Reversals in Thoth readings???

[Tarotnewbie]

Hi Everyone,

 

I hope all of you have been doing great. 

 

I got the Thoth deck last year around this time... I have been trying to study the cards and learn the deck well.. the more I learn about Thoth, one thing gets much more clear is that it is a life long study. It blows my mind. I am in absolute awe of this deck!!! I wish I had studied this deck first and then went to RWS... the range this deck offers simply mind boggling.

 

I have looked in a few places but didn't find a satisfactory answer... do we read reversals in Thoth spreads? I know we can take the meanings how they resonate to us while we are making sense of the cards in the spread... but, are there any reverse meaning to these cards at all? 

 

Your answers are highly appreciated. Thank you all very much 🙂 

[gregory]

"We" don;'t do anything - people here vary enormously. I have never seen anyone do this, though, and I know I don't. I know Mary Greer doesn't either, but if you want to read up on Thoth reversed meanings them, the only book I know that discusses this is Snuffin's.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Thoth-Companion-Symbolic-Meaning-Tarot/dp/0738711926

[Tarotnewbie]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

"We" don;'t do anything - people here vary enormously. I have never seen anyone do this, though, and I know I don't. I know Mary Greer doesn't either, but if you want to read up on Thoth reversed meanings them, the only book I know that discusses this is Snuffin's.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/Thoth-Companion-Symbolic-Meaning-Tarot/dp/0738711926

Thank you very much for the response Gregory. Really appreciate your timely help. 🙂 

[KiMo]

This is a really interesting question @Tarotnewbie. When using most decks, certainly the RWS, I do read with reversals. However when I started trying out the Thoth, my instinct was to not use reversals. I’m not sure I can give a clear reason why that would be, but I think it’s to do with the fact that the imagery is so rich and dense with symbolism. My gut feeling was that reversing the cards would just make the complexity of them incomprehensible, and that everything I needed was already in the upright. Of course that’s totally personal to me and others may feel differently!

I was watching a great YouTuber very recently, she much prefers using the Thoth over the RWS, and she was saying that A.E. Waite wanted to try and keep the card meanings a secret to all of those outside of the order, whereas Crowley wanted to make them overt for all to see. (That may be a generalisation and I’m relying on her word for it, but she’s very knowledgable.) Perhaps that’s a contributor to why reversals feel unnecessary when using the Thoth, in my case at least.

[gregory]

I suddenly wonder about the projective geometry. You'd lose that with reversals, I think ? Could that be why reversals feel wrong ? I read somewhere that this is what draws one into the cards - the geometry - and it is certainly interesting to trim a deck and then line cards up using it. (NB use a modern copy - in some older ones the images aren't the exact same size, and the result is a disaster...)

Edited August 3, 2023 by gregory

[fire cat pickles]

52 minutes ago, gregory said:

I suddenly wonder about the projective geometry. You'd lose that with reversals, I think ?

Not to mention elemental dignities. How would that even work with reversals? 

 

https://tarotelements.com/tarot-tutorials/elemental-dignities/

[gregory]

I suppose you can "know what the ED is" whichever way up it is ?

[fire cat pickles]

7 minutes ago, gregory said:

I suppose you can "know what the ED is" whichever way up it is ?

But wouldn't the reversal weaken the effect of the element on the neighboring card? I wonder if Snuffin addresses it in his book.

[gregory]

You'll have to wait - my copy is MILES away !

[fire cat pickles]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

You'll have to wait - my copy is MILES away !

Ok!

[Tarotnewbie]

Thanks everyone… this is so informative and interesting. I need a little time to go through the posts… shall get back to you once i go through these posts at liesure.

[Wyrdkiss]

I began my tarot journey with the Thoth, and have since branched out to RWS and other unique decks like the Deviant Moon, Tarot of Shadows, etc.

 

I will say that Crowley had no use for reversals. I wish I could find quotes to back that up, but it is true -- he found them irrelevant for his creation. IF you look at his work, and the scholar Duquette's, you will find zero mention of them.

 

The reason for this, in my experience, is that each card contains much that is both cautionary as well as encouraging.  They simply are not needed, and become

counter-intuitive.

 

With this said, I am not saying you should not read them if that is what you want to do. if it truly works for you. but I had to chime in here, I cannot imagine

taking a deck that provides a lifetime of learning opportunity and attempting to infuse a different message from the breadth of material that is provided.

