akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: So they’d take a water rock and an earth rock and an air rock, a fire rock and possibly a tree rock etc. Could you explain what an air and fire rock is? Would it be the colour? 3 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: Then they’d have the patient sit high over a bucket of boiling water, and the rocks were carefully placed in the water. Whatever rock(s) cracked held the clue to which element was the cause of the ailment. They’d later use those same rocks to return the illness to where it came from. Similar principles were used to classify the energy of other things as well. I really admire the ingenuity, and often wonder how these things are discovered! I'm assuming they bind the illness to the rock? Or use things associated with the element to get rid of it? Is it still practiced?
Raggydoll Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 17 minutes ago, akiva said: Could you explain what an air and fire rock is? Would it be the colour? it’s the placement of them. So a rock that’s been in a fire, like one that was used in a campfire would be a fire rock, and one that sits out in the open air is an air rock. 17 minutes ago, akiva said: I really admire the ingenuity, and often wonder how these things are discovered! I'm assuming they bind the illness to the rock? Or use things associated with the element to get rid of it? Is it still practiced? The practices differ a bit but the main thing is that broken rock is to be put together and returned to where it was taken. They would say some words (a spell) to shown their intention of returning this illness to where it came from. This type of practice is still known to some people and i wouldn’t be surprised to hear if certain folks still practice it. I use elemental aspects in my own work with rocks. I believe it might be a Sami tradition to begin with, but I am not sure. The area where I am from has a mix of Swedish, Finnish and Sami culture. The type of magic that my grandfather practiced was mostly done by the Sami people, and I’m not entirely sure how he learnt it. I do know that some of his forefathers lived with the Sami people and they were taught certain things by them, so I think it’s possible he learnt it that way. There are many other old methods that use a similar type of reasoning and I think this was what made sense to farmers. Most of them probably didn’t know about astrological correspondences, i think it was more the moon phases and the day/time of year that mattered.
GreatDane Posted October 4, 2023 Author Posted October 4, 2023 Thank you for sharing what you do and what you know about, Raggydoll. I wish I had family that shared traditions more. Perhaps if I were born were my grandparents were and grew up, I would have learned more, but once they came to the US, everything was about assimilating, not standing out. It was in the early 1920's when there was a lot of diversity in the US, but also a lot of prejudice about being different.
akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 16 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: it’s the placement of them. So a rock that’s been in a fire, like one that was used in a campfire would be a fire rock, and one that sits out in the open air is an air rock. Thanks for explaining, the elemental association is very clever, like they're embedded with specific frequencies! I'm guessing fire is things like inflammation, or air would be problems with the lungs or mind? 18 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: This type of practice is still known to some people and i wouldn’t be surprised to hear if certain folks still practice it. I use elemental aspects in my own work with rocks. I believe it might be a Sami tradition to begin with, but I am not sure. The area where I am from has a mix of Swedish, Finnish and Sami culture. The type of magic that my grandfather practiced was mostly done by the Sami people, and I’m not entirely sure how he learnt it. I do know that some of his forefathers lived with the Sami people and they were taught certain things by them, so I think it’s possible he learnt it that way. Wow what a cultural mix of practices, that's so cool 😁 having such a blend of practices really does make for some unique craft. Do you practice what your grandfather practiced or did you find your own way? A lot of the cunning folk practices here in the UK were diluted/destroyed by Christianity and it's difficult to find the older methods that arent full of christianism (nothing against it of course, but I like getting to the root of things). It's kind of why I use sigil magic, it's similar to the old ways of writing verses and symbols on paper/items and putting them in various places in the house (like under the litter tray to stop my cat from marking 😾👀) but I'd love to discover the old ancestral ways though, maybe I need to contact them...
