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Historic LeNormand Spreads?


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Posted

I know this isn't really a thing. Mostly its just GT, smaller Tableaux, or Lines.

But I've become curious about trying spreads with LN ... at least historic ones.

 

@akiva you had sent me an historic spread called Grand Star in my PMs.

You also mentioned Grand Cross as a LN spread ... are these 2 different spreads?

If yes, how do you do Grand Cross?

I saw a Youtuber do a LN Grand Cross but I trust your methods more than hers 😉

Posted

I like the 9 card box spreads. You can do it with 3 rows meaning past, present and future, corners are the context or framing of the question, middle card is the main theme. The columns seem to have different associations to different people, I've seen Conscious, unconscious and reality. I have done about the issue, answer to the question and hidden information. Also seen what's on my mind, current situation and undercurrents. They are all pretty similar. Some people read the diagonals and you can use knighting and mirroring with it.

 

Katrinka and Andy gave us this spread to use in the Lenormand Circle, also a box spread but uses a diamond in it....

 

1 2 3

4 5 6

7 8 9

First read the corners, 1+9 and 3+7. That's the boundaries of the spread - and the situation.
Then read inner diamond, 2+4+5+6+8, for what will happen.

 

I still use the centre card as the core issue of the reading or theme.

 

AndyB has many good spreads in his book, we cannot copy here due to copyright. But worth reading through them.

Posted
1 hour ago, Misterei said:

@akiva you had sent me an historic spread called Grand Star in my PMs.

You also mentioned Grand Cross as a LN spread ... are these 2 different spreads?

If yes, how do you do Grand Cross?

I saw a Youtuber do a LN Grand Cross but I trust your methods more than hers 😉

I use the same method for all decks tbh, it keeps it simple 🤣

 

Screenshot_20230918_191741_Drive.thumb.jpg.5197a5a8189ec5ac5d03238295494463.jpg

 

This is the version I do and it's very adaptable regarding postions. So feel free to make your own up!

 

I've crudely colour coded it to make explaining a bit easier. How you lay the cards isn't so important, but card 1 is under the purple rectangle, that's the significator. It can be a person card from the lenormand deck, or the house card for domestic questions, or fish for money, etc.

 

Card 13 (the last card) crosses the significator much like a CC, but it's the final say, or the tone of the reading, much like a triage en croix. 

 

The card marked green are the past, or events that have created the situation at hand. The two outer green ones 10 & 12 are additional insights to this.

 

I tend to read the cards marked yellow as obstacles the querent/subject will face regarding the question. 

 

The cards in dark red are what will happen very soon. The next events to unfold basically.

 

The pink pair are details needed to be known about the present

 

The blue pair are for the more distant future, how things look further down the line.

 

And the purple card is like the synthesis or final say. If this card is positive and the spread more negative it can have an alleviating effect and vice versa.

 

Let me know if thats clear enough 😅 I also know of other ways to read this spread with different positional meanings 😁

Posted

@akiva thanks for reply! Yes, this is the one I had called Grand Star in my PMs. I like your color coding. Easy to follow! OK I'm gonna try it.

 

The Youtuber does a different Grand Cross which is interesting but her explanation is hard to follow and she gives no context if it's historic or she created it herself.

Posted

Is it tarotdaily? There's a Russian variant which is historical, but it's read differently and uses more cards! This version is French 😁

Posted
30 minutes ago, akiva said:

Is it tarotdaily? There's a Russian variant which is historical, but it's read differently and uses more cards! This version is French 😁

Georgina Toland channel. On YT search Lenormand Grand Cross. It's the first result [for me, anyway].

 

Posted

I'll check it out tomorrow and compare it to my method 😁

Posted
10 hours ago, Misterei said:

Georgina Toland channel. On YT search Lenormand Grand Cross. It's the first result [for me, anyway].

 

Just checked it out, what part of her explanation did you struggle with? I'm sure I've seen this spread somewhere before. It could be a historical spread, though I imagine the spread positionings have been changed 😊

Posted
4 hours ago, akiva said:

... what part of her explanation did you struggle with? I....

The center card seems to be just the deck identifier?

How can we have a cross spread with the central position blank?

Makes no sense to my mind.

 

Also she wandered off topic into Suit meanings. LOL I'm easily distracted. Plus I got mad about no context [i.e. historic vs. self created or modified]. I'm prolly too picky considering its a free youtube 🙄

Posted
20 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

I like the 9 card box spreads. You can do it with 3 rows meaning past, present and future, corners are the context or framing of the question, middle card is the main theme.

Thanks for explanation. For some reason every LN 9-card box has been a fail for me. Including the traditional method you mention [corners and cross].

I want to give one more attempt at a cross or star shape to see if this works.

 

I may discover that I need "open" reading method for LN ... i.e. tableaux or lines where I read with no set positions. Not sure if my practice will evolve this way ... but if stars and cross shape spreads don't work for me ... I'm going to stick to open reading.

