if is a negative or rather neutral feeling I have with this combo.

7 hours ago, DownUnderNZer said:

RELATIONSHIP:

What is coming between us? 07+13+25

 

It could very well be about another younger female (07+13) only there is no real commitment or its in its infancy stage (07+13+25).

 

Do you use a Lenormand system that refers to the Snake as the other woman?

 

Or...

 

It could be letting you know that issues, problems, immaturity (07+13) contributed one way or another. Perhaps not alot of serious and mature thought was made when entering the relationship (13+25) and what that really meant in the long term (07+13+25). Sometimes people jump in all guns blazing, but days/weeks or some months down the track they realise it wasn't the right decision.

 

So, underlying issues, troubles, deceit, immaturity all would have contributed to what came between you and the possibility of not thinking it through regarding being in a commited relationship for the long haul.

 

Hope it gives you something to work with as you try to work out your situation.

The other woman was a thought that came to me yes, even though if I think about it with logic it would be hard for him at this time, in the book it has some key words like rival, femme fatale, secret woman in many others.

 

What you describe there I must say it is a big possibility, we had these issues before but I thought we got over them. 

Thank you this was a lovely interpretation ūüôā

 

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Krystalida
On 1/10/2021 at 5:31 PM, Decan said:

With Lenormand we really focus on the context so Snake + Child can mean many things depending on the question you asked.

Your question was "what's coming between us?"

 

Snake + Child + Ring

A simple answer could be that some complications affected your relationship recently (at least on his side if he didn't share that with you).

The Child can just be "some" at times, so "a little bit of something".

Do you think there could be another woman in his life since recently (a rival)? It's just something possible with the Snake, not something sure.

Yes this was the question.

 

The other woman was something it came to me at first, even though I do trust him, or did at least and in general he didn't have much time to have another one, of course you nevery know.

 

Again this combo came yesterday in my general GT.

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Interesting.

With Lenormand 2 cards aren't enough most of the times, a minimum of 3 cards are often needed as a rule and regarding your question likely 5 cards maybe.

To state that there is possibly "another woman" in the landscape (or a flirt) from 2 cards is something "a bit short" to be honest, and here I don't know if you preselected the Ring card or not.

Well, it's a learning process, so everything is a step! ūüôā

Your question could be as well a little be different; indeed "what's coming between us?" could mean "why did we break up?" (but you already know it probably since you said "I broke", so this came from you), or something like "will we reconciliate?" or something else. I don't know here but the context makes me think that there is possibly a different question behind "what's coming between us?"

The cards answer the question so to formulate it is an important part, and next you combinate the meanings of the cards together.

My 2 cents! ūüôā

Edited by Decan
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1 hour ago, Decan said:

To state that there is possibly "another woman" in the landscape (or a flirt) from 2 cards is something "a bit short" to be honest, and here I don't know if you preselected the Ring card or not.

 

Yes. Youtube is full of people defaulting to that conclusion, but it's seldom the case. ūüôĄ

The Snake can also be winding roads, detours (so possibly delays), pipes, rivers, hoses, a same sex partner card for a woman, or an older woman. You have to find what fits.

 

There's only 36 cards in the deck, so you're going to see some cards repeating a lot. I wouldn't place undue importance on that.

 

On 1/10/2021 at 7:03 AM, Krystalida said:

I don't feel satisfied to think that it means only a new beginning or an actual young person or child, at least with my experience up to now it rarely came up for something new.

 

The Child can also be something small. That may be the case here. Snake + Child might literally be "a minor detour".

 

On 1/10/2021 at 7:03 AM, Krystalida said:

I find it a bit unfair for the Snake to be always the deceiver, I like snakes and I used to have as a pet, they are not deceitful, they do not try to trick you, cats do, but Snakes react by instinct, if they feel threaten they will attack at that moment, they will not set any tricks to revenge or to protect themselves.

 

True. Dogs will try to trick you sometimes, too, lol. But the Dog in Lenormand isn't about that, it's a card of loyalty. Dogs help put food on the table, they alert us to intruders, and there are many cases of them sacrificing their lives for people, so pretending they have to "do business" when they really just want to go outside is not a big deal. ūüėȬ†Snakes are about self preservation. It's their sole concern. So it's not that Snake people are out to trick you, it's just that you don't matter to them. They'll throw you under the bus if it suits their agenda.
 