Raggydoll Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 20 minutes ago, akiva said: Thanks for explaining, the elemental association is very clever, like they're embedded with specific frequencies! I'm guessing fire is things like inflammation, or air would be problems with the lungs or mind? many of them believed that these type of conditions were caused by certain beings, and these were tied to elements. So if the cause was water, then it could be that the person has offended the havsrå/sjörå (the female keeper of the lake and waters) and if it was wood energy it could be the skogsrå (keeper of the woods) that caused it. They also believe that the fey and the trolls causes certain conditions. So everything is very cultural. When I grew up I was taught not to upset the keepers or the spirits of the land. There were certain things we should never do, because it could result in dire consequences. My grandfather also believed that some cases of drowning were due to these beings. It’s difficult to explain because there are no good English words for these things. 20 minutes ago, akiva said: Wow what a cultural mix of practices, that's so cool 😁 having such a blend of practices really does make for some unique craft. Do you practice what your grandfather practiced or did you find your own way? His specific type of healing magic is something I don’t do. I practice in a different way but a lot of it is based on tradition and what I was taught as a child. My dad was great with herbs, trees and plants, and he knew how to divine with signs in nature. So he taught me lots too. 20 minutes ago, akiva said: A lot of the cunning folk practices here in the UK were diluted/destroyed by Christianity and it's difficult to find the older methods that arent full of christianism (nothing against it of course, but I like getting to the root of things). It's kind of why I use sigil magic, it's similar to the old ways of writing verses and symbols on paper/items and putting them in various places in the house (like under the litter tray to stop my cat from marking 😾👀) but I'd love to discover the old ancestral ways though, maybe I need to contact them... I find it very helpful to communicate with my ancestors to learn more. My spirit guide is an ancestor as well as family protector (in Norse culture, the spirit protectors are tied to bloodlines rather than individuals).
akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 30 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: My grandfather also believed that some cases of drowning were due to these beings. It’s difficult to explain because there are no good English words for these things. How do you view such things? Are these beings part of your belief system later in life? I understand it's sometimes difficult to explain things, but you've done a wonderful job in explaining some your cultures practices to a layman 😊 38 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: I find it very helpful to communicate with my ancestors to learn more. My spirit guide is an ancestor as well as family protector (in Norse culture, the spirit protectors are tied to bloodlines rather than individuals). I'd like to do this I think. It's definitely missing from my life!
Raggydoll Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, akiva said: How do you view such things? Are these beings part of your belief system later in life? I understand it's sometimes difficult to explain things, but you've done a wonderful job in explaining some your cultures practices to a layman 😊 These beings are a way to give name and form to a force that is very real. I think that it doesn’t matter what we call it or how we imagine or experience it, but the important thing is that we acknowledge and learn about it. When I talk about spirit of place, these keepers are what I talk about. They are the essences of nature, and i feel that it is important to work with them whenever we work with the natural elements. This reminds me of something. I have a copy of an old family letter. It was written in the 1800s but it describes events that took place in the 1750s. It talks about how some of my ancestors were given a wedding-blessing from the Keeper of the rock/mine that was on their property. The name used for this being describe it as a sort of male gnome that inhabited the rock. This blessing was in the forum of a written document (someone close to the family arranged this, I don’t know the details of how they did it) that was passed on to their children, as a treasured heirloom. They believed that it was this blessing that helped their children survive to old age and that it brought the family great fortune. They did become rather wealthy and eventually got to take over the running of that mine. What’s interesting is that this family counted themselves as devout christians, which I guess says a lot about Norse Christianity 😁! 2 minutes ago, akiva said: I'd like to do this I think. It's definitely missing from my life! I have found that the best time (for me, maybe it works for you too!) to establish a connection is right before I go to sleep. It’s done in the ‘in between’ state, and I ask to communicate and will let them know of any questions I may have. Sometimes they speak directly to me, other times I am shown the answer in my sleep. It’s become a very important part of my daily practice!
akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 38 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: These beings are a way to give name and form to a force that is very real. I think that it doesn’t matter what we call it or how we imagine or experience it, but the important thing is that we acknowledge and learn about it. When I talk about spirit of place, these keepers are what I talk about. They are the essences of nature, and i feel that it is important to work with them whenever we work with the natural elements. So very similar to the occult idea of salamanders, fae and the like, natural forces personified as beings around us? 42 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: This reminds me of something. I have a copy of an old family letter. It was written in the 1800s but it describes events that took place in the 1750s. It talks about how some of my ancestors were given a wedding-blessing from the Keeper of the rock/mine that was on their property. The name used for this being describe it as a sort of male gnome that inhabited the rock. This blessing was in the forum of a written document (someone close to the family arranged this, I don’t know the details of how they did it) that was passed on to their children, as a treasured heirloom. They believed that it was this blessing that helped their children survive to old age and that it brought the family great fortune. They did become rather wealthy and eventually got to take over the running of that mine. What’s interesting is that this family counted themselves as devout christians, which I guess says a lot about Norse Christianity 😁! That's such a great story, you have a fascinating family history 😊 and what a treasure to have in the family! Is the mine still in the family? It's weird how there's this blend of folk and Christian beliefs and how it affected practices, much like the cunning folk here. I have an Icelandic grimoire that on one page is all about carving symbols in blood and on the next talks about moses and his staff 🤣 52 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: I have found that the best time (for me, maybe it works for you too!) to establish a connection is right before I go to sleep. It’s done in the ‘in between’ state, and I ask to communicate and will let them know of any questions I may have. Sometimes they speak directly to me, other times I am shown the answer in my sleep. It’s become a very important part of my daily practice! Haha my plan is to make an offering and create a sigil requesting contact and put it under my pillow to sleep on! 🤣This get things going. Though I might do a reading or two before I do this to see who they potentially are/what potential outcomes might be. I'm not as good at the in-between state as I used to be. When I was a child I could go into trances (I used to use that state to ignore people 😅) but I've lost that ability due to not nurturing it...