Posted

@akiva LOL this is crazy. I have a free [I donated $2 for it] PDF download of Telling Fortunes by Cards and there is no page 139 in my version. It gives a scary complex Grand Star here with basically no instructions

Screenshot2024-04-24at10_08_18AM.thumb.png.35381c6bb99736d307b3d7f21dba1a6a.png

 

And what looks like the grand Cross Toland was using here

 

Screenshot2024-04-24at10_12_39AM.thumb.png.18c9194e5f0c277fecf3155b08cb7fb8.png

Posted

LOL I just came online to tell you I found a similar spread in the very book you've just got! It's the one by Foli isn't it? It's also in Platts book named the star of 15 🤣

 

In the older version the center card has 3 cards placed upon it, which are kind of read seperate from the arms of the cross itself.

Posted (edited)

An attempt at reading the Grand Cross from Foli book and Toland YT ... winging it since I didn't understand ANY of the instructions:

@akiva Yes, my PDF is the Foli book.

Deck: Urania Blaue Eule

 

Question: How will the shot tomorrow go?

  1. Method. I shuffled then searched the deck for the Scythe as karaka for an injection
  2. I split the deck into cards on "left" side of the Scythe and "right" side of Scythe
  3. I laid Scythe in the center, then laid from the pile on the left the cards below and the cards to left of center
  4. From the "right" pile I laid cards above and right of center

**EDIT** I moved the actual interpretation over to my journal as it seemed a bit too personal to be on topic*******

 

IMG_6881.thumb.JPG.0d4a876a3065858379a9175aa3002145.JPG

Edited by Misterei
Posted

Questions that have arisen doing LN Spreads:

 

The original "Philippe Lenormand" instructions apply only to Grand Tableau using Method of Distance. No other techniques are mentioned. Yet when we do "spreads" we must use techniques like Pairing, Mirroring, etc. And assign positional meanings [past, future, etc]

 

Using a spread [as opposed to a tableau] renders it impossible to do a pure Method of Distance reading. There's no guarantee the Person card will appear [unless you intentionally shuffle it into the mix]. If you sihuffle-in the Person card, then you get some random placement ... but the "rules" for most spreads are that the Significator / Person is placed at the Center. Which kinda makes MOD meaningless.

But if we apply all these techniques, like assigned positions [past present future, etc.] are we still reading LN?

Or are we now just turning them into simplified / secular Tarots?

 

Many of the methods [counting, mirroring] seem like they might arise organically as people read cards. Other methods [like chaining houses] are taken from Astrology [dispositors].

I have a friend who was born in 1939 and did what was probably Piquet [?] as a teen and young lady using 32 card stripped deck. She laid 12-card spreads as per the 12 houses of the Zodiac and got her card meanings from a book.

 

It seems that even LN boils down to "Open reading" methods vs. Assigned position methods. Which are the same 2 basic techniques in Tarot. The oriiginal MOD for reading GT would count as an Open reading method. The cards' meaning isn't derived from an assigned position, but only from their relationship to other cards.

 

We might call the spreads Assigned Positions [spreads] vs. Relative Positions [open reading / MOD].

 

Thoughts? If anyone actually read this far? Which do you prefer?

Posted
2 hours ago, Misterei said:

Using a spread [as opposed to a tableau] renders it impossible to do a pure Method of Distance reading. There's no guarantee the Person card will appear [unless you intentionally shuffle it into the mix]. If you sihuffle-in the Person card, then you get some random placement ... but the "rules" for most spreads are that the Significator / Person is placed at the Center. Which kinda makes MOD meaningless.

It's not necessarily meaningless. If you have a cross spread like what you've done above, the cards that start the rows are at a distance from the significator and become increasingly near the closer to the significator they are. Obviously this requires taking the male/female card out and placing it at the center of the spread, which can be crossed by a random card. That way you get the best of both worlds.

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

I have a friend who was born in 1939 and did what was probably Piquet [?] as a teen and young lady using 32 card stripped deck. She laid 12-card spreads as per the 12 houses of the Zodiac and got her card meanings from a book.

I've seen this method, Sepherial (1914) mentions it and I think Minetta (1918) and Cicely Kent (1921) then add to it in their books years later, here's a picture of it:

Screenshot_20240425_183206_Drive.thumb.jpg.fdab244c3465e194a691e9cd7fb2c8b4.jpg

 

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

Thoughts? If anyone actually read this far? Which do you prefer?

I like to use both. Though if I use Lenormand in positional spreads it needs to be multiple cards per position, as opposed to a single card per position with tarot. I don't tend to use MOD often in GT's or spreads though, I like to try and just stick to the core meanings of the cards for simplicity 😁

Posted

@akiva OMG! That Wheel looks a bit like the Grand Star from Foli book ... but it's not. OY!

