Kabbalah, astrology, SKT, and various decks

[Natural Mystic Guide]

4 hours ago, Misterei said:

history is written by the victors

So true, or rather history is re-written by the victors.

[Guest]

Now this is something I can get behind @Misterei. While I think the wording of the Folengo text makes it open to other interpretations, the fact that sortilege via playing cards was documented before the 18th century (as in the case of the de Borja lady that you mentioned) makes me accept that even if Dummett et al's assertion about secular Tarocchi has still not been overturned, the possibility that it may have been used in divination pre-Gebelin should not simply be discounted. Thank you! 

[Scandinavianhermit]

Anyone wishing to read about the connection between astrology and authentic Jewish proto-Kabbalah and its later Kabbalistic interpreters ought to read Aryeh Kaplan's translation: Sefer Yetzirah (spelled like this). It will become obvious, that several different systems of correspondences between Hebrew letters, elements, astrological planets and the twelve zodiacal signs were in existence within Judaism, and that neither French nor British gentile 19th century Occultists were satisfied with the existing Jewish systems of correspondences, but thought it necessary to invent their own systems. It is quite an eye-opener.

[Flegetanis]

I'm brand new to the forum, but this topic is my proverbial bread & butter.

 

I see a few questions flying around, and I think I may be able to help a bit. 

 

First of all, there is definitely a place for theoretical astrology in Judaism. Astrology - was, for a very long time, the basic "system of classification" from Classical times, throughout the Middle Ages, & well into the Renaissance. Hence we have terms like "Jovial," "Martial," and - my favorite - "Lunacy."  Chaucer begins the Canterbury Tales by setting the early Spring scene "when the Sun, in the Ram, has run half it's course." It's just an important part of literacy of the times. And, of course, it's impossible to study Kabbalah in any depth without some familiarity with it.

As for practical astrology, opinions are varied. What I learned was that Jews are basically not allowed to practice horary astrology, calculating fortuitous times, or signs, or portents, as Jews should not be subject to the influences of the stars, as that lowers their station in the Celestial Order (my own grandiose words). Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto teaches in Derech HaShem, that the Firmament is divided into two parts, the physical, comprised of the actual stars & planets, corresponding to the lowest triad of the Tree of Life; and the metaphysical, comprised of all the Angelic hosts. The latter operate through the former for all natural purposes, but supernaturally can be bypassed - through merit or magick - to work directly with the Celestial Intelligences.

Natal astrology, however, is considered to have some measure of validity, but only revealing natural tendencies that the individual may avoid or exploit as seems fit. But this operates on a literal "gut," Nefesh level, rather than the transcendent levels of the Soul.

-----------------------------

 

 

[Flegetanis]

As for the origins of playing cards, gambling, & Jews, I developed a working theory about a Jewish origin for the Tarot. I don't necessarily believe it as fact, but it's as good a "foundational legend" as any other:

It is interesting to note that there are two Jewish holidays that are not derived from the Torah, but were enacted by the Rabbis at the time of, and after, the canonization of the Jewish "bible." One is Purim, that is literally named after the pieces of parchment that were, according to some rabbinical sources (e.g., Me'Am Loez) inscribed with astrological symbols and picked at random to set the date for the destruction of the Jews. Interestingly, there's a lot of Tarot (& Pagan) symbolism one can read into the Book of Esther (literally a deliberate pun on "Ishtar"), including the names of the sefirot, Keter & Malkhut.

Jump ahead an empire, and we have Hannukah, when the Jews hid their study session under the guise of gambling. But the Dreidl is from Renaissance Europe; what were they gambling with under the Seleucids?

 

[Flegetanis]

An interesting point I should make, at this point, is that all of the above information was crucial to a Rabbinical Court not only allowing me to use the Tarot, but encouraging me to design my own back in 1987.

