Kabbalah, astrology, SKT, and various decks

[Misterei]

@Natural Mystic Guide @Scandinavianhermit @Flegetanis

Hello,

All of you have at times mentioned your studies of traditional Judaic Kabbalah vs. the GD "hermetic" version.

I am hoping you might help me in a bit of research as Kabalalah is NOT my area of expertise!

 

I'm familiar with the GD Kabalah numerology:

3 = Binah = Saturn

5 = Geburah = Mars

6= Tipharet = Sun

9 = Moon

[and so on]

 

Is there any equivalent in Traditional Judaic Kabbalah?

The same? Different? Doesn't apply?

 

I appreciate any help in this direction from those more versed in it than I.

[Scandinavianhermit]

In a longer historical perspective, @Misterei, using GD as the starting point and working backwards is a red herring, because GD fused at least two different numerological systems. 

 

Sepher Yetzirah, written at some time between 200 CE and 600 CE, is a very difficult work. The language is cryptic, but it seems like the words sephira and sephirot originally referred to the numbers 1-10. The use of the same words about ten divine emanations out of the ineffable godhood –The Unlimited (Ain Soph)– began among the circle of disciples around Isaac the Blind around c. 1200, and a fully fleshed out system of sephirot in this latter sense is present in Ha-Bahir and commented on by Joseph Gikatilla in the Iberian peninsula.

 

When GD associate the numbers 3-9 with planets, they transmit an originally Persian, Khorasmian or Arabic (or even possibly Harranian) technique of astrological talismanic magic, that can also be put to a contemplative use, and this technique was born out of mathematics. A square consisting of nine smaller squares (with a side of three squares in all directions) with the numbers 1-9 arranged so that every side end up in the sum 15 and the entire square in the sum 45 became associated with Saturn, similarly arranged squares with other planets or luminaries, like this:

 

PLANET -SQUARES ALONG SIDE -TOTAL NUMBER OF SQUARES -SUM OF SIDE -SUM OF ENTIRE SQUARE

Saturn.....3......................................9..................................................15.....................45

Jupiter.....4.....................................16.................................................34.....................136

Mars........5.....................................25.................................................65.....................325

Sun..........6.....................................36.................................................111....................666

Venus......7.....................................49.................................................175...................1225

Mercury..8.....................................64.................................................260..................2080

Moon......9.....................................81.................................................369...................3321

 

GD got this idea from Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa (1486-1535), who got it from Picatrix (written in Arabic probably during the 11th century, translated into Spanish at the request of King Alphonso X in c. 1257, later into Latin).

 

If we stick with the idea of squares with all sides ending up with the same sum in all directions, such squares associated with contemplation of the sephiroth are attested within rabbinical Kabbalah since the days of Joseph Tzayach (1505-1573), according to the following system:

 

SEPHIRAH .....................-SQUARES ALONG SIDE -TOTAL NUMBER OF SQUARES -SUM OF SIDE

Keter..............................10......................................100.............................................505

Chokmah......................11.......................................121.............................................671

Binah............................12......................................144.............................................860

Chesed/Gedullah..........13.....................................169............................................1105

Gevurah/Pachad/Din....14.....................................196............................................1379

Tipheret/Racham.........16.....................................256.............................................2056

Netzach.......................17.....................................289.............................................2465

Hod.............................18.....................................324.............................................2925

Yesod/Tsaddiq............19......................................361.............................................3439

Malkut.........................20.....................................400.............................................4010

[Scandinavianhermit]

I'm sorry, "fused two different systems of numerology" doesn't convey what try to say. This is one of the risks with writing during insomnia. Please allow me to return to the subject matter, when I'm thoroughly rested.

[Misterei]

18 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Sepher Yetzirah, written at some time between 200 CE and 600 CE, is a very difficult work. The language is cryptic, but it seems like the words sephira and sephirot originally referred to the numbers 1-10. ... Joseph Gikatilla in the Iberian peninsula.

