Lenormand vs. Tarot--musings on cards of False Friendship and Work

[Misterei]

It strikes me how many cards Lenormand has for false friendships. Snake and Fox are both people who will lie to you, manipulate you, or trick you. And by the traditional Philippe Lenormand instructions, other cards like Bear or Dog can warn of disloyal or false friends when distant from the Person.

 

Recently i've come to appreciate this quality of LN. Sorting through frenemies and gaslighting. It's not always obvious in Tarot ... but LN has cards exactly for that.

 

Less clear in LN are employment or "work" cards. Which has spawned debate vis a vis. Moon, Fox, Anchor, etc.

 

RWS style Tarot gives very clear employment cards: Kn Pents, Ace Pents, 8 Pents. I miss this in LN although I'm learning to adjust.

Yet Tarot doesnt have cards specific to false freinds. Magician R or with negative cards can show manipulative communication. Likewise, Fool, Moon, or Devil may show aspects of duping someone or manipulative communication. But it's way more fluid and situational with Tarot.

 

It fascinates me how these decks focus on different aspects of the Human experience. Clearly in LN times, knowing a person's true intentions was extremely important. I can't help but think it's b/c these cards emerged at a time when marriage was so important. You didn't want to risk your whole future on marrying the wrong person. Thus the many cards specific to false or disloyal friends. Tarot is different. The original Tarocchi Trumps illustrated religious or philiosphical themes. They were never created to advise on making a good marriage.

 

Vis a vis reading styles. I don't know that I see such a sharp divide in reading methods as some suggest. There are both similarities and differences. The whole numerology, astrology, and Hermetic philosophy dimension is missing from LN. So I suppose I will say I can read Tarots using LN techniques but I can't necessarily read LNs using Tarot techniques.

Edited May 21, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

This is an interesting topic, and you're right that work in LN is a bit obscure. Being no defined work card we have to rely on anchor, moon, fish etc as different aspects of working life. 

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

Yet Tarot doesnt have cards specific to false freinds. Magician R or with negative cards can show manipulative communication. Likewise, Fool, Moon, or Devil may show aspects of duping someone or manipulative communication. But it's way more fluid and situational with Tarot.

I think this depends on reading style. In some older traditions Queen of Wands/Batons is definitely not a woman to be trusted, she's a home wrecker. In the 1750 Pratesi sheet she's labelled a wh*re!

 

In the modern TB system the people to not trust are the Page of Cups (rival woman), King of Swords (rival man), Queen of Swords (affliction caused by a woman)

 

In other systems I've seen the Queen of Swords as a vengeful woman, and the Page of Swords as a spy/traitor. But any court card with The Moon, Devil, etc, would be a cause for concern!

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

It fascinates me how these decks focus on different aspects of the Human experience. Clearly in LN times, knowing a person's true intentions was extremely important. I can't help but think it's b/c these cards emerged at a time when marriage was so important. You didn't want to risk your whole future on marrying the wrong person. Thus the many cards specific to false or disloyal friends.

The same could apply to business too (hence the amount of trade/commerce cards). Employees and businessmen didn't have the same protections they do today, so they'd definitely want to know what's up!

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

Tarot is different. The original Tarocchi Trumps illustrated religious or philiosphical themes. They were never created to advise on making a good marriage.

The original Tarocco Bolognese sheet from 1750 has interesting meanings pertaining to marriage (while it's only one trump, I do think it shows that marriage was in their minds back then):

 

The Bagatto: Married man

Lovers: Love 

The Angel (Judgement): Marriage and settlement 

King of Wands: Unmarried man

Queen of Cups: Married woman

 

There's also cards for betrayal, sex, the bed (sick and sex), litigation, it reads like an opera 🤣

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, akiva said:

... this depends on reading style. In some older traditions Queen of Wands/Batons is definitely not a woman to be trusted, she's a home wrecker. In the 1750 Pratesi sheet she's labelled a wh*re! ...In the modern TB system the people to not trust are the Page of Cups (rival woman), King of Swords (rival man), Queen of Swords (affliction caused by a woman) ... The original Tarocco Bolognese sheet from 1750 ...

