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How do you deal with a Besançon-type TdM?


Decan
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Here is the question!

Actually a few Tarot of Besançon decks (TdM) are very nice, but for those who don't know, there are 2 cards in them that are different from the other TdM decks: the Popess and Pope.

From what I understood, because of the French Revolution, they didn't want to depict ecclesiastical people anymore, and so replaced the Popess by Junon, and the Pope by Jupiter.

 

But how do you interpret these cards in the Tarot of Besançon? Do you just ignore these changes and apply the meanings of the Popess for the Junon card and the meanings of the Pope for the Jupiter card, or do you apply some particular meanings there, in relation to mythology regarding Junon and Jupiter?

I have doubts about how to deal with this here...

 

ETA: below from the Internet

AnticStore-Large-Ref-89910_02.jpg

Edited by Decan
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My very first deck was a 1JJ Swiss :classic_smile:  I did use the more usual meanings, but actually I like your idea of allowing some mythological element to creep in, or perhaps considering them an influence that comes from 'beyond the stars'? Certainly they could allow one to use a broader view.

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katrinka
6 hours ago, Decan said:

Here is the question!

Actually a few Tarot of Besançon decks (TdM) are very nice, but for those who don't know, there are 2 cards in them that are different from the other TdM decks: the Popess and Pope.

From what I understood, because of the French Revolution, they didn't want to depict ecclesiastical people anymore, and so replaced the Popess by Junon, and the Pope by Jupiter.

 

But how do you interpret these cards in the Tarot of Besançon? Do you just ignore these changes and apply the meanings of the Popess for the Junon card and the meanings of the Pope for the Jupiter card, or do you apply some particular meanings there, in relation to mythology regarding Junon and Jupiter?

I have doubts about how to deal with this here...

 

Don't ignore them, please! Read the deck you're using. 🙂
Juno and Jupiter are thick with meanings. The Petit Oracle des Dames has Juno and Jupiter cards, much more fun than that dusty old Pope. 😄 Juno is read as "Protectoress" in that one, and Jupiter as "Protector" - very auspicious.

Have you seen the Vandenborre? That one has Bacchus at V and the Spanish Captain at II. The Spanish Captain is kind of...dirty, lol. Got to love a Tarot with wine and an off-color joke.

https://tarot-heritage.com/2015/10/22/the-spanish-captain-in-the-vandenborre-deck/

 

Anyway, it's best to read what's on the table - otherwise we might as well just stick with RWS or whatever. 😉

Edited by katrinka
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The Besançon model predates the Revolution, but the pattern was likely modified to appease religious sensibilities. The early tarologists also could not come to any agreement as to the significance of the two cards: some said the symbolism was equivalent, others disagreed.

 

Any decent work on mythology will give some insights into what the figures of Juno and Jupiter may mean. Robert Graves' book springs to mind, there are many others. 

 

But another thing that also springs to mind are the old oracle books that predate cartomancy: some of these divinatory parlour games included entries made up of mythological figures, such as the Oracles Divertissans by de La Colombière ( see page 18, and you'll recognise various other figures too). These may provide you with some ideas on how to adapt a mythical story into a divinatory meaning.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

THANKS!

You gave me great ways to thinks about these 2 cards of the Besançon!

@PathWalker your post was helping and appreciated, thanks! I like what you said about an influence that comes from 'beyond the stars', it's something evocative that can open a door...

 

@katrinka I saw a nice Besançon lately and put it on my wishlist (with some greediness, I recognize it 😁 ), but currently I don't have a copy, however I'm considering this option for the near future...

Yes, Junon and Jupiter are in the Petit Oracle des Dames, that's true, and to read "what is on the table" is definitively to consider! I didn't know the Spanish Captain in the Vandenborre deck, but I don't think I would apply the classical meanings of the Popess for him, it would be something weird to do.

 

@_R_ thanks for posting here, it's much appreciated! I took a look at Wikipedia, and yes, likely during the very first part of the 18th century to don't hurt the protestants and the catholics, I take note! An interfaith Tarot!

Okay, so no agreement regarding how to deal with these 2 cards among tarologists! To weigh the pros and cons is likely something to do.

I will particularly consider the resource by de La Colombière you gave, it looks very interesting; I will see that closely!!

Edited by Decan
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10 hours ago, Decan said:

Actually a few Tarot of Besançon decks (TdM) are very nice, but for those who don't know, there are 2 cards in them that are different from the other TdM decks: the Popess and Pope.