 

When GD associate the numbers 3-9 with planets, they transmit an originally Persian, Khorasmian or Arabic (or even possibly Harranian) technique of astrological talismanic magic, ... GD got this idea from Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa (1486-1535), who got it from Picatrix (written in Arabic probably during the 11th century, translated into Spanish at the request of King Alphonso X in c. 1257, later into Latin):

 

PLANET -SQUARES ALONG SIDE -TOTAL NUMBER OF SQUARES -SUM OF SIDE -SUM OF ENTIRE SQUARE

Saturn.....3......................................9..................................................15.....................45

Jupiter.....4.....................................16.................................................34.....................136

Mars........5.....................................25.................................................65.....................325

Sun..........6.....................................36.................................................111....................666

Venus......7.....................................49.................................................175...................1225

Mercury..8.....................................64.................................................260..................2080

Moon......9.....................................81.................................................369...................3321

@Scandinavianhermit thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I'm somewhat familiar with Picatrix and that Arab-Iberian school of astrology. And of course the number system above.

 

You mention text and person Sepher Yetzira and Gikatilla which I'm not familiar ... so I guess that's my question:  Is there anything in the actual Judaic esoterica that has an astrological numerology? Or is it purely the invention of the GD to superimpose this stuff onto Tree of Life?

Or are you saying the Jews DID superimpose this system onto the kabbalah ... but they got the idea from the Persians / Arabs?

18 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

... This is one of the risks with writing during insomnia. Please allow me to return to the subject matter, when I'm thoroughly rested.

Please sleep well!

[Scandinavianhermit]

17 hours ago, Misterei said:

 

Or are you saying the Jews DID superimpose this system onto the kabbalah ... but they got the idea from the Persians / Arabs?

Yes, this is what I say. Jews, Moslems and Christians exchanged ideas to a greater extent than many persons today would expect, and this exchange went on in all directions. For example, we find a subtle influence from rabbinical Kabbalah on Theresa of Avila (1515-1582), the reformer of the Carmelite Order and now a doctor of the Catholic church. Catherine Swietlicki has written about that. Western Christian ceremonial magic, as it emerged in the kingdom of Naples during the rule of Frederick II (1194-1250) and Spain during the rule of Alfonso X (1221-1284), is another example, because it is full of borrowings from Jewish and Islamic magic. 

 

The fact, that Joseph Tzayach continued counting from 10 for his sephirotic squares, shows, that he was aware of the use of squares with a side of 3-9 for planetary purposes. It also demonstrates that he did not identify influences from the planets with influences from the sephirot, because sephirot belongs to a higher order. Sephirot are divine attributes. Planets are objects corresponding to the letters. In Sepher Yetzirah, planets and luminaries are associated with letters.

 

In the thought of Isaac Luria (c. 1534-1572), seven sephirot would eventually become associated with the letters of the paths immediately above them, according to this system:

 

Chesed: Bet: Moon

Gevurah: Gimel: Mars

Tipheret: Dalet: Sun

Netzatch: Kaf: Venus

Hod: Pe : Mercury

Yesod: Resh: Saturn

Malkut: Tav: Jupiter

 

This structure differ considerably from the Tree of Life depicted by Athanasius Kircher (d. 1680), a Jesuit trying to describe Kabbalah, and GD based its system of Kircher's Tree of Life. The Lurianic system above harmonise well with the alchemical treatise Esh Metzareph (late 16th or early 17th century), which was popularised among an educated gentile readership, thanks to Christian Knorr von Rosenroth (1636-1689).

 

[Scandinavianhermit]

18 hours ago, Misterei said:

 

You mention text and person Sepher Yetzira and Gikatilla which I'm not familiar ...

Joseph Gikatilla (1248-c. 1304) was a kabbalist in Spain, who wrote Sha'are Orah, a summary about the ten sephirot. All subsequent kabbalistic works are dependent on Sha'are Orah, including Zohar, which eclipsed Sha'are Orah in importance. As Avi Weinstein writes in the introduction to his translation Gates of Light (AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, CA, 1994), and I paraphrase: There were three kabbalistic renaissances in Jewish history. The first in late 13th century Castile, the second in 16th century Safed, the third in 18th century Poland-Ukraine.