Ah. I was speaking of the original 1400s Tarocchi Triunfi having philosophical themes. They weren't for telling fortunes, so in some ways its not a fair comparison.

 

I'm not familiar with the later iterations [Pratesi, Bolognese]. If they're from 1750ish ... likely they would have much in common with Lenormand since they only predate it by 50 years or so. Times had changed a LOT since the 1400s Tarocchi.

 

Tarocco Bolognese etc. is something I should study as I'm pretty ignorant of it.

 

In the modern RWS-based styles, Any of the Queens might be a snake or backstabber depending context and surrounding cards. So this was my thinking about why modern Tarot doesn't have such specific cards for a liar or gaslighter. You would have to see Knight Cups with Devil and Magician in a romance question [for example] to tell the client, "don't trust this guy. He may seem sincere, but he's a player and lying to you."

In Lenormand we might see that possibility simply from the Dog being distant and snake or fox being near. But I guess that's pretty contextual, too };>

[Misterei]

@akiva

Ok, now you got me going off on a tangent. I did a bit of reading and found this site for Bolognese

https://rinascimentoitalianartenglish.wordpress.com/2020/02/27/the-oldest-method-of-reading-the-tarot/

 

The site mentions a reading method called game of the hand ... which sorta reminds me of the 5-card Tirage en Crox. Like maybe a predecessor. Purely spitballing but I found it interesting.

[akiva]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

Ah. I was speaking of the original 1400s Tarocchi Triunfi having philosophical themes. They weren't for telling fortunes, so in some ways its not a fair comparison.

Is this a case of there not being any evidence they were used for fortune telling or more a case of the game came first? Have to admit my history doesn't go back as far as the 1400s! Though the BT meanings had to come from somewhere? They're most likely older than 1750, it's just we don't have any written record of them afaik

 

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

In the modern RWS-based styles, Any of the Queens might be a snake or backstabber depending context and surrounding cards. So this was my thinking about why modern Tarot doesn't have such specific cards for a liar or gaslighter.

Imo (if I was to take a single card to represent a snake in the grass) in modern tarot that would be the Page of Swords. Waite says he's a spy, and represents those kinds for qualities (so can easily be a snake), but in super modern tarot this has kind of been lost.

 

I think people went through a phase of making all the court cards nice, and lessened the harshness of the Swords and it has removed the cards that would denote a backstabber or snake. Also we focus on court cards as personalities in todays writings, but back then they were more rigid in their interpretation. A QoS was a widow and would represent loneliness, sadness and at times poverty. Whereas modern interpretations are so different!

 

You're totally right though that tarot isn't as fixed a lenormand. You can have so many combos for a person you can't trust. It's probably down to the size of the decks. Tarot has far more possibilities, so it needs to be a bit flexible, whereas (old)TB only has 35 cards and Lenormand 36 so you probably need cards to be less open and more defined to create a system.

 

53 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Ok, now you got me going off on a tangent. I did a bit of reading and found this site for Bolognese

https://rinascimentoitalianartenglish.wordpress.com/2020/02/27/the-oldest-method-of-reading-the-tarot/

 

The site mentions a reading method called game of the hand ... which sorta reminds me of the 5-card Tirage en Crox. Like maybe a predecessor. Purely spitballing but I found it interesting.

Yes I've seen this spread, it's a fun one to do and does seem similar to the Triage en Croix. I'd place money on it being a predecessor to the Triage 🤣

 

The hand spread is mostly used with a single card for each finger, but originally you'd divide the deck into 5 piles, one for each finger. So for the old 35 deck it would be 5 piles of 7 cards.

 

It would be a tarot technique that would transfer to lenormand. You'd end up with one card left over, but if you remove the querents significator it wouldn't be an issue. 

[Guest]

Perusing Waite's Pictorial Key, there are more than a dozen references to marriage. I have read about marriage with the Tarot, and while I might like to think that I was mostly accurate - well, its very nature makes it a slippery beast, no? One day, you're congratulating yourself on having predicted a loving and successful marriage; a week and an exposed indiscretion later it's all up in flames *sigh*.

