How do you read the When questions?

[Aditi]

A lot of times the people I read for have 'when' related questions- When will they get married or when will they hear back from the job thingy? And I find it hard to deduce that. 

I know some people use the numbers in the cards or the astrology aspects to answer that. Does that work accurately in anyone's experience?

Would love to hear if anyone has a technique of reading these. 

[gregory]

You need @Nisaba to show up. She's THE time woman !

 

But I have trouble with most when questions, as they generally make assumptions. "When will I get married ?" well - will they marry at all ? "When will I hear about the job ?" And I have lived through MANY MANY occasions when I applied for a job - once even had an interview - and never heard another word. So... I'm not surprised you find it hard.

[devin]

One method is to give speed values to the majors and suits. For example, you could say that the Chariot & the Tower are fast, while the Hanged Man and High Priestess are slow.

 

The minors can be used in a similar way, with values of fast, fastest, slow, slowest applied to the four suits. 

 

The trick is to then look at the proportion of cards and their values present in a draw and guestimate timing. For example, if a draw comes up with a lot of slow cards, then we could say the event is some time off in the future. If many fast cards are present, the outcome should materialize soon. A mix of cards could indicate the middle distance, weighted slightly one way or the other depending on the mix.

 

This method becomes much more accurate if a time frame is applied to the question (a week, a month, a year, etc.). So, will I get a decent job this year? If the Tarot gives a yes, but with mainly slow cards present, we could say, sure, but nearer the end of the year.

 

Am I making sense?

 

I have heard tell of Nisaba's timing method. I hope she will take the time to throw some illumination on the topic.

Edited July 24, 2021 by devin

[Aditi]

@gregory - that's my problem too! How can we know if that's going to happen? I feel very angsty predicting something because how can we conclusively know? 😑

 

@devin I'll pay attention to the cards and try this the next time!

 

Thank you both for helping out and hopefully @Nisaba guides too!

Edited July 24, 2021 by Aditi

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Aditi said:

A lot of times the people I read for have 'when' related questions- When will they get married or when will they hear back from the job thingy? And I find it hard to deduce that. 

I know some people use the numbers in the cards or the astrology aspects to answer that. Does that work accurately in anyone's experience?

Would love to hear if anyone has a technique of reading these. 

People still think that tarot is a fortune cookie and readers can tell the future. This is why you get 'when' questions.  

[devin]

[REDACTED TO REDUCE BLAH, BLAH, BLAH CONTENT.]

Edited July 24, 2021 by devin

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, Pink said:

People still think that tarot is a fortune cookie and readers can tell the future.

 

😐
I do predictive readings all the time and they're accurate. A lot of us do that. It's part of the job.
It's not foolproof, but nothing really is. I've correctly called all the presidential elections since I started reading except for the 2016 one, and the fault with that was the way I phrased the question. Hillary did get more votes. When it goes wrong, the fault is with the reader. The correct information is always there on the table.

Occasionally, the TV weatherman will get it wrong. But nobody says you "can't predict the weather." Most of the time, if the forecast says rain, you'll be needing an umbrella. Cards certainly have a better hit rate than the weatherman. I'm not sure why there's such a push to say they don't work. Maybe the people pushing that idea just never learned to do it and they're trying to discredit those of us who can.

Nonpredictive readings have only become a thing in recent decades. Before that, cartomancy was virtually all predictive, and what wasn't was at-a-distance stuff, like "Does he miss me?"

 

OTOH, I don't really see predictive fortune cookies. Most of them just seem to contain platitudes like "A warm smile is the calling card of a generous nature" or "When you get something for nothing, you just haven't been billed for it yet." Much like nonpredictive card reading. 😁

 

3 hours ago, devin said:

[REDACTED TO REDUCE BLAH, BLAH, BLAH CONTENT.]

I wouldn't have minded a bit of BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. 😁

Edited July 24, 2021 by katrinka

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, devin said:

One method is to give speed values to the majors and suits. For example, you could say that the Chariot & the Tower are fast, while the Hanged Man and High Priestess are slow.

 

The minors can be used in a similar way, with values of fast, fastest, slow, slowest applied to the four suits. 

 

The trick is to then look at the proportion of cards and their values present in a draw and guestimate timing. For example, if a draw comes up with a lot of slow cards, then we could say the event is some time off in the future. If many fast cards are present, the outcome should materialize soon. A mix of cards could indicate the middle distance, weighted slightly one way or the other depending on the mix.

 

This method becomes much more accurate if a time frame is applied to the question (a week, a month, a year, etc.). So, will I get a decent job this year? If the Tarot gives a yes, but with mainly slow cards present, we could say, sure, but nearer the end of the year.