Deceit is a Fox thing. The Snake can be about betrayal in certain placements, like Fox + Snake. Snake + Fox is just a clever woman - card order matters. So saying you've "been having a card come up for the last two months" isn't something that can be addressed. It's not going to mean the same thing every time. Often a card can talk about several different subjects in the same spread: the horizontal storyline might be about a woman, but the vertical or diagonal line might be about a busted pipe. Lenormand is very dependent on context, the precise question and the near lying cards. That's why I'm just throwing possibilities out here.

 

13 hours ago, Krystalida said:

No she hasn;t ever tried in the past, she is not so much into motherhood in general, I m not sure if is a negative or rather neutral feeling I have with this combo.


Nothing you've mentioned here would indicate pregnancy. You'd want Birds with the Child for that. Stork with the Child for the actual birth. 
If Child alone indicated pregnancy, we'd all be pregnant all the time.


 

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timtoldrum

Hello @Krystalida


If we focus on the question, the Serpent and the Child would intimate seeing less of each other¬†which resulted in a drifting apart/less of a connection. The Serpent is an indirect card that can cause issues¬†that ‚Äúgets in the way.‚ÄĚ

Sometimes the two together can indicate minor problems as well loss of spontaneity/naivety.

 

It is true that the Serpent can be the other woman. In fact, Mary Marco and Delclos (French)¬†state it can be a man. But you would want more than just these cards ‚ÄĒ they can both be read as two women.¬†
 

Traditionally, the Child can indicate the thoughts of others. If read that way, the Serpent just shows entanglements preventing closeness and drifting apart. 
 

Often the Serpent in pregnancy indicates issues with fusion. If the Fishes were next to the Serpent the sperm might be inadequate or slow. Other times the issues lies the blastocyte.  However we need to see the entire spread. 

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Krystalida
11 hours ago, Decan said:

Interesting.

With Lenormand 2 cards aren't enough most of the times, a minimum of 3 cards are often needed as a rule and regarding your question likely 5 cards maybe.

To state that there is possibly "another woman" in the landscape (or a flirt) from 2 cards is something "a bit short" to be honest, and here I don't know if you preselected the Ring card or not.

Well, it's a learning process, so everything is a step! ūüôā

Your question could be as well a little be different; indeed "what's coming between us?" could mean "why did we break up?" (but you already know it probably since you said "I broke", so this came from you), or something like "will we reconciliate?" or something else. I don't know here but the context makes me think that there is possibly a different question behind "what's coming between us?"

The cards answer the question so to formulate it is an important part, and next you combinate the meanings of the cards together.

My 2 cents! ūüôā

The spread was a 7 card spread ,I shuffle and then find the Significator in the deck, in the relationship case I mentioned was tje Ring, I read with its 2 card on the left and 2 the right, then I draw the Top and the Bottom cards, it creates something like a cross, it is a spread I found in the book the cards came, I use the Enchanted Lenormand from Colette Mathews.

 

No! he did, he broke up with me ūüôā¬†and yes I did ask for the reasons behind of what he said, it was very sudden,

I also asked about reconcilation, and yes the Child came again but bot with the Snake, it is huanting me!

How or what question would ask?

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Krystalida
9 hours ago, katrinka said:

The Snake can also be winding roads, detours (so possibly delays), pipes, rivers, hoses, a same sex partner card for a woman, or an older woman. You have to find what fits.

I like the parallel meaning with the Snake s shape with¬†pipes, roads, rivers ūüôā

 

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

The Child can also be something small. That may be the case here. Snake + Child might literally be "a minor detour".

 

A minor detour with not so much thought invested in maybe? in the case of my relationship something has happen to him ibeed, that changed his plans and he did mention it as a reason for the break up.

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

Dogs will try to trick you sometimes, too, lol. But the Dog in Lenormand isn't about that, it's a card of loyalty. Dogs help put food on the table, they alert us to intruders, and there are many cases of them sacrificing their lives for people, so pretending they have to "do business" when they really just want to go outside is not a big deal. ūüėČ

I agree, and up to now in Lenormand, it has been always for friends and loyalty.