Crowley used a lot of spreads, and those function perfectly for such nuance.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Wyrdkiss

[Tarotnewbie]

@KiMo thanks for letting me know your reading style and opinion. It resonates with me a lot. I also don’t feel like considering reversals with this deck… it is like the upright cards give enough information to perceive it in any dignity. This helps. Thank you.

 

@gregory i didn’t even think of the sacred geometry until mentioned it. You make a very interesting observation. Thanks for sharing it.

 

@fire cat pickles another interesting point you bring up. Thanks for sharing the link. I will go through it when i can find sometime to ponder upon it.

[Tarotnewbie]

@Wyrdkiss thanks for chiming in. Thanks for sharing your opinion and insights. Really appreciate it. Thoth is such a information packed deck, life times study it might take me to understand a little of it at least. 
 

I really didn’t expect so many people’s responses. I truly appreciate it. I am getting to learn a lot from all your experiences.

[Guest]

I've worked with the Thoth for years. With my other decks, I almost always read reversals, but for the Thoth I never did. I'd sometimes use dignities, but I found out that my readings turn out just fine even when I dispense with them. 

[Nemia]

I've worked with the Thoth for many years as well, and I never use reversals with it. The cards are so multi-faceted that a simple dichotomy wouldn't do them justice imho. If you journal your readings, you may find over time that certain cards have a special meaning when they're reversed. 

 

From my experience, reading up the meanings of the cards and learning them is not enough to work with the Thoth. It's a deck that can give you great results even if you don't understand all the esoteric lore and Thelemic principles behind it; the art is strong enough to be read intuitively or in a narrative style. (Especially if you use a trimmed deck so that the cards can connect to each other directly). However, the deeper your understanding of the Thoth, the more rewarding reading with it becomes. 

 

I'd strongly advise you to journal  your learning process. There are good books like Snuffin and DuQuette, and weak books like Angeles Arrien and Ziegler who disregard the creator's background and project their own Jungian approach onto the cards. Jungianism is great for other decks but doesn't feel right for the Thoth, at least in my opinion. Go with DuQuette, study the cards, play with them, and they'll reveal their messages. 

 

Astrology is very strong in the Thoth. My recommendation: take out all the cards associated with a certain planet or a certain sign, and try to find out what they have in common. Keep that in mind when you meet the cards in a reading. If you notice for example that you have more than one or two Mercury-related cards in a reading, try to find out what that means right now. Are things changing quickly? Do you need to communicate more clearly? Is somebody trying to pull wool over your eyes? (Mercury moves swiftly, is the messenger of the gods and is the patron of thieves and impostors; he's also psychopompos and can lead your soul through the depths). 

 

Another aspect is Kabbalah (Golden Dawn variety with Jewish roots). I was afraid of Kabbalah for many years but the Thoth taught me. It's a great teacher. If you continue to work with the Thoth, you'll find yourself absorbing more esoteric knowledge than you ever thought you could grasp, and while you do so, the Thoth unlocks itself. 

 

Look for M.M.Meleen's fantastic deck and book: Tabula Mundi. It's Thoth based and lucid, and for me, it threw new light on the Thoth. The Thoth tradition is very much alive and growing, and once you get into it, it will give you so much. 

 

In short: astrology and kabbalah are keys to the deck, and also the art. Reversals are not necessary; each Thoth card contains a multitude of meanings and reducing them to right side up/upside down doesn't do them justice. 

 

But that's only my personal opinion. Do what feels right to you and what you need right now. The Thoth likes that 🙂 

 

[Aeon418]

8 hours ago, Nemia said:

There are good books like Snuffin and DuQuette

 

I would add Marcus Katz to that list. His three volume series, Secrets of the Thoth Tarot, is very good. In particular the first volume that concentrates on the Major Arcana. (Volume One: A Magical Atlas of the Universe. Thelema, Aeons & the Major Arcana.) Unlike Snuffin and DuQuette, Katz books are independently published, which is probably why they have slipped under the radar of many Thoth readers. And the fact that "print-on-demand" books are sometimes a bit of a gamble. However the Kindle version is a lot cheaper.