[Scandinavianhermit]

I may add, that, although kabbalistic thought has existed even outside the confines of Judaism since the 1480s, both those who take an interest in the Christian Kabbalah of Johann Reuchlin, Cardinal Viterbo and Pater Athanasius Kircher SJ and those who take an interest in the 19th century French or Anglophone developments out of Agrippa's 16th century Neo-Hermeticist Kabbalah would do well by studying the original Jewish sources of Kabbalah, in order to understand the roots of one's own system and in order to prevent, that one's own preferred system doesn't freewheel out of any resemblance to its roots. Oops! I did a Thomas Mann there!

 

Gershom Scholem had some (in)famously harsh words to say about Eliphas Levi, Papus and Aleister Crowley (Scholem: Kabbalah, Meridian/Penguin Group, New York, NY & Harmondsworth, Middlesex, 1978, p. 203), perhaps too harsh, but they serve as a reminder to adherents of any branch of Kabbalah, gentile or not, to remember one's historical roots and be grateful to former generations. Gratitude can't be wrong, can it?

 

A reasonable starter kit for anyone curious about Kabbalah of whichever flavour is:

• Joseph Dan: Kabbalah : A very short introduction (2007)
• (Tr. Aryeh Kaplan): Sefer Yetzirah : The Book of Creation (1990)
• (Tr. Aryeh Kaplan): The Bahir (1979)
• (Ed. Joseph Dan, tr. Ronald C. Kiener): The Early Kabbalah (1986)
• Joseph Gikatilla (tr. Avi Weinstein): Gates of Light (1994)
• (Tr. Eliahu Klein): Kabbalah of Creation : The Mysticism of Isaac Luria, Founder of Modern Kabbalah (2000)

The Zohar on the other hand, in whichever translation available, is a monstrously large work, demanding knowledge, maturity and the financial ability to buy all the volumes. It's not for everyone. A scholarly translation by Daniel Matt was concluded recently, but there also exist at least two older translations (the Soncino and the Ashlag commentary). 

[Flegetanis]

 

On 2/16/2024 at 12:52 PM, Misterei said:

@Natural Mystic Guide @Scandinavianhermit @Flegetanis

Hello,

All of you have at times mentioned your studies of traditional Judaic Kabbalah vs. the GD "hermetic" version.

I am hoping you might help me in a bit of research as Kabalalah is NOT my area of expertise!

 

I'm familiar with the GD Kabalah numerology:

3 = Binah = Saturn

5 = Geburah = Mars

6= Tipharet = Sun

9 = Moon

[and so on]

 

Is there any equivalent in Traditional Judaic Kabbalah?

The same? Different? Doesn't apply?

 

I appreciate any help in this direction from those more versed in it than I.

 

The Ptolemaic geocentric model is, I believe, the origin for the numbering of the planets/planetary planes. The numbers are relative to their perceived speed as they move through the Zodiac (which is number "2" in this schema), Saturn (3) being the slowest, and the Moon (9) being the fastest. The correspondence of the geocentric spheres and the sfirot have practical value. However, many Jewish Qabalists have rejected this correspondence, although Gikatilla embraces it. As a follower of his writings in particular, I, do, as well.

 

Edited February 18, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Flegetanis]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:58 PM, Scandinavianhermit said:

Fascinating! I'm able to relate to the problem with writing in a foreign language. I may be perceived as blunt, when I try to be polite, and I have difficulty choosing correct prepositions, because there do not exist any one-to-one equivalents between Swedish and English prepositions. The existing overlap between how prepositions are used is only partial, and therefore somewhat confusing.

I had a similar issue some years ago, discussing the Runes with a Swede in a Qabalistic forum. There's so much information to communicate, it's easy to have misunderstandings. Especially now, when we're talking about yet another language.

[Flegetanis]

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

In the thought of Isaac Luria (c. 1534-1572), seven sephirot would eventually become associated with the letters of the paths immediately above them, according to this system:

 

Chesed: Bet: Moon

Gevurah: Gimel: Mars

Tipheret: Dalet: Sun

Netzatch: Kaf: Venus

Hod: Pe : Mercury

Yesod: Resh: Saturn

Malkut: Tav: Jupiter

 

This structure differ considerably from the Tree of Life depicted by Athanasius Kircher (d. 1680), a Jesuit trying to describe Kabbalah, and GD based its system of Kircher's Tree of Life. The Lurianic system above harmonise well with the alchemical treatise Esh Metzareph (late 16th or early 17th century), which was popularised among an educated gentile readership, thanks to Christian Knorr von Rosenroth (1636-1689).

