Those afraid of tarot

[XXII]

Some people refuse to learn about the reality of tarot. They choose to believe everything that's fed to them by media.

[gregory]

Some people don't believe in god and some do. It's not up to anyone to tell anyone else what is real and what isn't.

[fire cat pickles]

People want to believe what they want to believe and will look for confirmation anywhere and any way they can find it (grossly overgeneralizing here), whether this be on a cable news channel, social media, their friends or family, a book, a deck of cards/divination or other form of spiritual guidance, etc. This is nothing new. It's human nature.

 

Everyone has their own spin on "reality," including tarot. Mine will be different from yours. Mine is certainly different from gregory's. It doesn't mean either's is wrong.

Edited June 7, 2024 by fire cat pickles

[gregory]

3 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

Mine is certainly different from gregory's.

 

It is ?  Fancy. We must chat.  

[Misterei]

17 hours ago, XXII said:

Some people refuse to learn about the reality of tarot. They choose to believe everything that's fed to them by media.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "reality" of Tarot and what's "fed by media" ???

 

Tarot mainstreamed in the past 5-10 years. Now mainstream media has many favorable articles about their whitewashed psychologized version of Tarot. Whereas before, mainstream media pretty much ignored it or mocked it.

 

There will always be religious conservatives who see it as "devilish". This will never go away. Religions have a vested interested / profit motive to keep their flock AWAY from divination and all the alternatives to their strict programmes. Regardless of mainstream media ... you will always have religious conservatives.

 

If the USA and the West goes the way of "Handmaids Tale", Iran, and similar countries which are controlled by religious conservatives ... then we will have to go underground. Card readers in Spain and Italy during the Inquisitions of the 1300s-1600s faced imprisonment and likely torture if caught. Yet Tarot and cartomancy itself managed to survive Inquisitions.

 

We in the "socially liberal" west and countries like India and Japan have a great deal of freedom to practice cartomancy as we like. The only blowback I've gotten was when Stripe payment processing dumped my business b/c they dumped all their psychic and cannabis customers. I switched to Paypal. It was an inconvenience ... but not an inquisition.

[fire cat pickles]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

 

It is ?  Fancy. We must chat.  

 

OT but in reference to the intuitive vein---not for my want, need or desire but time constraints!

[gregory]

Well there you go - thanks; not OT at all - you've made the point. Our realities are very different, but both are tarot reality - just as the "fact" that it's scary is the tarot reality of others. I'm scared of a lot of things - not least daddy-longlegses - and they are real. Scary, but real. I learned about them in school. They are still scary. There are people who have studied tarot and are afraid of it, too.

[fire cat pickles]

25 minutes ago, gregory said:

Well there you go - thanks; not OT at all - you've made the point. Our realities are very different, but both are tarot reality - just as the "fact" that it's scary is the tarot reality of others. I'm scared of a lot of things - not least daddy-longlegses - and they are real. Scary, but real. I learned about them in school. They are still scary. There are people who have studied tarot and are afraid of it, too.

Ah, yes. It took me a while to embrace the reality that intuition in tarot is a reality, a reality of others that could be--and was---a reality of mine in the short time I had in the circle I had a while back that I enjoyed 😉 I for one feel grateful for the experiences I've been afforded in this life. There will be others that don't have opportunities to expand their realities. It isn't my place to judge people. Unfortunately as Misterei points out others feel free to judge us, but then we spin into politics....

[Natural Mystic Guide]

13 hours ago, Misterei said:

Now mainstream media has many favorable articles about their whitewashed psychologized version of Tarot

I never really thought that much about the 'psychologized versions of Tarot' that I sometimes encounter.  Usually my reaction is I just don't like it.  Not until you mention it in this context, do I really get that it is a Thing.  Well the good thing is that this trend may make people more open to divination.

[Misterei]

12 hours ago, Natural Mystic Guide said:

...  Well the good thing is that this trend may make people more open to divination.