 

Am I making sense?

 

Yes. This is the most accurate way of doing that I've found.
There are sites that assign timing to individual cards, but that's inherently flawed. You might see something like "four years" for a particular card - harldly relevant if you're just hoping for a package to arrive!

And then there are the numbers, with a five, for example, being five hours, days, weeks, months, etc. That doesn't seem to work all that well, either.

Fast/slow is definitely the way to go, IME. 🙂
 

9 hours ago, devin said:

I have heard tell of Nisaba's timing method. I hope she will take the time to throw some illumination on the topic.

My curiousity is piqued. 😁

[gregory]

I could find the old thread on AT.... but far better if she'd come here and talk about it.

 

But:

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=151427

Edited July 24, 2021 by gregory

[devin]

 

40 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I wouldn't have minded a bit of BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

 

You summarised my blah when you posted the straight mouthed non-smiley. 😐 Much more eloquent. 

 

26 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes. This is the most accurate way of doing that I've found.
There are sites that assign timing to individual cards, but that's inherently flawed. You might see something like "four years" for a particular card - harldly relevant if you're just hoping for a package to arrive!

And then there are the numbers, with a five, for example, being five hours, days, weeks, months, etc. That doesn't seem to work all that well, either.

Fast/slow is definitely the way to go, IME. 🙂

 

Yeah, it can be very, very accurate when paired with time-framed questions. I think I first came across fast/slow guestimates via Dawn Jackson's playing card stuff, and then Andy's Lenormand book gave me the idea of applying it to the majors.

[devin]

11 minutes ago, gregory said:

But:

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=151427

 

👏👏👏

[katrinka]

30 minutes ago, gregory said:

I could find the old thread on AT.... but far better if she'd come here and talk about it.

 

But:

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=151427

 

Thanks.
It seems to be a variation of the fast/slow stuff we were talking about, taken a step further. I'm looking forward to testing it.
The logic seems sound. So much card reading hinges on logic, yet nobody talks about that.

[Sadewa]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

Nonpredictive readings have only become a thing in recent decades. Before that, cartomancy was virtually all predictive, and what wasn't was at-a-distance stuff, like "Does he miss me?"

A lot of readers where I am from claim to not focus on "telling fortunes", but what they are actually trying to do is precisely "telling the future" from my observation.  Honestly, I genuinely feel that a lot of  people I have met who provided non-predictive readings are trying to understand some kind of science through cards,  a science which probably should be studied in a different systematic way.

 

4 hours ago, gregory said:

But:

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=151427

This reminds me of a playing card method shared on the Art of Cartomancy blog, where similar time values are assigned to each suit. 

[Nisaba]

15 hours ago, devin said:

I  have heard tell of Nisaba's timing method. I hope she will take the time to throw some illumination on the topic.

Ah, yes, the mystical ratbag known as Nisaba. Tell me, who was silly enough to let me in? 🤪

 

I've been doing it since some time in the eighties, and it works.

 

Firstly, I keep a deck JUST for timings. I do nothing else with it. I recommend you do too. Make it a deck as bare and unevocative as possible, some of the less interesting Marseille decks are perfect for the job. In particular, you don't want scenes on the minors.

 

Pentacles/Coins, as the slowest element, are years.

Cups, next in speed, are months.

Swords are weeks.

Wands, as the fire that powers all the other elements, is fastest, and measures days.

 

Ace equals 1.

Numbered cards are as numbered.

Pages are 11, Knights are 12, Queens are 13, Kings are 14.

 

You'll notice there's a bit of overlap there: a fortnight, for example, could be expressed as the King Wands or the Two Swords. This is definitely Not A Problem.

 

The  majors are quite specific. too. The message of each of them is the same: "There is no timing, and there can be no timing, until after you deal with {issue of the card} in your life first."

 

When I invented this system, I was a pretty young thing, and now I am a Very Old Thing. I can't remember if it worked from day one, or whether I had to re-educate an unloved and not-scenic deck (the Bologna, still my timing deck) over time. I can say with certainty, though, that his method has worked beautifully for decades.

 

Some people I've told this to, arse-about with the values of the court cards and/or the orders of the suits, then complain to me that it doesn't work. It DOES work - if you don't mess with it.

 

Oh, and a postscript: if if you think this is disrespectful to Tarot (I've been yelled at), or if you don't want to tell clients that they need to fix one thing or another in their life first, you can use playing cards instead. Then Jacks are 11, Queens are 12, Kings are 13. Leave both Jokers in, and any title cards or blank cards. They will have to work overtime to fill in for the Majors ... and they won't tell you what the client has to work on, just that there's work to be done.