 

 

This is exactly where I depart from all Golden Dawn material, in that I use these path attributions, but retain the HOGD atributions of the planets to the letters (it's an old drawing, I misspelled "Reishit"). Much of my insight regarding the dynamics of the Major Arcana on the Tree of Life are derived from Gikatilla's Ginat Egoz. This source was also instrumental in reconciling Sefer Yetzirah & the attributes of the Tetragrammaton on the Tree.

Edited February 18, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Flegetanis]

2 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Joseph Gikatilla (1248-c. 1304) was a kabbalist in Spain, who wrote Sha'are Orah, a summary about the ten sephirot. All subsequent kabbalistic works are dependent on Sha'are Orah, including Zohar, which eclipsed Sha'are Orah in importance. As Avi Weinstein writes in the introduction to his translation Gates of Light (AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, CA, 1994), and I paraphrase: There were three kabbalistic renaissances in Jewish history. The first in late 13th century Castile, the second in 16th century Safed, the third in 18th century Poland-Ukraine.

 

Rabbi Isaac Luria called Shaarei Orah the key to all Qabalah (I think Kaplan gives that quote in Meditation And Kabbalah). The Weinstein translation is tricky, but - right now - it's the only game in town.

[Misterei]

8 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Yes, this is what I say. Jews, Moslems and Christians exchanged ideas to a greater extent than many persons today would expect, and this exchange went on in all directions….

 
… Joseph Tzayach continued counting from 10 for his sephirotic squares, shows, that he was aware of the use of squares with a side of 3-9 for planetary purposes. It also demonstrates that he did not identify influences from the planets with influences from the sephirot, because sephirot belongs to a higher order. Sephirot are divine attributes. Planets are objects corresponding to the letters. In Sepher Yetzirah, planets and luminaries are associated with letters.

 

In the thought of Isaac Luria (c. 1534-1572), seven sephirot would eventually become associated with the letters of the paths immediately above them, according to this system:

 

Chesed: Bet: Moon

Gevurah: Gimel: Mars

Tipheret: Dalet: Sun

Netzatch: Kaf: Venus

Hod: Pe : Mercury

Yesod: Resh: Saturn

Malkut: Tav: Jupiter

Thank you for explaining. Helps a great deal. And yes … Even Indian / Hindu ideas came into the Picatrix and into Islamic, Christian, and apparently also Judaic occultism. I’ve been studying it from the Indian angle.

I’ve heard of Luria. LOL I tried to read Zohar but gave up. Anyway, this helps a lot!

[Misterei]

6 hours ago, Flegetanis said:

The Ptolemaic geocentric model is, I believe, the origin for the numbering of the planets/planetary planes. The numbers are relative to their perceived speed as they move through the Zodiac (which is number "2" in this schema), Saturn (3) being the slowest, and the Moon (9) being the fastest. The correspondence of the geocentric spheres and the sfirot have practical value. However, many Jewish Qabalists have rejected this correspondence, although Gikatilla embraces it. As a follower of his writings in particular, I, do, as well.

 

Thanks for reply. I’m familiar with the Ptolemaic diagrams you posted. Thanks for the commentary about some of the Jewish Kabalists rejecting it but Gikatilla accepting it. This helps understand the situation.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

On 2/17/2024 at 2:52 AM, Misterei said:

 

On 2/17/2024 at 2:52 AM, Misterei said:

I am hoping you might help me in a bit of research as Kabalalah is NOT my area of expertise!

Kabbalah is certainly not my area of expertise, either.  I don't have the Hebrew literacy or the inclination, really, to study it.  I do prefer systems that are based on Jewish spirituality rather than the co-opted and tampered with Kabbalah characteristic of most 'kabbalah' that finds its way into Western Hermetic Tarot.  I'm very respectful of mature Jewish scholars who do study Kaballah.