 

The Hierophant has traditionally (hah!) been viewed as the arcanum of Marriage. If The Lovers appears along with it, this V-VI combo will herald a long and successful union. Marriage is also strongly advised or indicated if either the Ten of Cups or the King of Wands graces a spread with their presence too. On the flip side, the Queen of Swords is regarded as the card of The Widow. If she makes an appearance, regardless of her aspect one is advised to either delay/do away with a wedding or simply refrain from considering it. 

 

Regarding betrayal: the Hanged Man has traditionally been considered the card of The Traitor. When either it, the Ten of Swords (literally back-stabbed!), or the Queen of Cups in her malefic aspect casts a pall over a spread, I pay particular attention. I can very well see how all the Queens reversed can turn perfidious though. 

[Misterei]

17 hours ago, akiva said:

Is this a case of there not being any evidence they were used for fortune telling or more a case of the game came first? ... the BT meanings had to come from somewhere? They're most likely older than 1750 ...

Exactly. The original 1400s Tarocchi were being used to tell fortunes by 1500s [we have one literary source from 1527 describing this] but unlike LN they were never MADE to tell fortunes. I surmise that fortune tellers started using the original Tarocchis in the 1500s and this would have been the precourser to the Bolognese fortune telling tradition.

17 hours ago, akiva said:

Imo (if I was to take a single card to represent a snake in the grass) in modern tarot that would be the Page of Swords. Waite says he's a spy, and represents those kinds for qualities (so can easily be a snake), but in super modern tarot this has kind of been lost.

You make a point that traditionally [even in modern RWS style] the Swords Courts most often represent disagreeable people. But they can also simply represent your Lawyer in a lawsuit and various other less malefic roles. Likewise Cups are most often seen as romantic people, but R or with malefic cards, well, no one can gaslight or guilt-trip like a Cups court! etc. etc.

17 hours ago, akiva said:

I think people went through a phase of making all the court cards nice, and lessened the harshness of the Swords and it has removed the cards that would denote a backstabber or snake. Also we focus on court cards as personalities in todays writings, but back then they were more rigid in their interpretation. A QoS was a widow and would represent loneliness, sadness and at times poverty. Whereas modern interpretations are so different!

Good point. As a modern reader I've simply decided that all the Courts are neutral and surrounding cards will show if they express their malefic or benefic qualitites. Q Swords might be the friend at work who advised you of your legal rights ... or she might be the b*tch who started an ugly rumor about you.

17 hours ago, akiva said:

Yes I've seen this spread, it's a fun one to do and does seem similar to the Triage en Croix. I'd place money on it being a predecessor to the Triage 🤣

LOL of course you have. I'm going to try it. Looks fun and simple.

 

11 hours ago, Akhilleus said:

Perusing Waite's Pictorial Key, there are more than a dozen references to marriage. I have read about marriage with the Tarot, and while I might like to think that I was mostly accurate - well, its very nature makes it a slippery beast, no? One day, you're congratulating yourself on having predicted a loving and successful marriage; a week and an exposed indiscretion later it's all up in flames *sigh*.

LOL that might be the nature of marriage itself, more than Tarots.

11 hours ago, Akhilleus said:

The Hierophant has traditionally (hah!) been viewed as the arcanum of Marriage. If The Lovers appears along with it, this V-VI combo will herald a long and successful union. Marriage is also strongly advised or indicated if either the Ten of Cups or the King of Wands graces a spread with their presence too. On the flip side, the Queen of Swords is regarded as the card of The Widow. If she makes an appearance, regardless of her aspect one is advised to either delay/do away with a wedding or simply refrain from considering it. 

Interesting take. I have always seen Hierophant as marriage. To predict marriage usually I would want to see it with 2 Cups and maybe 10 Cups or Ace Cups. You get the idea. Also an interesting point that we need 3 cards to predict marraige in LN [Heart, Ring, Anchor] and they should all appear on the right side of the Person card. So with marriage itself, perhaps modern Tarot and LN are similar in needing a 3-card combo to predict it.

11 hours ago, Akhilleus said:

Regarding betrayal: the Hanged Man has traditionally been considered the card of The Traitor. When either it, the Ten of Swords (literally back-stabbed!), or the Queen of Cups in her malefic aspect casts a pall over a spread, I pay particular attention. I can very well see how all the Queens reversed can turn perfidious though. 