 

[Aditi]

Oh!

I'm a newbie to tarot (4 months old) and the question wasn't meant to disrespect any tarot readers or practices (Apologies if it did that). I just wanted to seriously learn from other's techniques and methods, so that I don't feel angsty while reading. 🙂

 

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

When it goes wrong, the fault is with the reader. The correct information is always there on the table.

 

Very true IMO. This always tells me there's a lot to learn personally. 

 

Thank you so much all you beautiful people for sharing your experiences and techniques. 

 

@Nisaba Gosh your approach has me motivated! I'll buy a deck soon and try this out. Thank you for the detailed explanation! 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Aditi

[pacificwaters]

5 hours ago, Nisaba said:

Ah, yes, the mystical ratbag known as Nisaba. Tell me, who was silly enough to let me in? 🤪

 

I've been doing it since some time in the eighties, and it works.

 

Firstly, I keep a deck JUST for timings. I do nothing else with it. I recommend you do too. Make it a deck as bare and unevocative as possible, some of the less interesting Marseille decks are perfect for the job. In particular, you don't want scenes on the minors.

 

Pentacles/Coins, as the slowest element, are years.

Cups, next in speed, are months.

Swords are weeks.

Wands, as the fire that powers all the other elements, is fastest, and measures days.

 

Ace equals 1.

Numbered cards are as numbered.

Pages are 11, Knights are 12, Queens are 13, Kings are 14.

 

You'll notice there's a bit of overlap there: a fortnight, for example, could be expressed as the King Wands or the Two Swords. This is definitely Not A Problem.

 

The  majors are quite specific. too. The message of each of them is the same: "There is no timing, and there can be no timing, until after you deal with {issue of the card} in your life first."

 

When I invented this system, I was a pretty young thing, and now I am a Very Old Thing. I can't remember if it worked from day one, or whether I had to re-educate an unloved and not-scenic deck (the Bologna, still my timing deck) over time. I can say with certainty, though, that his method has worked beautifully for decades.

 

Some people I've told this to, arse-about with the values of the court cards and/or the orders of the suits, then complain to me that it doesn't work. It DOES work - if you don't mess with it.

 

Oh, and a postscript: if if you think this is disrespectful to Tarot (I've been yelled at), or if you don't want to tell clients that they need to fix one thing or another in their life first, you can use playing cards instead. Then Jacks are 11, Queens are 12, Kings are 13. Leave both Jokers in, and any title cards or blank cards. They will have to work overtime to fill in for the Majors ... and they won't tell you what the client has to work on, just that there's work to be done.

 

I am so glad to see you here @Nisaba. Definitely a welcome addition, and your this post was a learning element for me too. I guess i have a deck which i rarely use because it has minimal imagery and i could try this theory there for simple questions and see how it works out!!

[gregory]

5 hours ago, Nisaba said:

Ah, yes, the mystical ratbag known as Nisaba. Tell me, who was silly enough to let me in? 🤪

 

The Excellent Little Fang. But I begged you to show up...  So I demand the credit responsibility..

[devin]

7 hours ago, Nisaba said:

Ah, yes, the mystical ratbag known as Nisaba. Tell me, who was silly enough to let me in? 

 

Yes, very mysterious.

 

Thanks for sharing! The specificity of the method is certainly appealing. I look forward to giving it a go. 

 

Have you seriously been yelled at? Us Tarot readers can be such a vitriolic lot. Then again, I understand being worried about disrespecting the cards. I sometimes feel the Tarot is like one of those Zen masters who intermittently jumps out from behind a corner and beats their students with a stick.

 

I presume you assigned your values based on elemental associations?

 

4 hours ago, Aditi said:

the question wasn't meant to disrespect any tarot readers or practices (Apologies if it did that)

 

It's a great question and made for an interesting thread.

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, devin said:

Have you seriously been yelled at? Us Tarot readers can be such a vitriolic lot. Then again, I understand being worried about disrespecting the cards. I sometimes feel the Tarot is like one of those Zen masters who intermittently jumps out from behind a corner and beats their students with a stick.

 

The Tarot is definitely a Rinzai guy with a stick, and it's perfectly capable of taking care of itself.  I'm sure if it minded being used for timing, it would have been whacking from the beginning.

[Guest]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:56 AM, Aditi said:

A lot of times the people I read for have 'when' related questions- When will they get married or when will they hear back from the job thingy? And I find it hard to deduce that. 