 

As for Jewish applications of the Qabalistic Tarot, it comes down - in my opinion - to how the Hebrew letters are attributed to the paths - Netivot - between the sefirot of the Tree of Life. The French & British Rosicrucian circles of the 19th century followed the attributions set by some Jesuit in the 1600s (Athanasius Kircher), while the various Jewish Trees of Life all follow Sefer Yetzirah in drawing the paths in the first place to correspond with the divisions of the Hebrew letters into groups of 3, 7, & 12. These can be found in the Aryeh Kaplan edition of that book mentioned in a previous comment. [Interestingly, Aryeh Kaplan also translated both sources I've cited here; Derech HaShem, by R. Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, as well as the Me'Am Loez series of commentaries on TaNa"Kh.]

[Flegetanis]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:52 AM, Scandinavianhermit said:

Anyone wishing to read about the connection between astrology and authentic Jewish proto-Kabbalah and its later Kabbalistic interpreters ought to read Aryeh Kaplan's translation: Sefer Yetzirah (spelled like this). It will become obvious, that several different systems of correspondences between Hebrew letters, elements, astrological planets and the twelve zodiacal signs were in existence within Judaism, and that neither French nor British gentile 19th century Occultists were satisfied with the existing Jewish systems of correspondences, but thought it necessary to invent their own systems. It is quite an eye-opener.

 

While two of his Kabbalistic masterpieces - Sefer Yetzirah and Inner Space - were published posthumously, Kaplan has some great books that came out during his lifetime, such as Meditation and the Bible, Meditation and Kabbalah, & the sources I mentioned in my own replies. But of particular interest - in regards to Esoteric Tarot in particular - are a series of booklets he wrote for NCSY/OU on various individual topics, several of which are essentially in-depth explorations of diverse Jewish practices & beliefs. One explains the full significance of the letter Mem -- the ritual bath, origin of Baptism, which has very real correspondences with XII: The Hanged Man, and even the "Sleep of Shiloam" mentioned by Crowley in The Book of Thoth. There are also booklets on Jerusalem and on the Sabbath, both of which have profound significance in relationship to the Path of Tav, XXI: The World, & the sefirah of Malkhut. All three of these can be found - conveniently - in The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology Volume II.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Misterei]

21 hours ago, Flegetanis said:

... there is definitely a place for theoretical astrology in Judaism. ...

Most of these comments vis a vis Jewish Kabbalah are over my head ... but one thing moderns seem to forget ...

Until somewhat recently ... the zodiac was the calendar. There was no division between astronomy and astrology. EVERYONE from India to Europe and all the places in between used the zodiac as their calendar.

So yes, the distinctions between horary and natal are valid if certain religions forbid or encouraged these practices ... but NO ONE would forbid astrology as a blanket statement ... it would be like forbidding people to have calendars.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:36 AM, Flegetanis said:

An interesting point I should make, at this point, is that all of the above information was crucial to a Rabbinical Court not only allowing me to use the Tarot, but encouraging me to design my own back in 1987.

I am just curious to know if this was an Orthodox beit din that gave you this ruling.  I ultimately broke off my engagement to an Orthodox Jewish man over my professional use of Tarot as a counseling tool.  I had located an Orthodox Rabbi who was prepared to issue an opinion regarding the use of Tarot.  (He was interesting because he used astrology a lot.)  He, of blessed memory, regrettably, transitioned out of this lifetime before he could give this opinion.  I have encountered a lot of resistance to Tarot in the Orthodox Jewish world.

[Nemia]

On 2/14/2024 at 3:36 AM, Flegetanis said:

As for the origins of playing cards, gambling, & Jews, I developed a working theory about a Jewish origin for the Tarot. I don't necessarily believe it as fact, but it's as good a "foundational legend" as any other:

 

On 2/14/2024 at 3:36 AM, Flegetanis said:

Jump ahead an empire, and we have Hannukah, when the Jews hid their study session under the guise of gambling. But the Dreidl is from Renaissance Europe; what were they gambling with under the Seleucids?