 I've never used a Tarot of Besançon deck, my TdM knowledge base is shamefully poor but I'm making August/September when that changes.  Your post and this thread in general inspired me to go looking for an affordable Tarot of Besançon and discovered one very much to my liking at Deviant Moon called The Resurrected Kirchner Besançon Tarot (1850) 

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28 minutes ago, TheLoracular said:

 I've never used a Tarot of Besançon deck, my TdM knowledge base is shamefully poor but I'm making August/September when that changes.  Your post and this thread in general inspired me to go looking for an affordable Tarot of Besançon and discovered one very much to my liking at Deviant Moon called The Resurrected Kirchner Besançon Tarot (1850) 

I heartily recommend this deck 🙂 it is a treat.

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Posted (edited)

I searched a little bit regarding the Besançon decks and found on Aeclectic (copy-paste below) a non exhaustive list of them.
The one at Deviant Moon is said a Kirchner Besançon (not redesigned or cleaned I think).
I also saw a Johan Jerger Besançon (1801) at Tarot Heritage which looks nice (while not the one I eyed up at first, but...): https://tarot-de-marseille-heritage.com/english/catalogue_jerger1801.html

They also have another one there, the Tarot of Jean Pierre Laurent (1735) with Juno & Jupiter (and as well Popess and Pope included): https://tarot-de-marseille-heritage.com/english/catalogue_laurent1735.html Because of the Moon card and a few other cards too, I prefer the Johan Jerger Besançon though.

 

And I saw a few very nice ones at the Cartomancer (but not for me because in Europe with customs now… well...): https://thecartomancer.bigcartel.com/

They have the Josef Rauch Miller (1780) -not in the list below-, which is richly colored. It probably has a strong presence!

The one edited at Il Meneghello in the past is likely OOP now, I saw nothing at their store.

 

Quote

Renault (c.1825-50)
Jerger (c. 1800-25)
Carey Louis (1793)
Arnoult/Lequart (1758 -ou 48?- reprint 1889)
Kirchner (c.1850-60)
Laudier (?)
J.B. Benois - ed. Meneghello (1818)
J. Blanche (c.1860-80)
Guillaume Mann (?)
Pierre Lachapelle (?)
Jean Pierre LAURENT (XVIII th century)

Source: https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=137143&page=2

 

ETA: I checked and the one (pic) I displayed in my first post is an antique Jerger Besançon, pretty expensive to say the least 😁

https://www.anticstore.com/tarot-de-besancon-par-jacob-jerger-89910P

 

But a 1JJ Swiss mentioned by PathWalker looks a good option too, and very affordable! On the mass market I'm not sure if there is another one; all those that I mentioned above are limited editions or print on demand decks.

 

Okay, this post is a small overview to be completed if you like! 🙂

Edited by Decan
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Posted (edited)

I'm still undecided regarding which Besançon to choose, or should I go to the DE-ENABLE thread? I'm afraid it's what I have to do!! 😁

 

I forgot to mention a little deck I didn't see, the Heri (1730), it has something "right" (and has a Tarot Noblet style, its little size apart)...

 

I read again the Petit Oracle des Dames LWB that @katrinka mentioned in her post, and there are relevant information there, indeed, since there are the Juno and Jupiter cards in this Oracle deck (Juno is N°20, Jupiter N°18).

Both mean "Protection" as it was said, but not only, Juno can depict pride too (of those who have power in society), she can refer to religion (as the Queen of skies) but as well to idolatry. It's not the Popess but I can see the connection here, interesting.

Jupiter is "Protection" too, and as the "God of gods" can depict spiritual leaders, but as well temporal leaders with a function of regulation (a wrath aspect isn't excluded), and indicate honors, consultation/audience, fame (same way, I can see the connection with the Pope card, but the card doesn't overlap this latest).

 

Wikipedia summarizes Juno main functions as it follows: "Goddess of the vital force in her aspects of fertility and as warriors, then, under the influence of Hera, of marriage." Juno is Jupiter'wife (and also his sister).

And for Jupiter: "God of gods, God of the sky, light, thunder and lightning. Provider of earthly goods and protector of the city and the Roman Empire."

 

It's likely a topic to dig about.

Edited by Decan
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1 hour ago, PathWalker said:

Ah the rabbit-hole of collecting TdM types  :classic_smile:  I'm not sure I should contribute any more idea here LOL But thanks to everyone for the great resources.

PW

Actually, I found your input inspiring since these cards are obviously "forces from above" in some way; likely 2 very strong cards when we use this style of deck. Beside another card they probably could highlight something important I guess.

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3 hours ago, Decan said:

I forgot to mention a little deck I didn't see, the Heri (1730), it has something "right" (and has a Tarot Noblet style, its little size apart)...

 

Be careful that you look at the dates when you order. The boxes are very similar: If you want this particular deck be sure you order the 1730!

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Posted (edited)

Yes, true, we need to be careful concerning the Heri since there are 2 different versions.

 

But I finally chose the Joerger/Jerger, it will be fine with me! It’s not that other Besançon style decks aren’t appealing but… just one! 🙂

Edited by Decan
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