I know some people use the numbers in the cards or the astrology aspects to answer that. Does that work accurately in anyone's experience?

Would love to hear if anyone has a technique of reading these. 

I never do a when question without first ascertaining if something will occur. Not everyone will marry, have children, and so on.  Also, cards can split hairs: someone might live with someone and not marry. 
 

Once ascertained I have a couple of timing methods. One uses the card the significator faces: coins are spring (fire), batons summer (earth), cups are autumn (water) and swords are winter (air).
 

The cards (deuce to king) are the first to thirteenth week of a season, e.g. King of Batons is the thirteenth week of summer.
 

Aces are the season in general.

 

For some questions that require longer time frames coins, batons, cups and swords can be days, weeks, months and years, respectively.

 

I don’t tend to use the trumps for timing. I do have some associations for them: the Bateleur is Wednesday or within three months. 
 

For long term forecasts I do prefer palmistry and astrology (traditional). 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Guest

[TheLoracular]

19 hours ago, katrinka said:

Nonpredictive readings have only become a thing in recent decades. Before that, cartomancy was virtually all predictive, and what wasn't was at-a-distance stuff, like "Does he miss me?"

 True fact.

Most of the time, when I got asked predictive follow-up questions, I rattled off the first answer that came to my head and didn't try and think through "why" I was saying this.    There is one I actually remember clearly for some reason.   This was by phone.   This wasn't the first question the querent asked, she'd asked a couple of others and wanted to throw in one more so I knew she was in love and engaged to a man we'd talked just a little about and she'd liked the answers to those other not directly related questions, don't remember what they were).  But that specific when question was what she then asked. 

Q: "When am I getting married?" 
A:  "In the spring."   (Because I saw a flash of a white dress, sunlight, spring flowers in my mind's eye, I wasn't looking at the cards at all).  

Q: "Really?  That soon?"
A:  (I flipped a new card -- don't remember what deck but an old woman came up)  "I think so and it relates to an older woman, why your fiancé will want to get married then." (why I said her fiancé would be the one to want it?  Dunno.  But it was the right thing to say.)

Q:  "Oh!  That would be his grandmother!   He really wants her there but she's getting hip surgery in June.  So maybe that is what we should do, plan for a wedding like in early May.  Does that sound like a good idea?"

A: (I flipped another card -- 3 of cups)  "Yes.  The 3 of Cups just appeared and that is a card about joyous celebrations.  Early May might be perfect."

..  I never talked to them again, but I got the strong feeling at the time that the wedding did indeed happen, the grandmother was there, and it worked out.  Notice that the prediction itself probably led to the outcome.  Because I'd rattled off the season and provided context for why that was a good idea, the querent then used that to make her plans from there.   Predictive readings, imo, often set things in motion to lead to the predicted outcome and that is just part of divination, always has been.  




  

Edited July 25, 2021 by TheLoracular

[Aditi]

4 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

I never do a when question without first ascertaining if something will occur.

Very true! 

 

Thank you so much for the insights, techniques and experiences! 🙂

Very much appreciate it.

[Nisaba]

20 hours ago, Aditi said:

 

 

@Nisaba Gosh your approach has me motivated! I'll buy a deck soon and try this out. Thank you for the detailed explanation! 

 

 

You are very welcome!

[Nisaba]

17 hours ago, gregory said:

 

The Excellent Little Fang. But I begged you to show up...  So I demand the credit responsibility..

You really do have a masochistic streak. One would think you'd have had enough of me at that other place, and wanted to hide the secret of this forum.

[Nisaba]

15 hours ago, devin said:

Have you seriously been yelled at? Us Tarot readers can be such a vitriolic lot.

 

(Gregory! It worked!) Yeppers. There are a number of us who wrongly believe that Our Way Is The Only Way. Of course, for timings, My Way Is The Only Way. <cackle>

15 hours ago, devin said:

Then again, I understand being worried about disrespecting the cards. I sometimes feel the Tarot is like one of those Zen masters who intermittently jumps out from behind a corner and beats their students with a stick.

I'm sure tarot can punish me adequately, without the need for online contacts to do it on Tarot's behalf.

15 hours ago, devin said:

I presume you assigned your values based on elemental associations?

Exactly and precisely. Fire is raw energy. Earth, Water and Air all need raw energy to move at all. Earth moves slowly, water faster, and air fastest of all (given that it causes ocean waves, an' all).

15 hours ago, devin said:

 

 

It's a great question and made for an interesting thread.

Always good to read the ideas of others on timings, too. I don't have a position in any of my spreads for timings: if a client asks, I'll pull a single card from my timing deck separately.