The Hanged Man is a card that frustrates me vis a vis RWS vs. Tarocchi / TdM. In RWS its a spiritual card which on a practical level means delays. But in Tarocchi or TdM, it's Judas Iscariot. A traitor. Since I usually read RWS for clients, i take 10 Swords as the Betrayal card. Be it in business or love. It's slightly different than LN, though. 10 Swords shows the event of betrayal. Whereas Fox, Snake, or a distant Dog shows an unreliable or false friend. The old sense of Hanged Man as Judas is more similar to these LN cards. It shows a person who betrays.

 

And per above, I've come to a place where ANY of the Courts can be malefic depending context and surrounding cards. But I do retain that old skool vibe that the Swords are more likely to bring trouble.

[akiva]

9 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Exactly. The original 1400s Tarocchi were being used to tell fortunes by 1500s [we have one literary source from 1527 describing this] but unlike LN they were never MADE to tell fortunes.

Wasn't LN a game? Or was it a game and fortune-telling at the same time? My memory is hazy there

 

10 minutes ago, Misterei said:

You make a point that traditionally [even in modern RWS style] the Swords Courts most often represent disagreeable people. But they can also simply represent your Lawyer in a lawsuit and various other less malefic roles. Likewise Cups are most often seen as romantic people, but R or with malefic cards, well, no one can gaslight or guilt-trip like a Cups court! etc. etc.

This is true. Though not using reversals you have to get creative with your combos for gaslighty court cards!

 

25 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Good point. As a modern reader I've simply decided that all the Courts are neutral and surrounding cards will show if they express their malefic or benefic qualitites. Q Swords might be the friend at work who advised you of your legal rights ... or she might be the b*tch who started an ugly rumor about you.

What I've found in my practice is that the King and Queen of Swords are rarely people. The King is usually legal stuff, conflicts and obstacles and the Queen is loneliness, poverty, seperation, and one time hunger 🤣.

It's like they describe other court cards that come out with them. The same is true with the Page of Swords. If PoS appears near say Queen of Cups then you've got a woman who you've really gotta watch out for!

If they (King/Queen of Swords) come out as people they're usually old, an ex/enemy or someone in a really high position.

 

24 minutes ago, Misterei said:

LOL of course you have. I'm going to try it. Looks fun and simple.

It's better than the game of life spread that TB readers used to do. 7 rows of 5 cards and then 2 pyramid spreads after 🤣

[Misterei]

21 minutes ago, akiva said:

Wasn't LN a game? Or was it a game and fortune-telling at the same time? My memory is hazy there

Game of Hope was a board game with dice. 6x6=36. This came from rolling 6-sided dice to land on the Houses of the board game.

 

Later it was converted to cards ... but this conversion was more blatantly to fortune telling cards. Hence the playing card insets. LN is sort of the b&stard love child of Game of Hope + Cartomancy.

 

And so-called coffee cards were somehow into the mix from Ottoman Empire via Austria-Hungary. The Turks, Greeks, Arabs read coffee grounds. And their folk system arrived in Europe during late Ottoman empire and got converted into cards b/c the Western Euros didn't drink their coffee that way.

21 minutes ago, akiva said:

This is true. Though not using reversals you have to get creative with your combos for gaslighty court cards!

Devil is my friend here, too.

21 minutes ago, akiva said:

What I've found in my practice is that the King and Queen of Swords are rarely people. The King is usually legal stuff, conflicts and obstacles and the Queen is loneliness, poverty, seperation, and one time hunger ...

I have 4 different methods of reading Courts. Sometimes people, sometimes not. Even as people, I have 4 methods for reading them. I think this is why whole books get dedicated to the Courts. They've gotten complex since the days when Q Batons was a wh*re and Q Swords was a widow.

21 minutes ago, akiva said:

It's better than the game of life spread that TB readers used to do. 7 rows of 5 cards and then 2 pyramid spreads after 🤣

Yep. I saw a spread with only 5 cards [and 5 piles] and thought: THIS is my comfort zone 😇

Edited May 22, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

13 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Later it was converted to cards ... but this conversion was more blatantly to fortune telling cards. Hence the playing card insets. LN is sort of the b&stard love child of Game of Hope + Cartomancy.