 

 

I didn't check it out, but they might have used knucklebones as dice? The shape of the sevivon/dreidel looks like a dice with a top and point added. 

[Flegetanis]

11 hours ago, Natural Mystic Guide said:

I am just curious to know if this was an Orthodox beit din that gave you this ruling.  I ultimately broke off my engagement to an Orthodox Jewish man over my professional use of Tarot as a counseling tool.  I had located an Orthodox Rabbi who was prepared to issue an opinion regarding the use of Tarot.  (He was interesting because he used astrology a lot.)  He, of blessed memory, regrettably, transitioned out of this lifetime before he could give this opinion.  I have encountered a lot of resistance to Tarot in the Orthodox Jewish world.

 

Yes, indeed: it was an Orthodox Beis Din held at Diaspora Yeshiva some time in early 1987, convened and presided over by R. Mordechai Goldstein, ZTz"L. He, too, has unfortunately passed. It helped that I didn't ask the original question, although my own statements were the basis for it. I was then brought in to present the argument in favor of recognizing the Tarot as a functional tool -- although not necessarily encouraging it's use. But they did a lot more that merely not forbidding it.

 

A large part of this was R. Goldstein encouraging students to make serious, challenging arguments. Apparently, I made a good impression because, not only did they shock me as I thought it overwhelmingly unlikely they would rule in my favor, but R. Goldstein also advanced me a class in the school.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Flegetanis]

7 hours ago, Nemia said:

I didn't check it out, but they might have used knucklebones as dice? The shape of the sevivon/dreidel looks like a dice with a top and point added. 

 

Wow, sevivon! I don't think I've ever seen that Anglicized (Romanized)!

 

Of course that's a possibility. In fact, that's another rabbinical description of how Haman cast his "pur." The whole point is that it's all open to reasonable speculation.

 

My theory consciously works backwards from the Tarot, though. Could it have a Jewish origin? What would be a scenario for that? Is it reasonable? 

It also answers a question I would immediately have, as to how dice would represent Torah concepts. My scenario answers that question before it's even asked. 

 

But the fourfold markings on the dreidl lead in another interesting direction, altogether, and will easily have me going off on a bunch of stuff that I'll skip, for now, and get to the most immediately pertinent results concerning Tarot interests. 

In his book The Mitzvah Candle, the MaHaRa"L (of golem fame) describes the Four Empires of Daniel's vision in terms that are explicitly Elemental, with Babylon being Fire, Persia & Medea Water, Greece Air, & Rome Earth. Following this, I divided the four suits of the Minor Arcana accordingly.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Scandinavianhermit]

17 hours ago, Misterei said:

Until somewhat recently ... the zodiac was the calendar. There was no division between astronomy and astrology. EVERYONE from India to Europe and all the places in between used the zodiac as their calendar.

Unlike the Gregorian calendar, which is purely solar (and therefore Zodiac-related) and unlike the Islamic calendar, which is purely lunar (resulting in a 354 or 355 days year), the Hebrew calendar and the East Asian calendar (which began in China) are very, very similar, in that regard, that both of them attempt to take both the solar cycle in the (tropical) Zodiac and lunar cycles in consideration, so they are compromises.

 

Sefer Yetzirah treats months (according to the Jewish calendar) and zodiac signs as equivalent, but there are limits to that equivalence. New moon does not coincide exactly with the Sun's entry into a new zodiac sign, and the equivalence doesn't work at all in years with a leap month.

 

I haven't checked if Jews and East Asians insert the leap month the same year, or if they apply the Metonic and Hipparchic cycles dissimilarly. Does anyone know?

[Scandinavianhermit]

1 hour ago, Flegetanis said:

In his book The Mitzvah Candle, the MaHaRa"L (of golem fame) describes the Four Empires of Daniel's vision in terms that are explicitly Elemental, with Babylon being Fire, Persia & Medea Water, Greece Air, & Rome Earth. Following this, I divided the four suits of the Minor Arcana accordingly.