[Flegetanis]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:24 AM, Natural Mystic Guide said:

 

I briefly knew Jill Hammer a long time ago, back in NY. I was on the Underground River & Tel Shemesh lists.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

2 hours ago, Flegetanis said:

I briefly knew Jill Hammer

I was ordained in the second cohort of Kohenet The Hebrew Priestess Institute.  So my Tarot Netivot system is largely based on the cosmology that Jill Hammer puts forth in her Book of Days and in the teachings about the netivot that originate with Jill Hammer and Taya Shere.

[Flegetanis]

I found a Hebrew version of the geocentric model, including the planetary spheres, in Sefer Raziel HaMalaakh. The top 12 circles are the signs of the Zodiac, each with six angels for a total of 72. Those are the angels attributed, in pairs, to the 36 Decans & the Minor Arcana.

 

Edited February 26, 2024 by Flegetanis
Further explanation of the image, punctuation

[Misterei]

@Flegetanis great image. Thanks for posting.

[Deian]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:53 AM, Misterei said:

I tried to read Zohar but gave up.

 

May need to know some of the terminology before, in my humble view. There aren't many mentions of the Planets by name, however. But there is a quote, that may be helpful if one is researching this. Bergs translation from their website:

 

Quote

Ha'azinu: Verse 14
כְּמָה דְּתָנֵינָן, אר"ש, תָּנֵינָן בְּאִינּוּן בָּרַיְיתֵי, דִּלְגַבֵּי דְּכָל הָנֵי שַׁבְעִין כִּתְרִין דְּמַלְכָּא. לָקֳבְלֵיהוֹן שַׁוְויָין ז' רְקִיעִין, וְז' כֺּכָבַיָא דְּרַהֲטִין וְאַזְלִין, וְקָרֵי לוֹן שְׁמָהָן בִּשְׁמָהָן. ואע"ג דְּשַׁוְויָין כֻּלְּהוּ כִּסְאֵי דִּרְקִיעִין, דְּשִׁבְעָה כֺּכָבַיָא, שַׁבְּתַאי, צֶדֶק, מַאֲדִים, חַמָּה, נוֹגַהּ, כּוֹכָב, לְבָנָה. וְשָׁוִין אִלֵּין לָקֳבֵיל אִלֵּין, בְּכִסּוּיָא דְּמִלִּין. לְגַבֵּי אִינּוּן דִּכְתִּיב, יַעַמְדוּ נָא וְיוֹשִׁיעוּךְ הוֹבְרֵי שָׁמַיִם הַחוֹזִים בַּכֺּכָבִים. כֻּלְּהוּ מִלִּין מִתְכַּסְּיָין, ואע"ג דְּלָאו אוֹרְחֵי דְּאוֹרַיְיתָא. וַאֲנָן בָּתַר אוֹרְחִין דְּאוֹרַיְיתָא קָא אַזְלֵינָן, כְּמָה דִּכְתִּיב וַיִּקְרָא לָהֶן שֵׁמוֹת כַּשֵּׁמוֹת אֲשֶׁר קָרָא לָהֶן אָבִיו, כְּמָה דְּמַלִּיל קוּדְשָׁא בְּרִיךְ הוּא, אָזְלֵינָן, וּבַהֲדֵיהּ אָזְלֵינָן, כְּמָה דִּכְתִּיב וְהָלַכְתָּ בִּדְרָכָיו.

 