 

As far as I can tell, Marcus Katz does not advocate reading with reversals. Among the authors who's writing is consistent with Crowley and the Book of Thoth, it appears that Snuffin is the outlier with reversals. But I wonder if that may have been a concession to his publisher, Llewellyn, who tend to cater towards the more "popular" and mass market end of the so-called new age spirituality movement.

[RunningWild]

Just a question.  Has there ever been  a borderless print version of the Thoth deck?  Much as I can see how trimming one would be beneficial, especially when learning, I wouldn't trust my deck trimming abilities (I have done, with mixed feelings about the results, with other decks).

[Wyrdkiss]

1 minute ago, RunningWild said:

Just a question.  Has there ever been  a borderless print version of the Thoth deck?  Much as I can see how trimming one would be beneficial, especially when learning, I wouldn't trust my deck trimming abilities (I have done, with mixed feelings about the results, with other decks).

no, sadly. I had mine laser-trimmed at a  print shop. Well, once of my 6 copies of the Thoth. but even that wasn't great. It really, stunningly pops with out a border. I'll try to post some pics later.  I use this imperfectly cut deck to read on the go, for anyone anytime, as  a travel pack.  The slight DIY feel fits that style. 

[gregory]

I trimmed mine - a pocket sized one bought specifically to trim after I checked the exact image size on all he Thoths I own (many...) - very carefully with quality scissors. I will post images when I get back to it - it really is stunning.

[RunningWild]

21 hours ago, gregory said:

I trimmed mine - a pocket sized one bought specifically to trim after I checked the exact image size on all he Thoths I own (many...) - very carefully with quality scissors. I will post images when I get back to it - it really is stunning.

Thanks gregory, I look forward to seeing them.

[Wyrdkiss]

Here's a few trimmed cards from my travel deck.

 

 

[Tarotnewbie]

@Nemia Thank you so much for your inputs. It helps a lot and resonates with what I have been feeling all along about this deck. I will certainly look into the books that you have suggested. I have started to study a bit about how kabbalah and this deck are related. I understand some of basic astrology, so that is something which i can digest a bit easy than kabbalah as of now. This deck is opening my eyes to so many other parallel concepts... Information is overwhelming and mind boggling. Thanks again for sharing what you know and infer 🙂 I don't feel like reading reversals with this deck... it feels as if the deck is telling me that, "I am bad all by myself, why do you need to put me in the wrong direction :P"

 

@Aeon418 Thank you very much for adding your two cents. I will checkout the books that you've suggested with time. Thanks for pointing out your finding about different authors.

 

@Wyrdkiss the borderless version is so bold, beautiful and enigmatic the imagery pulls me in. Thanks for sharing.

 

@RunningWild thanks for your question, now we have people posting fantastic pics here for us to see. 

 

[gregory]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:20 PM, fire cat pickles said:

But wouldn't the reversal weaken the effect of the element on the neighboring card? I wonder if Snuffin addresses it in his book.

 

OK I'm back. He is very unspecific - most relevant page attached:

 

 

The reversed meanings (actually all the meanings) he gives are almost cursory - most of the book is much more about the symbolism in each card.

 

You could get over to his website and ask:

hermetic.com/osiris/index.htm

 

I haven't the knowledge to ask a sensible question, here.

 

And I will dig out my trimmed deck later - that's not as easy as taking a book off a shelf.

 

ETA indeed it isn't - as it isn't listed in my catalogue (not being exactly in my collection) I'm not at all sure where I filed it.....

Edited August 30, 2023 by gregory

[pacificwaters]

It’s so wonderful to know that you have started your journey with the Thoth deck. All the very best @Tarotnewbie

 

This deck is in a league of its own. And is much different from the RWS clones. As regarding reversals I absolutely second what @gregory has said. On a personal note I found the Thoth so intimidating that I could never muster the courage to think of even attempting reversals.

 

The post by @Nemia makes a whole lot of sense.The book by DuQuette is a very good reference book. Another book I commonly refer is Qabalastic Tarot by Robert Wang. This is my go to book most of the times. Tabula Mundi makes reading with Thoth a little easier as compared to the traditional Thoth deck imho. I like reading with Tabula Mundi as well as the Liber T deck. Both are Thoth based (more so the former) and good to start with. What helped me gain even more insight was applying astrology to the card meanings and seeing how the particular placements depicted by the cards layered an additional meaning to the message!