 

 

A very clever system! I'm impressed!

[Flegetanis]

28 minutes ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Unlike the Gregorian calendar, which is purely solar (and therefore Zodiac-related) and unlike the Islamic calendar, which is purely lunar (resulting in a 354 or 355 days year), the Hebrew calendar and the East Asian calendar (which began in China) are very, very similar, in that regard, that both of them attempt to take both the solar cycle in the (tropical) Zodiac and lunar cycles in consideration, so they are compromises.

 

Sefer Yetzirah treats months (according to the Jewish calendar) and zodiac signs as equivalent, but there are limits to that equivalence. New moon does not coincide exactly with the Sun's entry into a new zodiac sign, and the equivalence doesn't work at all in years withand this is not my first conversation on the topic. a leap month.

 

I haven't checked if Jews and East Asians insert the leap month the same year, or if they apply the Metonic and Hipparchic cycles dissimilarly. Does anyone know?

 

To paraphrase; "Does anyone know if they apply the Metonic and Hipparchic cycles dissimilarly?"

I don't know those terms, but if you can define them, I'm sure I know the answer. To the best of my knowledge, it's completely separate. [FWIW, "the best of my knowledge" includes years of coven practice with a brother who's a Taoist priest, and this is not the first time I've had this conversation.☯️]

 

For example, the Jewish New Year is the 1st of Tishrei.... described in the Torah as "the first day of the seventh month"; so it's actually the 1st of Nisan, and indeed, the extra month is added just before Nisan. The Jewish calendar is set so that Passover is always the first Full Moon of Spring.... It is very inaccurate to say that "the equivalence doesn't work at all in years with a leap month." That's just not the case, as there's a long Winter stretch without any major Jewish holidays that have significance in both Solar & Lunar cycles... So it usually catches up, but it doesn't always work out precisely. Whenever Passover comes after Easter, this is what's going on.

For example, this year is a Jewish Leap Year, and we have what I consider - in my own syncretic system - our "Blue Moon" this year. In this case, the first Full Moon of Spring will actually be Purim, that last Full Moon of Winter in the Jewish calendar. In leap years, when the extra month is added, this holiday is celebrated in the 13th month! Even cooler, this Full Moon occasionally lines up, as it does this year, pretty exactly with the Spring Equinox!

 

So, in honor of the common misconception that "Ostara" comes from the goddess name(s) "Ishtar" or "Astarte," I call my ritual for this special occasion "Esthara" (the Hebrew name "Esther" actually being a deliberate pun on "Ishtar").

Edited February 15, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Scandinavianhermit]

1 hour ago, Flegetanis said:

My theory consciously works backwards from the Tarot, though. Could it have a Jewish origin? What would be a scenario for that? Is it reasonable? 

The socio-cultural setting, in which expensive hand painted tarot decks emerged, was the Catholic Christian aristocracy in the countries located in the northern part of the Italian peninsula in the mid-15th century, so during the early phase of emergence of the Milanese tarot deck Jewish participation is unlikely.

 

The number of trumps + wildcard varied for quite some time, though, and the figure 22 isn't attested with full certainty until the early-to-mid 16th century.

 

In 1423, there seem to have existed decks with only eight trumps in Ferrara. In 1541, a 14 trumps deck is attested in Ferrara. The Devil and the Tower are lacking among the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi from the 1450s or 1560s. The Popess, despite included in the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi,  is not mentioned in a poem listing the trumps in c. 1500, and neither is she part of the sequence of trumps in the Minchiate deck, so the poem might reflect a state of flux in early tarot design. The woodblock-printed Budapest Sheets form the earliest attestation of the sequence of 21 trumps and one wildcard as we know tarot today, but the Budapest Sheets are difficult to date: Anything between c. 1475 and c. 1550 is possible. 