As we learned, Rabbi Shimon said, We learned in all these B'raitot that all these seventy Sfirot of the King are compared to seven firmaments and seven planets that run to and fro, and they are called by PHYSICAL names. But though they conceal all the firmaments, THAT IS, THEY ARE CALLED BY NAMES THAT ALLUDE TO THEIR INNER, SECRET ASPECT, as for the seven planets, Shabtai (Saturn), Tzedek (Jupiter), Ma'adim (Mars), Chamah (Sun), Nogah (Venus), Cochav (Mercury), Levanah (Moon) they relate these SEVEN SUPERNAL SFIROT to those NAMES OF THE PLANETS, WISHING to conceal matters, NAMELY, regarding those OF WHOM it is written, "Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save you" (Yeshayah 47:13). They conceal matters UNDER THESE NAMES, even though they are not the ways of the Torah BUT ASTROLOGICAL LANGUAGE. But we follow the ways of the Torah, NAMELY, ALLUDE TO EVERYTHING AND CONCEAL IT WITH WORDS OF TORAH, as it is written, "and he called their names after the names by which his father had called them" (Beresheet 26:18), namely, we follow the words of the Holy One, blessed be He, NAMELY THE LANGUAGE OF THE TORAH, and walk with Him, as it is written, "and walk in His ways" (Devarim 28:9).

 

 

When it comes to reading it... From an outsider perspective,I think it can't be read like normal book. At least in my humble view. G.D. members may had a lot of problems, but they got that part correctly, if one tries it like that they won't remember anything. We read few sentences then give it a day or a few days, then read them again. They "unfold" and stuff. And seems wise to remind that reading what is out there first, may be needed to get the terminology.

 

As far as Tarot goes, I don't focus on the history much. In my view, this stuff can come from two places, either from outside(people, books etc.) or within/above.

And people pick it up when open and appropriate. Even if the physical link is lost, someone may pick it up somewhere far away or at other times thinking it was their idea initially. In the same way, even if it goes through too many people and its initial structure is lost, there can always be people that connect to that and return it to the original "blueprint".

 

Just my view of course... And at the end of the day, I studied this long, long time ago and have forgotten much of what seem valid then, so just to add some alternative point of view,  wise to not take it too, seriously.

[Misterei]

6 hours ago, Deian said:

... I don't focus on the history much. In my view, this stuff can come from two places, either from outside(people, books etc.) or within/above.

Interesting quote about the secret names of the Planets.

 

I see Tarot as a combo of those 2 places [book learning and inner reflection]. And yes, some books must be read very slowly b/c they're meant to inspire inner reflection.

 

I do love history ... although I come at Tarocchi from the NeoPlatonic side of things. I beleive Kabbalah was a much later addition either from the Jews themselves [1600s France] or from the Occultists we all know so well. Maybe both ... as the Occultists must have got the idea somewhere ...??? This is a joy of Hermetic mysteries ... trying to connect the dots ... Egypt, Judaica, Greece, Arabia ...

[Deian]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

 

 True, true... I usually work the other way around, try to study stuff far away from each other and focus on what they view in the same way. If they noticed it independently and it stays in use long enough, one can guess it has to be part of the structure. Intuition and stuff as half of it - of course, great, but need history or geometry or something else to ground it, I agree. In this case the structure, 3+1 worlds, elements and sephirot fit into all sorts of traditions. For me the connecting part is geometry, usually. Not my idea, of course, and not all of them would agree I think.
  But it makes things easier, as we need them to work geometrically to be valid.
 
  You mentioned  Court de Gèbelin, I was wondering about that part. Mathers seem sure the Tarot was with Egyptian roots and was based on book from him it seems...
  Quote:
 "Taro, he says, is pure Egyptian; from TAR, Path, and RO, ROS, or ROG, Royal--the Royal Path of Life."
 
 Yet I couldn't find that meanings in todays dictionaries and material in Ancient Egyptian. Rosetta Stone and all, wouldn't have "Tar" in any way or form, and I get there are ways to derive how some of this may sounded, but I'm not sure how reliable that can be...
 
 I was curious about that... In my language some decades ago I remember there was a book with just 22 pages, each describing Egyptian initiation and with a card above it... There were differences, but they were recognizable from the Major Arcana. Never knew the author or where it was from, however, don't even know if I can find it now, but I do like the idea the cards may have been used in Ancient Egypt. What do you think?