Ah thanks for clearing this up 😁 love a good b⭐️stard cartomancy child

 

14 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I have 4 different methods of reading Courts. Sometimes people, sometimes not. Even as people, I have 4 methods for reading them. I think this is why whole books get dedicated to the Courts. They've gotten complex since the days when Q Batons was a wh*re and Q Swords was a widow.

Do you think they need to be so complex though? I get your neutrality method and relying on other cards to show you if they're snake-like or nice. It's effective and very clear to read like that, not far off how clear lenormand is when it's warning you about someone. But some modern texts are way too deep imo. 

 

20 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Yep. I saw a spread with only 5 cards [and 5 piles] and thought: THIS is my comfort zone 😇

Do share how it goes (if you want), love seeing people practice old spreads 😁

 

I do wonder if Lenormand has so many cards for false friends and backstabbers due to the society that it was created in. Often divinatory meanings reflect the experiences of the creator/social space at the time. Maybe it was a really backstabby city/town 🤔

[Misterei]

7 minutes ago, akiva said:

Do you think they need to be so complex though? I get your neutrality method and relying on other cards to show you if they're snake-like or nice. It's effective and very clear to read like that, not far off how clear lenormand is when it's warning you about someone. But some modern texts are way too deep imo. 

Up to a point, I can see the progression. Q Batons as a wh*re was a business woman who didn't tie herself to one man. She prolly had money. Q Swords was a widow who was likely suffering economically. We might extrapolate this for today's society. Q Batons is an entrepeneur who has her own money. Maybe she wants to get married or maybe she prefers her stable of boytoys. This option wasn't necessarily available to women of the 1600s-1700s.

 

The 2000s trend toward radical psychologizing of Tarot is stupid. Sometimes it doesn't matter that Q Swords had a difficult childhood and that's why she's a poison gossip. Sometimes you just want to know if your Q Swords female lawyer is going to win your case.

 

Going back to the 1700s, Q Swords couldn't have been a lady lawyer. They didn't exist.

7 minutes ago, akiva said:

I do wonder if Lenormand has so many cards for false friends and backstabbers due to the society that it was created in. Often divinatory meanings reflect the experiences of the creator/social space at the time.

Back to my original question. In the 1800s a woman could be ruined by a false man or a bad marriage. Getting pregnant out of wedlock? You were DONE. Ruined. Your whole family shamed. And marriages lasted for life. Married to an abusive alcoholic? Again, you're screwed. No divorce.

 

I believe women of the 1800s Lenormand days were FAR more concerned about a man with false intentions than modern women. They had more to lose. And I surmise that it was young ladies of marriageable age who were using LN the most. [pure conjecture since we don't have statistics or polls but it makes sense. They needed to preserve their virginity and marry the Right Man.]

[akiva]

54 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Q Batons as a wh*re was a business woman who didn't tie herself to one man. She prolly had money.

Yeah I can see this. The negative label probably came from her being free willed. Not willing to be tied down and conform to societal norms. Though she probably could be a man stealer too 🤣

 

55 minutes ago, Misterei said:

The 2000s trend toward radical psychologizing of Tarot is stupid. Sometimes it doesn't matter that Q Swords had a difficult childhood and that's why she's a poison gossip. Sometimes you just want to know if your Q Swords female lawyer is going to win your case.

Totally agree! A lot of modern books don't give you that 'straight to the point' interpretation. It's padded with waffle. They don't teach you to recognise when a court card is a gossip or a friend either

 

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

I believe women of the 1800s Lenormand days were FAR more concerned about a man with false intentions than modern women. They had more to lose. And I surmise that it was young ladies of marriageable age who were using LN the most. [pure conjecture since we don't have statistics or polls but it makes sense. They needed to preserve their virginity and marry the Right Man.]