 

There are a few interesting circumstances to consider:

• Unlike the, once tolerant, but increasingly hostile, environment in Spain, many of the self-governing duchies and republics in the north of the Italian peninsula during the Renaissance allowed Jews to settle and practice their religion.
• When Spain forced Sephardic Jews to either convert or go into exile elsewhere in 1492, some of them moved to the duchies and republics mentioned above.
• Until the mid-15th century, gentiles were unaware of the existence of Kabbalah. From the middle of the 15th century, Catholic Christians in Florence, Switzerland and the Papal State (Pico de la Mirandola, Johann Reuchlin, Cardinal Viterbo) became interested in Kabbalah, and began to design a Christian equivalent, dependent on sources from Rabbinical Kabbalah. That development is far too late to explain the development of north Italian playingcard decks with additional trumps, but it coincide in time with the standardisation of a tarot deck with exactly 21 trumps and one wildcard (22).

[Scandinavianhermit]

There is the Sola-Busca deck from 1490, of course. The number of trumps + wildcard ends up in the number 22, but I wouldn't call trumps like Nebuchadnezzar, Gaius Marius and Emperor Nero "Milanese tarot as we know it".

[Scandinavianhermit]

1 hour ago, Flegetanis said:

 

To paraphrase; "Does anyone know if they apply the Metonic and Hipparchic cycles dissimilarly?"

I don't know those terms, but if you can define them, I'm sure I know the answer. To the best of my knowledge, it's completely separate. [FWIW, "the best of my knowledge" includes years of coven practice with a brother who's a Taoist priest, and this is not the first time I've had this conversation.☯️]

After the consummation of 19 solar years, moon phases coincide with equinoxes and solstices again, and the Metonic 19 year cycle is the briefest mechanism any predictable lunisolar calendar has to take into consideration.

 

Any lunisolar calendar, be it Hebrew, East Asian, South Asian or ancient Athenian, has to insert seven leap months (or, as you put it, blue moons), during a time period of 19 years.

 

An exact Metonic cycle  is 2 hours, 4 minutes and 58 seconds longer than 19 calendar years, so, after a considerable amount of time, it has to be adjusted to make up for this time difference. For this purpose, Calippus came up with a 76 year cycle, which only goes wrong after 553 years. Likewise, Hipparchus came up with a 304 year cycle. 

 

If anyone would construct a lunisolar calendar from scratch, and is unaware of other lunisolar calendars, the probability of using one and the same starting point for the cycle is 1 out of 19, so I'm not that surprised to hear, that East Asian leap years do not coincide with leap years in the Hebrew calendar.

 

 

[Flegetanis]

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

The socio-cultural setting, in which expensive hand painted tarot decks emerged, was the Catholic Christian aristocracy in the countries located in the northern part of the Italian peninsula in the mid-15th century, so during the early phase of emergence of the Milanese tarot deck Jewish participation is unlikely.

 

OK, I'm going to say it one more time. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just playing a game of possibilities, here. The system I describe from Rabbinical sources resembles something a lot closer to the Runes than to "expensive hand painted tarot decks" of the Late Middle Ages. But the accumulation of a body of knowledge that emerged publicly in 13th century Spain - which became known by a number of names, the simplest of which is "Qabalah" - layered on top of that primitive system is too intriguing in the light of a structure that just works too well with Qabalistic models that certainly were well established before the 15th century.

 

The point I make in the original essay from 1990 is that Jewish Qabalists, seeing persecution in Medieval & Renaissance Europe, and already having an Exilic tradition of hiding studying under the guise of gambling, would easily look at the Tarocchi, remember Hanukah traditions and go, "Ooh!"

 

That's the full extent of my point.

[Flegetanis]

The "Metonic" 19 year cycle is used for the Jewish calendar. Other calculations are described in a number of rabbinical works, and one of my personal teachers was the son of R. Yechiel Tukachinsky, who was the premier specialist in this, and who calculated where the Jewish calendar presently is relative to the counting of Shmittah & Jubilee years. So I know what you're talking about, just in a different language.