My elderly friend only used 12 cards in her readings. Literally one card per zodiac house. So she wasn't using this Wheel you've pictured.

 

Yes, if we use positional spreads in LN it must be 2-3 per position [or whatnot].

I will make myself try this as an experiment ... but I'm already starting to feel thast I prefer the "open" methods with LN. Whereas give me assigned positions with Tarot!

Posted
1 minute ago, Misterei said:

@akiva OMG! That Wheel looks a bit like the Grand Star from Foli book ... but it's not. OY!

My elderly friend only used 12 cards in her readings. Literally one card per zodiac house. So she wasn't using this Wheel you've pictured.

Foli's grand star is a hot mess imo 🤣

 

I wonder if your friend was reading the cards based on suit then? Sepherial mentions that diamond cards are strong in the 1st house, hearts in the 7th, clubs in the 10th and spades in the 4th.

It would be difficult to read them singularly, though not impossible 🤔

 

5 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Yes, if we use positional spreads in LN it must be 2-3 per position [or whatnot].

I will make myself try this as an experiment ... but I'm already starting to feel thast I prefer the "open" methods with LN. Whereas give me assigned positions with Tarot!

If you like the open style readings then definitely do what you enjoy, though experimenting is always fun! 😁 Do you have Caitlin Matthews lenormand book? There's a spread in there that looks 'traditional' and she uses near far to read it.

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, akiva said:

Foli's grand star is a hot mess imo 🤣

 

I wonder if your friend was reading the cards based on suit then? Sepherial mentions that diamond cards are strong in the 1st house, hearts in the 7th, clubs in the 10th and spades in the 4th...

If you like the open style readings then definitely do what you enjoy, though experimenting is always fun! 😁 Do you have Caitlin Matthews lenormand book? There's a spread in there that looks 'traditional' and she uses near far to read it.

My friend of course doesn't remember much from the 1950s ... except that she took playing cards and removed the 2s-7s. Then laid them in this circle of 12. I don't know if she combined them or just read one card per position.

 

Your mention of Suits being strong in certain Houses is fascinating. I can see Hearts in the H7 [marriage house] and Spades in H4 [Home, vehicles, mother]. Some of those early cartomantes were versed in Astrology too, it appears. Clubs in H10 [career] and Diamonds in H1 [self and health] aren't as obvious to me.

 

I've not bought Matthews book or Meuris book. For now, I decided to STOP reading and memorize the PL original instructions and other basics.

 

The spread experimentation is different. I want to try different spreads to find my sweet spot. Yeah, Foli's Grand Star is a hot mess. Since there are basically no instructions I might try it as a tableau. The shapes of spreads affects me strongly. Like discovering the 6x6 GT was the Only One for me. The 6x6 was based on the Game of Hope as a dice game. Roll two 6-sided dice and you have 36 possible combinations. I sometimes combine dice with cards, anyway, so it resonated.

Edited by Misterei
Posted
8 hours ago, Misterei said:

Your mention of Suits being strong in certain Houses is fascinating. I can see Hearts in the H7 [marriage house] and Spades in H4 [Home, vehicles, mother]. Some of those early cartomantes were versed in Astrology too, it appears. Clubs in H10 [career] and Diamonds in H1 [self and health] aren't as obvious to me.

Diamonds were seen as life in general, but also seen as hazardous due to the fact they are heavily influenced by the cards around them. I'm not knowledgeable on astrology but maybe the first house is also like that?

 

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

The spread experimentation is different. I want to try different spreads to find my sweet spot. Yeah, Foli's Grand Star is a hot mess. Since there are basically no instructions I might try it as a tableau.

The only instructions I could find were to read the outer circle anticlockwise: 14 and 16, 21 and 19, 15 and 17, 20 and 18. Then read the inner pairs clockwise: 6 and 10, 9 and 12, 8 and 13, 7 and 11. Then pair the center cards 4 and 2, 5 and 3, reading the card across the sig last.

 

There would be two ways to read this though as he mentions "the significations are, of course, taken with regards to the relative positions of the cards", which I believe is reference to something similar to this:

 

• Those above the significator show possibilities for success/achievement

• Those directly below the sig show what has transpired

• To the right show the future, or what the querent is approaching

• To the left obstacles and oppositions

 

• Right diagonal above shows things that help the querent

• Right diagonal below shows things accomplished towards the desires for the querent

• Left diagonal above shows obstacles that may arise out of the past 

• Left diagonal below are obstacles that have already made themselves known

 

These positions were very common back then, and I think Foli has assumed the reader knows about them in his book! Hence the lack of him explaining them...

 

Another way to read it could be to ignore the positions, and read them as a narrative starting with pair 14 and 16, and ending on card 22. Which would keep the free association aspect.

A lot of these spreads used to be read in a winding motion, or like a spiral through time 😆

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