 
 I don't think Tarot could be part of Kabbalah/Judaism back then and not be in the Zohar. Also there is the idea we don't know how their Tree looked, have seen the idea the Tree Kircher used can be seen in Egypt, but haven't seen a photo so far, so I think it makes sense to ignore that idea. While if we view them as the planets, that seems to partially be the idea of the quote, then there is no "tree" other then the candle holder, its just the Solar System structure(2 planets between us and the Sun in the center, we view from Earth, but center is Sun then veils for planets not seen from here and everything else, while the middle pillar becomes the Luminaries, Moon, Sun and the Stars etc.)
 Plato seem to have some Egyptian connection as well, right?With Atlantis story and all... Some people believe he was thought by people with heavy relation to Ancient Egypt...
 
 
 At the end of the day it makes sense.
 

[Misterei]

2 hours ago, Deian said:

 Quote:
 "Taro, he says, is pure Egyptian; from TAR, Path, and RO, ROS, or ROG, Royal--the Royal Path of Life."

As far as I know this is "fakelore" [i.e. fake history which abounded in Tarot circles for years].

 

The historic connection between Tarot and Egypt is indirect. The astrology and philosophy in "The Hermetica" and "Plato" for example. Latin translations of The Hermetica and Plato were circulating in Florence, Venice, Milan around the time Tarocchi was invented. The wealthy families who commissioned the first Tarocchis likely read these new translations and *possbily* wanted visual references painted into their Tarocchi trumps. Frex, the Chariot card as platonic symbolism of the tripartate soul. But of course also with their own family members as models for these high ideals 😠

 

Egypt and Tarocchi? Yes, vis a vis Greco-Egyptian Hellenism.. Alexandria Egypt was the capital. But the pan-Hellenic world spanned Greece to India. From Persia we see Babylonian and Chaldean astrology into the mix. We might assume some Egyptian and Jewish philosophy as well. Remnants of this ancient knowledge [Hermetica, Plato] surfaced in Renaissance Italy where they were translated into Latin and ***possibly/probably*** referenced in Tarocchi illustrations.

Edited April 27, 2024 by Misterei

[Deian]

13 hours ago, Misterei said:

As far as I know this is "fakelore" [i.e. fake history which abounded in Tarot circles for years].

 

The historic connection between Tarot and Egypt is indirect. The astrology and philosophy in "The Hermetica" and "Plato" for example. Latin translations of The Hermetica and Plato were circulating in Florence, Venice, Milan around the time Tarocchi was invented. The wealthy families who commissioned the first Tarocchis likely read these new translations and *possbily* wanted visual references painted into their Tarocchi trumps. Frex, the Chariot card as platonic symbolism of the tripartate soul. But of course also with their own family members as models for these high ideals 😠

 

Egypt and Tarocchi? Yes, vis a vis Greco-Egyptian Hellenism.. Alexandria Egypt was the capital. But the pan-Hellenic world spanned Greece to India. From Persia we see Babylonian and Chaldean astrology into the mix. We might assume some Egyptian and Jewish philosophy as well. Remnants of this ancient knowledge [Hermetica, Plato] surfaced in Renaissance Italy where they were translated into Latin and ***possibly/probably*** referenced in Tarocchi illustrations.

It makes sense, true. I can imagine somewhere out there to make that to reflect some concepts that they saw.
Yet if we look at the practical aspect we do need "structure". Well, maybe not "need", but without it there is much missing, in my humble view.
As there is structural component to it. 4 suits with 10+4 cards, 22 major arcana etc.

 

And we can see they relate to each other. The Empress relates to the Emperor in different way then they both do to the Hanged Man.
As they carry forward the image of "Governance" that doesn't exist in other cards in that same way. If we look at it most of the cards carry similar relations with other cards.

So they mean something relating to each other then they never will mean relating to other cards. For example Moon>Sun>Star all can be viewed as carrying Images of "Cosmic", but if added together one after another we get extending, "reaching out" etc.
Then if we say there is no structure, we lose that and without it it may be challenging to make a meaningful reading, in my humble view. Or we have to add it on our own, but that will take a very long time to learn, as we don't have the structure its suppose to provide that, then will have to go through all possible permutations one by one with experience and that is just very slow thing to do.

 

In that sense whoever made that they had to decide how they will split the world into 22 and 4x10 in a way that will reflect all that can possible happen in their life.