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

Snakes are about self preservation. It's their sole concern. So it's not that Snake people are out to trick you, it's just that you don't matter to them. They'll throw you under the bus if it suits their agenda.

Yes, they ll do what they have to do.

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

Deceit is a Fox thing. The Snake can be about betrayal in certain placements, like Fox + Snake. Snake + Fox is just a clever woman - card order matters. So saying you've "been having a card come up for the last two months" isn't something that can be addressed. It's not going to mean the same thing every time. Often a card can talk about several different subjects in the same spread: the horizontal storyline might be about a woman, but the vertical or diagonal line might be about a busted pipe. Lenormand is very dependent on context, the precise question and the near lying cards. That's why I'm just throwing possibilities out here.

I m still getting a bit confuse with the lines, I mix the subjects, I guess this comes with experience.

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

Nothing you've mentioned here would indicate pregnancy. You'd want Birds with the Child for that. Stork with the Child for the actual birth. 
If Child alone indicated pregnancy, we'd all be pregnant all the time.

xexe true!

Why the Birds though? I ve read it could signify twins, but how does it come as pregnancy?

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Krystalida
3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

If we focus on the question, the Serpent and the Child would intimate seeing less of each other¬†which resulted in a drifting apart/less of a connection. The Serpent is an indirect card that can cause issues¬†that ‚Äúgets in the way.‚ÄĚ

Shouldn't it be first the Child + Snake for drifting apart? just thinking that the 2nd card describes the 1st.

We did see each other a lot lately, more than before.

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Traditionally, the Child can indicate the thoughts of others. If read that way, the Serpent just shows entanglements preventing closeness and drifting apart. 

It seems that the Snake can indicate detour

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Often the Serpent in pregnancy indicates issues with fusion. If the Fishes were next to the Serpent the sperm might be inadequate or slow. Other times the issues lies the blastocyte.  However we need to see the entire spread. 

This is very interesting actually.

 

I put the Child as a significator and found it at the bottom of the deck I reshuffled cause there wasn't any cards on the right¬† to read, and found it again at the bottom, I only remember the anchor next to the Snake in one of the times, the 3rd time I shuffle we finally got a spread ūüôā¬†the Birds were in that spread¬†but I do not remember¬†the rest of the cards

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timtoldrum
10 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

Shouldn't it be first the Child + Snake for drifting apart? just thinking that the 2nd card describes the 1st.

We did see each other a lot lately, more than before.


No. The Child and the Serpent would be a brief entanglement or small untruth. It could also indicate a young or short woman who could have a lisp or wear spectacles. In the case of the Serpent and the Child, the Serpent is a small bypath or diversion that keeps one from the direct route. Hence one grows apart. 

24 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

t seems that the Snake can indicate detour


Yes. The Serpent is a viper. If one comes across a venomous snake you take another route.

 

26 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

This is very interesting actually.

 

I put the Child as a significator and found it at the bottom of the deck I reshuffled cause there wasn't any cards on the right¬† to read, and found it again at the bottom, I only remember the anchor next to the Snake in one of the times, the 3rd time I shuffle we finally got a spread ūüôā¬†the Birds were in that spread¬†but I do not remember¬†the rest of the cards


It sounds like the Opening of the Book/Key. Sometimes simple lines can be best for such questions.

 

The classical combination for pregnancy is the Child and the Birds. You asked @katrinkafor the reason. The traditional image is nesting doves, incubating their eggs. The Birds is also the 7 of Diamonds. If you look at old cartomancy literature, such as Minetta, the card often refers to a child. 


The Stork was traditionally shown wading and eating a frog or newt. That is why it neutralises the Serpent and is associated with betterment. Only the Blaue Eule showed nesting storks. 

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13 hours ago, Krystalida said:

No! he did, he broke up with me ūüôā¬†and yes I did ask for the reasons behind of what he said, it was very sudden,

I also asked about reconcilation, and yes the Child came again but bot with the Snake, it is huanting me!

How or what question would ask?

Ah, okay I see now; actually I should have asked you because you said "I broke up with my boyfriend" in your first post and there was something I didn't understand completely regarding the context.