I can see this, definitely. But what about all the cards about trade, commerce and wealth by sea faring activites? I do wonder if men were also using these cards too? Given that those kinds of jobs were predominantly men orientated, afaik 🤔

[Misterei]

38 minutes ago, akiva said:

... I can see this, definitely. But what about all the cards about trade, commerce and wealth by sea faring activites? I do wonder if men were also using these cards too? Given that those kinds of jobs were predominantly men orientated, afaik 🤔

I agree that men also were using LN. They had their own set of worries. Even for men, marrying the wrong woman was a disaster b/c no divorce. And poorer men would be less likely to have legal recourse if things Went Wrong in business. Still true today that money buys justice ... but prolly more of a thing back then.

 

LNs *do* seem to have a coastal bias. Fishes, Anchor, Ship. These things also affected women. Is she going to marry a man with good prospects? And women worked back in those days, too. Men crewed the Ship, but a woman likely sewed their clothes or made uniforms for the navy. Men caught the fish, but women were in the market selling them. And NO ONE wanted mice in their larder 😉

 

One thing that never made sense to me is why Scythe is malefic. Intuitively, one thinks "Harvest". A good thing. But I guess they had a bunch of scythe accidents? Or people going around murdering with a scythe since guns weren't available???

[akiva]

45 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I agree that men also were using LN. They had their own set of worries. Even for men, marrying the wrong woman was a disaster b/c no divorce. And poorer men would be less likely to have legal recourse if things Went Wrong in business. Still true today that money buys justice ... but prolly more of a thing back then.

It's odd to have a gender balance in an old cartomancy system. A lot of older systems were more geared for ladies in waiting 🤣

 

46 minutes ago, Misterei said:

LNs *do* seem to have a coastal bias. Fishes, Anchor, Ship. These things also affected women. Is she going to marry a man with good prospects? And women worked back in those days, too. Men crewed the Ship, but a woman likely sewed their clothes or made uniforms for the navy. Men caught the fish, but women were in the market selling them. And NO ONE wanted mice in their larder 😉

This makes sense. And women who cared for their husbands would want to know if they'd be able to put food on the table

 

46 minutes ago, Misterei said:

One thing that never made sense to me is why Scythe is malefic. Intuitively, one thinks "Harvest". A good thing. But I guess they had a bunch of scythe accidents? Or people going around murdering with a scythe since guns weren't available???

I have a theory about this... A few of LNs cards match up to old piquet systems. In some older systems the J♦️ is a soldier, and would represent conflict, weapons, combat, and stuff like that. It's not an exact fit, but I think the Scythes meaning stems in some way from the older archetype for this card.

[Misterei]

2 hours ago, akiva said:

I have a theory about this... A few of LNs cards match up to old piquet systems. In some older systems the J♦️ is a soldier, and would represent conflict, weapons, combat, and stuff like that. It's not an exact fit, but I think the Scythes meaning stems in some way from the older archetype for this card.

Great theory. It hits. If Lenormand is the b&astard child of GOH and Cartomancy ... this would explain the attitude that Scythe is a weapon more than a farm tool for happy harvest.

[DanielJUK]

I think it's important to remember that the meanings of things like false friends and other messages, should be read in combination. Like we learn the traditional idea of each card, but the messages come from the combination. That's the big different to tarot cards being interpreted. There are so many meanings because of the combinations.

[Misterei]

2 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

I think it's important to remember that the meanings of things like false friends and other messages, should be read in combination. Like we learn the traditional idea of each card, but the messages come from the combination. That's the big different to tarot cards being interpreted. There are so many meanings because of the combinations.

Actually I always read Tarots in combinations. In this respect Tarots and Lenormands are the same to me. I would never do a 1-card draw in either system.

 

That being said, there are several verses in the Philippe LN instructions that mention false friends [or similar]. It was clearly at the forefront of their audience's attention. Whereas in Tarots one must dig a bit deeper. And it's only in the old Tarocchis or TdM that Hanged Man was a betrayer person.

[joy]

Yes totally agree with @DanielJUK LN needs to be read in pairs. Plus context is very important.

[akiva]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:33 AM, Misterei said:

Great theory. It hits. If Lenormand is the b&astard child of GOH and Cartomancy ... this would explain the attitude that Scythe is a weapon more than a farm tool for happy harvest.