I don't know, but I do think there has to be structure, as if we look at the cards we can see it.
I tried some of the classic texts from back then, Corpus Hermeticum etc.
Couldn't see so easily defined the same structure we see in the cards. So either it came from somewhere else, or I just haven't seen the material it was based on. But should be out there. And if it isn't, then using the Tree is a good choice, in my humble view.

 

 

[Misterei]

6 hours ago, Deian said:

... As there is structural component to it. 4 suits with 10+4 cards, 22 major arcana etc.

...  Couldn't see so easily defined the same structure we see in the cards. So either it came from somewhere else, or I just haven't seen the material it was based on. But should be out there. And if it isn't, then using the Tree is a good choice, in my humble view.

Europeans got the 4 suits x 10 cards + Courts from the Chinese via the Mamluks [turko-arabic people] in the 1100s. The mamluks had these cards to play a game called Kings and Deputies. Originally [circa 1100s] it had nothing to do with Kabbalah.

 

The 22 Triunfi are a different animal added in 1400s Italy ***possbily/probably*** from Neoplantonic philosphy.

 

The Kabbala connection happened much later ... in 1700s France or possibly as early as 1600s France as one Jewish scholar suggests it came from "hidden Jews" attempting to hide Jewish philosophy "in plain sight". These were times of Inquistions when Jews had to practice in secret and pretend to be Catholics. Even in 1400s Italy the only way Neoplatonic philosophy might have been hidden in the 22 Triunfi is b/c the Pope at the time was of the Borgia family ... and thus more liberal about such matters than some of the other popes.

 

[Deian]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

Europeans got the 4 suits x 10 cards + Courts from the Chinese via the Mamluks [turko-arabic people] in the 1100s. The mamluks had these cards to play a game called Kings and Deputies. Originally [circa 1100s] it had nothing to do with Kabbalah.

 

The 22 Triunfi are a different animal added in 1400s Italy ***possbily/probably*** from Neoplantonic philosphy.

 

The Kabbala connection happened much later ... in 1700s France or possibly as early as 1600s France as one Jewish scholar suggests it came from "hidden Jews" attempting to hide Jewish philosophy "in plain sight". These were times of Inquistions when Jews had to practice in secret and pretend to be Catholics. Even in 1400s Italy the only way Neoplatonic philosophy might have been hidden in the 22 Triunfi is b/c the Pope at the time was of the Borgia family ... and thus more liberal about such matters than some of the other popes.

 

I see. That could be, they do seem to use 4 and 10, although to be fair they do use any other number in some place too.

 

I wonder about Atlantis. May sound strange now, but Plato did describe it in great detail and there are places in Africa now, that look like what would been left from it...
Chinese systems seem to go back to Fu Xi with the idea he was the last survivor of a great flood... Yet that flood is in cultures all around the Earth, and people usually date it around 12,500-14,000 years back.

Fascinating question, where would that much water come from, and that is somewhat covered in the metaphysical literature, but also interesting direction for research if one believe the story(and I think it seems very valid).

But there was a lot going on before that, in my humble opinion. If we view the same historical documents we date the Egyptian dynasties from, we can see that long time ago they depicted rulers that were governing there for thousands and thousands of years(including Thoth).

 

https://www.gigalresearch.com/uk/publications-pharaohs.php

In Sumerian tablets there is also the idea of the "ones that came from above" and ruled there...

Makes one wonder if what happened before 12-14000 years is a lot more interesting then what happened after...

 

Anyway, how is all that connected to astrology and Kabbalah... Well, if we want to go to where it all started, it seems we may need to go further back then the civilizations we know today. As they seem, in many cases, to have the story of "carrying it" from outside in some form. Fu Xi provided already finished systems for China even if initially that was just the Trigrams, "the ones that came from above" for Sumer, Mayans in America carry the story of the ones that build the cities there, with the idea they went to India and other places as well, even the Torah is received on top of a mountain, as far as the story goes... Many other native american tribes carry the same idea, some even trace a path among the stars of where they will go next...

So I don't know. But I think it may be interesting to go a lot further back sometimes.
Yet practically... Well, we all use what we find meaning in, at the end of the day.
But I get your idea Tarot may have not come from Kabbalah originally, and that sounds very much possible, sure.