 

12 hours ago, Krystalida said:

I put the Child as a significator and found it at the bottom of the deck I reshuffled cause there wasn't any cards on the right¬† to read, and found it again at the bottom, I only remember the anchor next to the Snake in one of the times, the 3rd time I shuffle we finally got a spread ūüôā¬†the Birds were in that spread¬†but I do not remember¬†the rest of the cards

Oops, if you didn't note or took a pic of your spread... difficult now...

When I do a GT for myself I take a pic of it (with its date), and honestly I ruminate it, I don't decipher it right away, it takes time generally. But people who are very comfortable with GT don't really need much ruminations of course! I‚Äôm a little laborious ūüôā

Edited by Decan
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20 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Hello @Krystalida


If we focus on the question, the Serpent and the Child would intimate seeing less of each other¬†which resulted in a drifting apart/less of a connection. The Serpent is an indirect card that can cause issues¬†that ‚Äúgets in the way.‚ÄĚ

Sometimes the two together can indicate minor problems as well loss of spontaneity/naivety.

 

It is true that the Serpent can be the other woman. In fact, Mary Marco and Delclos (French)¬†state it can be a man. But you would want more than just these cards ‚ÄĒ they can both be read as two women.¬†
 

Traditionally, the Child can indicate the thoughts of others. If read that way, the Serpent just shows entanglements preventing closeness and drifting apart. 
 

Often the Serpent in pregnancy indicates issues with fusion. If the Fishes were next to the Serpent the sperm might be inadequate or slow. Other times the issues lies the blastocyte.  However we need to see the entire spread. 


I like these. ūüôā
I think the Snake could also allude to fallopian tubes, for obvious reasons. 

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timtoldrum
44 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I like these. ūüôā
I think the Snake could also allude to fallopian tubes, for obvious reasons. 


Hello ūüôā

 

Yes. From the gynaecological perspective, the Serpent often intimates that the blastocyte would have issues with implantation post fusion. So yes, fallopian would be appropriate and on the money.
 

It’s not the main health/anatomical meaning I associate with the card; however, in fertility readings it is one that comes up.
 

It‚Äôs one of those topics which we have ‚Äúadditional‚ÄĚ health associations. Like sepsis.
 

Sorry for interjecting before on the Child/Birds. 

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Krystalida
On 1/12/2021 at 10:52 PM, timtoldrum said:

Yes. The Serpent is a viper. If one comes across a venomous snake you take another route.

 

Or if you are a snake handler, you find a stick to pick it up xexe

On 1/12/2021 at 10:52 PM, timtoldrum said:

The classical combination for pregnancy is the Child and the Birds. You asked @katrinkafor the reason. The traditional image is nesting doves, incubating their eggs. The Birds is also the 7 of Diamonds. If you look at old cartomancy literature, such as Minetta, the card often refers to a child. 

I think for Lenormand there is lots of misinformation around, Birds in the modern age are referring mostly for communication and gossip.

 

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Krystalida
On 1/13/2021 at 10:51 AM, Decan said:

Oops, if you didn't note or took a pic of your spread... difficult now...

When I do a GT for myself I take a pic of it (with its date), and honestly I ruminate it, I don't decipher it right away, it takes time generally. But people who are very comfortable with GT don't really need much ruminations of course! I‚Äôm a little laborious ūüôā

I do save them or write them down when is my readings, but for clients or friends I dont to be honest.

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timtoldrum
7 hours ago, Krystalida said:

Or if you are a snake handler, you find a stick to pick it up xexe


Quite. However, the Farmer and Viper illustrates the Petit Lenormand perspective.  The fable is the key to her significations in terms of proximity.

 

Lenormand draws heavily from folklore, and some of the images have been influential to their significations, too e.g. Anchor and beaches, Cavalier and attire, Bear and mothers, &c. 
 

A lot of newer readers focus on complications with the card. But the Serpent itself is not a complication,¬†she just often derails circumstances which can trigger some complications. She is a warning card (neutral) rather a malefic (Clouds, Coffin, Scythe, et cetera). But in a negative formation (e.g. Fox ‚ÄĒ Serpent or Serpent ‚ÄĒ Heart) can be a very unpleasant picture. @katrinkacould offer another perspective.