Raggydoll Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 54 minutes ago, akiva said: So very similar to the occult idea of salamanders, fae and the like, natural forces personified as beings around us? Yes, I would say so. There is also the inherent power and energy of nature phenomenon like the moon and thunder and rain.. And there is both an essence of, let’s say, oak trees in general, as well as in each tree in particular. And I wouldn’t say that the trees essence is the same as the keeper of the tree. So it’s complex, but words don’t matter much. Our minds can take in the complexity when we stop trying to analyze and label it! This type of belief is very old, that much we know. In the Old Icelandic rune poem they mention ‘kletta bui’ as one of the kennings. This means “rock inhabitant/dweller”. It’s the same type of being that my ancestors got the blessing from. 54 minutes ago, akiva said: That's such a great story, you have a fascinating family history 😊 and what a treasure to have in the family! Is the mine still in the family? No the mine is closed now. Those ancestors were on my maternal grandmothers side of the family. We used to call them moms “fancy genes”. I know there was a huge family reunion back when mom was young, and lots of half-noble people showed up. Further back in time they had their own family crests and super far back, they were allegedly part of the Danish and Norwegian royal house. My grandmothers family records actually list one line of our ancestors back to this woman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snæfrithr_Svásadottir She was a Finnish/Sami sorceress who married the Norwegian king Harald Finehair. I don’t put much trust in such old accounts, it’s just a fun anecdote. And since I grew up in the north, with dads very humble and un-fancy side of the family, I have never really identified with that side of things! 54 minutes ago, akiva said: It's weird how there's this blend of folk and Christian beliefs and how it affected practices, much like the cunning folk here. I have an Icelandic grimoire that on one page is all about carving symbols in blood and on the next talks about moses and his staff 🤣 OH yes! Those Icelandic grimoires are fab, they mix everything. 😆 Icelandic magicians were really into western esotericism and Kabbalah and Rosicrucianism etc. And the Swedish rune scholars who documented the Swedish rune poem in the 1600s were occultists too! They believed that runes held the path to spiritual enlightenment. So that is something I keep in mind when studying rune kennings. They have many layers to them! 54 minutes ago, akiva said: Haha my plan is to make an offering and create a sigil requesting contact and put it under my pillow to sleep on! 🤣This get things going. Though I might do a reading or two before I do this to see who they potentially are/what potential outcomes might be. I'm not as good at the in-between state as I used to be. When I was a child I could go into trances (I used to use that state to ignore people 😅) but I've lost that ability due to not nurturing it... Well it sounds like a great plan! Go for it!
akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 12 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: Yes, I would say so. There is also the inherent power and energy of nature phenomenon like the moon and thunder and rain.. And there is both an essence of, let’s say, oak trees in general, as well as in each tree in particular. And I wouldn’t say that the trees essence is the same as the keeper of the tree. So it’s complex, but words don’t matter much. Our minds can take in the complexity when we stop trying to analyze and label it! This type of belief is very old, that much we know. In the Old Icelandic rune poem they mention ‘kletta bui’ as one of the kennings. This means “rock inhabitant/dweller”. It’s the same type of being that my ancestors got the blessing from. It's like our ancestors knew that source permeates everything. And everything is a part of the same whole. Making it a part of the greater conscious. Martin Buber talks about something similar in his Book "I and Thou" where he explains we should view everything and everyone external to ourselves as a 'you' in a sense of acceptance, as opposed to an 'it', or something just to be acquired and thrown away for the experience. My take from it was viewing everything as alive, even if to us it doesn't seem that way. 21 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: No the mine is closed now. Those ancestors were on my maternal grandmothers side of the family. We used to call them moms “fancy genes”. I know there was a huge family reunion back when mom was young, and lots of half-noble people showed up. Further back in time they had their own family crests and super far back, they were allegedly part of the Danish and Norwegian royal house. My grandmothers family records actually list one line of our ancestors back to this woman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snæfrithr_Svásadottir She was a Finnish/Sami sorceress who married the Norwegian king Harald Finehair. I don’t put much trust in such old accounts, it’s just a fun anecdote. And since I grew up in the north, with dads very humble and un-fancy side of the family, I have never really identified with that side of things! I love the connection you have to your past/ancestors 😊 it's really inspiring! And thanks for the link, it was a great read. I recognised the name Harold Finehair from the vikings series! 😂 With powerful sorcereress ancestors I'm not surprised you have such a strong connection with nature! 25 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: OH yes! Those Icelandic grimoires are fab, they mix everything. 😆 Icelandic magicians were really into western esotericism and Kabbalah and Rosicrucianism etc. And the Swedish rune scholars who documented the Swedish rune poem in the 1600s were occultists too! They believed that runes held the path to spiritual enlightenment. So that is something I keep in mind when studying rune kennings. They have many layers to them! They do make a fascinating read. There's a few spells I want to try from it, but the ingredients are wild 🤣 I'll have to think of some alternatives to all the blood they used as I'm a sucker for spells involving symbols and scripts 😁
GreatDane Posted October 4, 2023 Author Posted October 4, 2023 I agree our ancestors were more attune to nature. So much concrete, no many people looking UP at night, connecting to nature. Being PART of the universe and not just thinking in terms of walking on sidewalks to get to the next building, had to help them be more attune.
akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 35 minutes ago, GreatDane said: I agree our ancestors were more attune to nature. So much concrete, no many people looking UP at night, connecting to nature. Being PART of the universe and not just thinking in terms of walking on sidewalks to get to the next building, had to help them be more attune. This is so true. It's like in the moments where you look up at the vast open night sky, there's this sense of integration with nature/source. The challenge is maintaining it while you're in the concrete jungle.
GreatDane Posted October 4, 2023 Author Posted October 4, 2023 Amen, Akiva. The sky is my church. I have nothing against churches, attended some. But don't feel a church is necessary for my spiritual path. To me, churches are manmade, the sky isn't. I live in a fairly small town, so unless clouds (and even then, during a full moon, beautiful), it's like a planetarium. I do gratitudes, intentions, outside at night, looking at the sky, same thing in the morning.
akiva Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 13 minutes ago, GreatDane said: Amen, Akiva. The sky is my church. I have nothing against churches, attended some. But don't feel a church is necessary for my spiritual path. To me, churches are manmade, the sky isn't. I'm all for people practicing their beliefs how the see fit, but I've never understood being tied to a building to practice spirituality. Not just religious practice but also ceremonial magick temple practice too. Location shouldn't matter as we are the driving force behind our connection to the divine! 14 minutes ago, GreatDane said: I live in a fairly small town, so unless clouds (and even then, during a full moon, beautiful), it's like a planetarium. I do gratitudes, intentions, outside at night, looking at the sky, same thing in the morning. That sounds like bliss! That gratitude/intention idea sounds fun, I'll be trying that tonight 😁
Arania Posted October 4, 2023 Posted October 4, 2023 Ceremonial magic does not need buildings, in fact some rituals call for the forest or at least an out-of-the-way location.