I think so, and there are other matches too but some that are wildly different. The creator of the deck definitely had cartomancy knowledge. For instance 9♦️ reversed in some systems is Coffin 🤣 

 

Back on topic: have you ever had Fox represent a rival? I think it has the potential to represent a person in some situations. I've had it as a person who couldn't be understood, but it was paired with Ship which represented something foreign

[Misterei]

7 hours ago, akiva said:

I think so, and there are other matches too but some that are wildly different. The creator of the deck definitely had cartomancy knowledge.

Coincidientally I was just reading a book about the whole Danes [Vikings] vs. British Isles thing back in the 800s-900s. They DID use scythe as a weapon. A Lot. The Danes would invade and the native Brits weren't all warriors with horses and swords. Many of them were farmers with scythes. So there we have it. I know this predates LN by 900 years ... but interesting to note the Scythe WAS a common weapon.

7 hours ago, akiva said:

Back on topic: have you ever had Fox represent a rival? I think it has the potential to represent a person in some situations. I've had it as a person who couldn't be understood, but it was paired with Ship which represented something foreign

Fox remains mysterious to me. So far its been neutral as 2 weeks or my cats. Negative as wrong timing [+Stars] or negative as a wrong message [+Rider]. So far it hasn't appeared for a business rival. But I work alone and get business from my website ... so it's not like I have a job where this would arise. I've not had to deal with tradespeople or workers who might be sneaky, so again, no reason for it to arise as such.

 

So far I've had Snake appear for a frenemy / false friend who was back-stabby. Covertly jealous and nasty. Not Fox.

Edited May 24, 2024 by Misterei

[dancing_moon]

On 5/22/2024 at 3:46 PM, Misterei said:

One thing that never made sense to me is why Scythe is malefic.

 

My personal theory is that it's associated with the Grim Reaper/Father Time - not exactly a welcome kind of a harvest 😅 I think I even saw a version of the card that included an hourglass.

 

But it could be much more literal: a scythe is a cutting tool, and it cuts everything/everyone around it - hence, danger.

[Misterei]

10 minutes ago, dancing_moon said:

My personal theory is that it's associated with the Grim Reaper/Father Time - not exactly a welcome kind of a harvest  ...

I thought of that, too. It's certainly in Tarots.

LN Coffin seems to resonate more with Tarot Death [not that they necessarily match] just how I saw it.

The Scythe seems more active / soldiers / weapns. Like the caromanctic Jack Diamonds that @akiva mentioned.

Anyway, it's something to ponder.

[akiva]

17 hours ago, Misterei said:

Fox remains mysterious to me. So far its been neutral as 2 weeks or my cats. Negative as wrong timing [+Stars] or negative as a wrong message [+Rider]. So far it hasn't appeared for a business rival. But I work alone and get business from my website ... so it's not like I have a job where this would arise. I've not had to deal with tradespeople or workers who might be sneaky, so again, no reason for it to arise as such.

It's the PL sheet that got me thinking if it can stand for a person individually (like Bear or Dog). Andy gives it the keyword "competitor" too, which also makes me wonder... 

 

I vaguely remember getting it as a person card when an Etsy seller tried to scam me a few years ago. I never recorded the reading though 😭

 

5 hours ago, dancing_moon said:

My personal theory is that it's associated with the Grim Reaper/Father Time - not exactly a welcome kind of a harvest 😅 I think I even saw a version of the card that included an hourglass.

This is a cool theory! Do you remember which deck had an hour glass? 

[Misterei]

6 hours ago, akiva said:

It's the PL sheet that got me thinking if it can stand for a person individually (like Bear or Dog). Andy gives it the keyword "competitor" too, which also makes me wonder... I vaguely remember getting it as a person card when an Etsy seller tried to scam me a few years ago....

Yes, I think situations like your Etsy seller would be very "Fox" as a person. Someone trying to outfox you in the marketplace world.

 

Of course sometimes it's ME trying to be the Fox if I'm honest. Everyone needs to be a bit Foxy with buraucrats or airlines 😉
 

Edited May 25, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

6 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Of course sometimes it's ME trying to be the Fox if I'm honest. Everyone needs to be a bit Foxy with buraucrats or airlines 😉

LOL channeling your inner fox is a part of life! There's an element of strategy to this card as much as cunning