 

7 hours ago, Krystalida said:

I think for Lenormand there is lots of misinformation around, Birds in the modern age are referring mostly for communication and gossip


Misinformation, how? There has never been a universally accepted standard.  So you won’t ever find total agreement. 
 

The Birds is a communication card (as well as an animal and person card and is neutral). It often signifies a cacophony, noise  and information that ruffles feathers (for a short time).


However, nesting birds have long been associated with fertility. In timing, it can refer to Eastertide because of the once common practice of painting of eggs. There are layers to meanings that come interplay in different contexts. 
 

Edited by timtoldrum
Clarity and Typo
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DownUnderNZer

@Krystalida

 

Snake

 

I really like snakes too, but try not to associate the card with your own thoughts and feelings on what the animal represents to you in real life.

 

The Snake can also be someone that looks like Snow White as in long black hair and stunning blue eyes. Fair skin and absolutely pretty. Still treacherous though.

 

Also, remember that there are only 7 cards really with negative meanings and this card happens to be one of them, but the cards that flank and surround it, as well as the question that is being asked, impact on it in a reading as well - especially what follows it if it isn't the last card.

 

Everything has to be factored in from the first card to the last.

 

In Short:

 

Snake is usually always negative, but a positive card following it can (not always) turn that around and quite favorably. Eg Clover/Sun.

 

As for it being the other woman you have to be really careful with that because it might not be at all and can actually ruin relationships. The flanking or surrounding cards impact on the meaning quite significantly and the Snake isn't always about an affair or another woman.

 

MISNFORMATION

 

Maybe it is just that some use different Lenormand approaches and/or meanings only they may not say what it is that they use when it comes to websites etc.

 

However, it can cause confusion for beginners when using different sites and books as this has come up before when AT was active.

 

Maybe write down the full spreads you do from now on so that when you post your questions everyone can see all of the cards and how they are positioned from each other etc. 

 

 

 

DND ūüĆě

 

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On 1/13/2021 at 8:09 AM, timtoldrum said:

Sorry for interjecting before on the Child/Birds. 

 

No apologies needed! 

 

On 1/14/2021 at 10:49 AM, timtoldrum said:


Quite. However, the Farmer and Viper illustrates the Petit Lenormand perspective.  The fable is the key to her significations in terms of proximity.

 

Yes. Vipers aren't something you want to put down your shirt, obviously. ūüėĀ

 

Quote

Lenormand draws heavily from folklore, and some of the images have been influential to their significations, too e.g. Anchor and beaches, Cavalier and attire, Bear and mothers, &c. 
 

A lot of newer readers focus on complications with the card. But the Serpent itself is not a complication,¬†she just often derails circumstances which can trigger some complications. She is a warning card (neutral) rather a malefic (Clouds, Coffin, Scythe, et cetera). But in a negative formation (e.g. Fox ‚ÄĒ Serpent or Serpent ‚ÄĒ Heart) can be a very unpleasant picture. @katrinkacould offer another perspective.

 

Mine isn't that much different. I started with Treppner and another German lady. There was no mention of betrayal from them since when snakes bite, they're just being snakes - who's to blame? Coddling and handling the deadly ones is a fool's errand. People are expected to know that and behave accordingly (though there's no shortage of fools in this world.) So it's more a question of what one considers to be betrayal, not a huge difference in interpreting the card itself. I do agree she's neutral, but there's a definite warning there.

When the Snake is a woman, she's often older. (That might be wisdom related, but I always thought that the scales around a snake's mouth resemble lip wrinkles, lol.) She often wears glasses, too - snakes have poor eyesight. She can be good to have in your corner, but don't cross her! Again, the idea of not provoking snakes but sometimes benefitting from them - a lot of them do eat rats and other vermin.

 

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Misinformation, how? There has never been a universally accepted standard.  So you won’t ever find total agreement. 
 

The Birds is a communication card (as well as an animal and person card and is neutral). It often signifies a cacophony, noise  and information that ruffles feathers (for a short time).

 

Yes. Hecticness, chattering, and gossip are still relevant.
 

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However, nesting birds have long been associated with fertility.

In timing, it can refer to Eastertide because of the once common practice of painting of eggs. There are layers to meanings that come interplay in different contexts. 