GreatDane Posted October 5, 2023 Author Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) We are literally on the same page, Akiva and Arania. Akiva, I do my Wantings during the New Moon, I do my Riddings on a Full Moon. JUST ME. It's a full circle thing. But every night and every morning, when I am outside with my dog, I do a gratitude and affirmation. WHATEVER feels right, I think people should do. I just know that nature feels so much more spiritual to me than a building. I have lived by the ocean (California), desert (Arizona), forest (East Coast) and now prairie (Midwest), although I'm not IN the prairie where I live. Lots of trees, streams like East Coast. Each lent itself to being one with nature. Edited October 5, 2023 by GreatDane
akiva Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 16 minutes ago, GreatDane said: Akiva, I do my Wantings during the New Moon, I do my Riddings on a Full Moon. JUST ME. It's a full circle thing. But every night and every morning, when I am outside with my dog, I do a gratitude and affirmation. WHATEVER feels right, I think people should do. I just know that nature feels so much more spiritual to me than a building. The Moon is so powerful, we often take its magnetism for granted in life. Imagine the stories she could tell 🌙 17 minutes ago, GreatDane said: I have lived by the ocean (California), desert (Arizona), forest (East Coast) and now prairie (Midwest), although I'm not IN the prairie where I live. Lots of trees, streams like East Coast. Each lent itself to being one with nature. What would you say your favourite enviroment was? I've only ever lived in two, British countryside and a city, the countryside wins for me hands down! Though when I lived in the city I did make regular trips to the nearest forest and I'd get lost for hours in there 😊
GreatDane Posted October 5, 2023 Author Posted October 5, 2023 Each had it's own energy, Akiva. I lived very close to the beach a couple times in California. I miss going to sleep to the foghorns 🙂 Interesting energy with water. The desert is wild and dangerous. I went on hiking trails, popular ones, but often you wouldn't pass anyone for awhile and there coyotes in the early morning, you had to watch for rattlesnakes, mountain lion attacks, occasionally on more desolate trails, the very rare mountain lion attack on a jogger. I wouldn't go on a trail where it was too easy for something to be above me or where I couldn't see far out. I went with my monster dog (80 pounds of muscle), very sweet but protective and I carried really strong pepper spray. I can't say great for walking meditation as you have to stay a little vigilant, so while there's silence, there's also the odd scary. Love forest, but feels too dense for me sometimes, prairie, well, I don't live in prairie, in fact I have a small forest and stream about five mins from me. I saw plenty of prairie coming here, NOT my fav. It's like nothing nothing nothing...oh look, a cow! Although the tall grass prairie is pretty cool. So I've lived both coasts, the Southwest and now I'm right in the middle 🙂 And I'm a triple Air sign, so WIND, I LIKE WIND. Which we get here. THAT is what most energizes me.
Raggydoll Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 6 hours ago, akiva said: They do make a fascinating read. There's a few spells I want to try from it, but the ingredients are wild 🤣 I'll have to think of some alternatives to all the blood they used as I'm a sucker for spells involving symbols and scripts 😁 I’m currently looking at some old Swedish spells. They are word-spells that don’t need physical ingredients. That’s the type of spells that I like! Very inspiring and it tells me a lot of what they believed in and what mattered to them. I’m sure you have that type of thing where you’re from too!
Raggydoll Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, GreatDane said: And I'm a triple Air sign, so WIND, I LIKE WIND. Which we get here. THAT is what most energizes me. Oh this explains so much 😊 I’m a double Gemini by the way! 😁
GreatDane Posted October 5, 2023 Author Posted October 5, 2023 THAT pic sums up my soul, RD! Sun sign Aquarius, Geminis and Aquarians have a similar vibe 🙂
akiva Posted October 5, 2023 Posted October 5, 2023 5 hours ago, GreatDane said: I lived very close to the beach a couple times in California. I miss going to sleep to the foghorns 🙂 Interesting energy with water. Water tends to live up to its style and shifts and changes into something new, usually with the ocean it's interesting weather. I love mist and fog when it rolls in. 5 hours ago, GreatDane said: The desert is wild and dangerous. I went on hiking trails, popular ones, but often you wouldn't pass anyone for awhile and there coyotes in the early morning, you had to watch for rattlesnakes, mountain lion attacks That's too much adrenaline for a morning walk 😂 5 hours ago, GreatDane said: Love forest, but feels too dense for me sometimes, prairie, well, I don't live in prairie, in fact I have a small forest and stream about five mins from me. I saw plenty of prairie coming here, NOT my fav. It's like nothing nothing nothing...oh look, a cow! Although the tall grass prairie is pretty cool. Woodland is like a happy in-between with forests, not too dense but you still get that ancient vibe from the trees! Prairies sound pretty much like alot of English countryside 😂 just cows and fields and not much else 5 hours ago, Raggydoll said: I’m currently looking at some old Swedish spells. They are word-spells that don’t need physical ingredients. That’s the type of spells that I like! Very inspiring and it tells me a lot of what they believed in and what mattered to them. I’m sure you have that type of thing where you’re from too! We had plenty of those, though from memory they were written down a bit like petitions and stuck above doors and in corners of rooms. Some where latin/Christian prayers, though some were petitions to the planets and the moons nodes for help. I'm still researching, and I've found a book I think might be a good resource 😁
GreatDane Posted October 5, 2023 Author Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) I would like your Woodlands, Akiva! That sounds like my kind of place. Edited October 5, 2023 by GreatDane
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