[Scandinavianhermit]

7 minutes ago, Flegetanis said:

OK, I'm going to say it one more time. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just playing a game of possibilities, here.

I'm approaching the series of events from another starting point than you.

 

In the mid-19th century, Eliphas Levi made exaggerated claims about the tarot being intentionally designed according to a Kabbalistic structure from the beginning of tarot design, and he also misdated the birth of Kabbalah and the birth of tarot.

 

We now know, that Rabbinical Kabbalah began in the late 12th and early 13th century, when Isaac the Blind and his disciples reinterpreted Sepher Yetzirah and produced Sepher ha-Bahir, and their thought was mainly received and developed by Sephardic Jews in the Iberian Peninsula (Azriel, the Kohen brothers, Gikatilla, Abulafia, Moses de León) during the 13th century. We also know about how fluid the design of trionfi trumps was between 1423 and the early 16th century.

 

For quite some time now, art historians have been ridiculing any proposed link between tarot and Kabbalah happening before the 1850s.

 

What I try to do cautiously, is to propose the possibility (and not more), that the eventual Milanese decision to stick with exactly 21 trumps + 1 wildcard (equalling the number of Hebrew letters) could have been done under the influence of recently arrived Sephardic Jews knowledgeable about Kabbalah, and under the influence of Catholic renaissance humanists interested in Rabbinical Kabbalah. Before the migration of Sephardic Jews to northern italian countries, Ottoman Palestine (Safed in particular) and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Kabbalah wasn't much practiced outside of Spain and Portugal, so a confluence of (preexisting) Kabbalah and (preexisting) trionfi cards couldn't have happened until Sephardic Kabbalists had arrived in northern Italy, i.e. during the later phase of the emergence of standard tarot.

 

I admit that one could argue, that the rush of refugees in 1492 was preceded by a small trickle during the 14th and 15th centuries when Jewish life in Spain became increasingly precarious, but the willingness of Catholic renaissance humanists to listen to Rabbinical Kabbalists belong to a time period beginning in the 1480s.

[Scandinavianhermit]

53 minutes ago, Flegetanis said:

The "Metonic" 19 year cycle is used for the Jewish calendar. Other calculations are described in a number of rabbinical works, and one of my personal teachers was the son of R. Yechiel Tukachinsky, who was the premier specialist in this, and who calculated where the Jewish calendar presently is relative to the counting of Shmittah & Jubilee years. So I know what you're talking about, just in a different language.

Fascinating! I'm able to relate to the problem with writing in a foreign language. I may be perceived as blunt, when I try to be polite, and I have difficulty choosing correct prepositions, because there do not exist any one-to-one equivalents between Swedish and English prepositions. The existing overlap between how prepositions are used is only partial, and therefore somewhat confusing.

[Scandinavianhermit]

In order to clarify my position even more: I find a kabbalistic approach to tarot useful. Usefulness doesn't imply any particular view on historical events. Whether tarot became kabbalised in the late 15th century, the early 16th century, the 1780s or the 1850s is not something that add or detract from its usefulness today.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

15 hours ago, Flegetanis said:

Yes, indeed: it was an Orthodox Beis Din held at Diaspora Yeshiva some time in early 1987, convened and presided over by R. Mordechai Goldstein, ZTz"L

Great to hear of this!  I am glad that you are here in this community.  I'm looking forward to hearing more.  A Jewish perspective rather than a Golden Dawn/New Age perspective is fairly rare.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:36 AM, Flegetanis said:

As for the origins of playing cards, gambling, & Jews, I developed a working theory about a Jewish origin for the Tarot.

So I presume that you are familiar with Dovid Krafchow and Kabbalistic Tarot; and Stav Appel and torahtarot.com, yes?