 

I suspect the popularity of the Blaue Eule contributed to a split. People started reading the Birds as an old couple. But nesting doves would allude to a younger one. 
It doesn't have to be contradictory. My advice would be to just go with context, and with what you're using.
 

 

 

Edited by katrinka
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On 1/14/2021 at 6:49 PM, timtoldrum said:

Quite. However, the Farmer and Viper illustrates the Petit Lenormand perspective.  The fable is the key to her significations in terms of proximity.

 

Lenormand draws heavily from folklore, and some of the images have been influential to their significations, too e.g. Anchor and beaches, Cavalier and attire, Bear and mothers, &c. 
 

A lot of newer readers focus on complications with the card. But the Serpent itself is not a complication,¬†she just often derails circumstances which can trigger some complications. She is a warning card (neutral) rather a malefic (Clouds, Coffin, Scythe, et cetera). But in a negative formation (e.g. Fox ‚ÄĒ Serpent or Serpent ‚ÄĒ Heart) can be a very unpleasant picture. @katrinkacould offer another perspective.

 

I see, we have to think of the meanings with the mind they were set on that time.

 

I had the combo of Fox - Serpent once, I can't really remember somewhere to connect it, maybe I missed to see it, it sounds very tricky and like a bomb ready to explode if you over step though¬†ūüôā

 

I don't find the Scythe malefic to be honest, I did experience the card with seperations and sudden events, but I also find it for accumulation, bringing things together and clearing in and out¬†what is necessary, I once had it for the dentist ūüôā

 

On 1/14/2021 at 6:49 PM, timtoldrum said:

The Birds is a communication card (as well as an animal and person card and is neutral). It often signifies a cacophony, noise  and information that ruffles feathers (for a short time).


However, nesting birds have long been associated with fertility. In timing, it can refer to Eastertide because of the once common practice of painting of eggs. There are layers to meanings that come interplay in different contexts. 

Yes, Lenormand have many practical associations, my mind wouldn't go on the Easter period for this reason.

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On 1/14/2021 at 9:16 PM, DownUnderNZer said:

@Krystalida

 

Snake

 

I really like snakes too, but try not to associate the card with your own thoughts and feelings on what the animal represents to you in real life.

 

The Snake can also be someone that looks like Snow White as in long black hair and stunning blue eyes. Fair skin and absolutely pretty. Still treacherous though.

 

Also, remember that there are only 7 cards really with negative meanings and this card happens to be one of them, but the cards that flank and surround it, as well as the question that is being asked, impact on it in a reading as well - especially what follows it if it isn't the last card.

 

Everything has to be factored in from the first card to the last.

 

In Short:

 

Snake is usually always negative, but a positive card following it can (not always) turn that around and quite favorably. Eg Clover/Sun.

 

As for it being the other woman you have to be really careful with that because it might not be at all and can actually ruin relationships. The flanking or surrounding cards impact on the meaning quite significantly and the Snake isn't always about an affair or another woman.

 

MISNFORMATION

 

Maybe it is just that some use different Lenormand approaches and/or meanings only they may not say what it is that they use when it comes to websites etc.

 

However, it can cause confusion for beginners when using different sites and books as this has come up before when AT was active.

 

Maybe write down the full spreads you do from now on so that when you post your questions everyone can see all of the cards and how they are positioned from each other etc. 

 

 

 

DND ūüĆě

 

Around the web as I noticed, they post the most common keywords for the cards, same goes for Tarot, it is very rare to find a more researched sources, and  yes I do miss the AT, but I must from all the other forums Ive tried this is the best one.

 

I always take a photo of my spreads, since I have a smat phone and go back and analyse again and again, but I am a newbie in Lenormand so I not much of experience yet¬†ūüôā

 

 

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21 hours ago, Krystalida said:

I see, we have to think of the meanings with the mind they were set on that time.

 

I had the combo of Fox - Serpent once, I can't really remember somewhere to connect it, maybe I missed to see it, it sounds very tricky and like a bomb ready to explode if you over step though¬†ūüôā

 

I don't find the Scythe malefic to be honest, I did experience the card with seperations and sudden events, but I also find it for accumulation, bringing things together and clearing in and out what is necessary, I once had it for the dentist

 

The meanings that I utilise are consistent with the original instructions. To be fair the majority of literature I have seen is. There is an issue of over generalisations ‚ÄĒ the French say x, and the Germans y ‚ÄĒ but this is typical to most disciplines.¬†
 

Having worked with the cards (for a very long time) and then students, keywords are not something that I advocate. It is better to get an understanding of the emblem (e.g. the Serpent is a venomous reptile) and its function(its venom facilities immobilisation and kills).  
 

If you look at the original instructions, which myself and others have translated:

 

Snake, is a sign of misfortunes, which is gauged by the distance of the card to that of a person, but always brings hypocrisy, betrayal and loss. 

 

If you then read the Farmer and the Viper, you will see why the Serpent had its original associations.
 

These tales were common in Continental and Eastern Europe. When I first started reading (a long time ago) the meanings I was taught made sense. 
 

If one considers a malefic in the context of divination the Scythe fits. It is neither bad or evil but it does not facilitate growth. That is why Saturn and Mars are malefic.

The Fox + Serpent is not an association one likes to see. It’s the entrance to the vipers nest. Flipped around is not so bad. 
 

21 hours ago, Krystalida said:

I see, we have to think of the meanings with the mind they were set on that time.

 

I had the combo of Fox - Serpent once, I can't really remember somewhere to connect it, maybe I missed to see it, it sounds very tricky and like a bomb ready to explode if you over step though¬†ūüôā

 

I don't find the Scythe malefic to be honest, I did experience the card with seperations and sudden events, but I also find it for accumulation, bringing things together and clearing in and out what is necessary, I once had it for the dentist


Some of the associations are geographic. When I was growing up, decorated eggs were quite common. It was a logical inference and you do sometimes see it in French and Eastern European sources. Some just say spring, too.

 

It is similar to the xvi ‚ÄĒ the God-House¬†in tarot, which can be by the 4th¬†December.¬†

 

On 1/16/2021 at 1:42 AM, katrinka said:

 

No apologies needed! 

 

 

Yes. Vipers aren't something you want to put down your shirt, obviously. ūüėĀ

 

 

Mine isn't that much different. I started with Treppner and another German lady. There was no mention of betrayal from them since when snakes bite, they're just being snakes - who's to blame? Coddling and handling the deadly ones is a fool's errand. People are expected to know that and behave accordingly (though there's no shortage of fools in this world.) So it's more a question of what one considers to be betrayal, not a huge difference in interpreting the card itself. I do agree she's neutral, but there's a definite warning there.

When the Snake is a woman, she's often older. (That might be wisdom related, but I always thought that the scales around a snake's mouth resemble lip wrinkles, lol.) She often wears glasses, too - snakes have poor eyesight. She can be good to have in your corner, but don't cross her! Again, the idea of not provoking snakes but sometimes benefitting from them - a lot of them do eat rats and other vermin.

 

 

Yes. Hecticness, chattering, and gossip are still relevant.
 

 

I suspect the popularity of the Blaue Eule contributed to a split. People started reading the Birds as an old couple. But nesting doves would allude to a younger one. 
It doesn't have to be contradictory. My advice would be to just go with context, and with what you're using.
 

 

 


Like the Fox, it is a divisive card. If the Serpent bites she has to be close enough to do so. As such, the betrayal is often more by association. The person can let you down.
 

It thus has echoes of the Hermit in tarot. That card warns us to be vigilant.

 

She neutralises the Mice because ‚ÄĒ well it‚Äôs obvious. Same as why the Stork can neutralise the Serpent.¬†
 

The White Serpent was and is a common tale. Certainly it fits with my experience. If, however, we recall the cards’ origin then most would know: the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth...

 

The older woman, for me, came from the dame. In Northern patterns, both the king and over knave of acorns are seen as older people. Silvestre states that the Dame usually refers an intelligent woman and she then discusses how that can work with the card’s other meanings. Delclos is a bit more complex.
 

The dame de trèfle is titled argine which is thought to mean either Regina or Argos, the cult centre for Hera.   

 

I see her as a neutral card, but also a warning and she can turn negative with the appropriate negative rated card. Scythe + Serpent, Fox + Serpent and Clouds + Serpent are never nice pairs.

Edited by timtoldrum
Clarity.
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