It's a double-edged sword. The popular mainstream whitewashed version is that Tarot is never never never used for predictions or fortune telling because that is Bad and Must Be Shamed. Every one of those articles has a sentence that goes something like, "Of course Tarot is NEVER used to predict the future ..."

So I dont really know how open it makes people to the "reality" of Tarot. Then again my clients want to know a little about the future and we connect just fine on that.

 

As others have said, even the Psychological tarot fans end up making future predictions ... they just use fancy denial language around it to dress it up as something Other than fortune telling.

[Laura Borealis]

I figure the emphasis on "it's never ever used for fortune telling" is because fortune telling is still associated with scams. Which is funny since you can be just as scammed by a psychological reading as a predictive one.

[fire cat pickles]

I wonder how long term damage can be done when tarot is used for psychological guidance, though? How often do we see people seeking medical advice (yes mental health is medical) through the use of cards when professional help is often the better choice? It concerns me when folks will say "prediction bad, personal guidance good." Just an opinion but I hardly think consulting cards is the best remedy in some situations...

[Natural Mystic Guide]

1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said:

I hardly think consulting cards is the best remedy in some situations...

For sure.  Hopefully we as readers will have the integrity to recognize when we are out of our depth and that professional help is appropriate.  We can recommend that.  I try to have lists of excellent professionals not just for different types of medical situations, but legal as well.  Refer out.

[DanielJUK]

I feel we are gatekeeping how tarot and divination can be used here. If someone wants to use tarot for analysing themselves or for self-help (and there are also many, many self-help books in any store), it's their business. If someone wishes to use it for fortune-telling or predictions, that's their prerogative. There are multiple ways to use it and we can use it however best works for us. Members of this forum use it all different ways and that should be celebrated. That's always been the intention of the forum and not to shut down member's different paths.

 

We are moving off-topic from the original post. Why are people afraid of tarot and is it influenced by the media?

[DanielJUK]

My opinion on it, is that it's about religion. Multiple religions spread fear about tarot and divination because it's a rival to them historically. Instead of being part of their community and giving money and following those ideas, someone could be using cards in their own home. So fear and superstition is spread to make it seem unmoral and dangerous. The media in some countries and some sources, confirms this. They spread the morality or negative nature of it.

 

The interesting thing about it, is there are people with strong religious beliefs and practice and who are into tarot and divination. I have met people of all the major religions who are into it and ignore the fearmongering. There is also a tradition in most religions and cultures of tarot and divination practices, even the most conservative ones. That's the really fascinating bit, over centuries. There are members of this forum who have religious beliefs who also really believe and use tarot, so it is a personal choice thing. Some people fear it and some people have it as a part of their spiritual journey.

[gregory]

Religion is certainly a part of it, and religion specialises in fear - fear of god, fear of hell, fear of divine retribution; even fear of being expelled from your church.

 

But it's also - not actually WANTING to know, so the idea that someone can tell you (generic) what is going to happen is anathema to you. I read a novel once where a travelling psychic claimed to be able to tell you the exact date of your death. And she could. And knowing their death dates SO affected the lives of the four kids she read for - (some declined the reading and some didn't; no spoilers just in case). I think it's also, therefore, a fear of the future, and if you already have predictions about it, it makes it seem more scary. OK I am going to die young of - say - pneumonia. But will I marry and have kids first; will I die alone, will I will I will I. It usually doesn't occur to people that a reader will be able to offer information about a house sale or a job offer. People assume that knowing the future means they will always see bad stuff. And even if they really want to know about that house sale, the reader might see Something Awful as well and they Do Not Want To Know. Now some readers won't deliver bad news (which I think is dishonest, but that's a separate issue.) But some say they HAVE TO TELL YOU. Personally I think that's rude; I think if you say "Tell me ONLY about my exams" the reader should NOT mention that they see - say - your dog run over by a bus next week. But the fear that they MIGHT tell you EVERYTHING puts people off.

 

Which is fair enough. I am one of those who believes in free will, so if I get a reading that says x WILL happen, I know (in my tarot reality  ) that by changing my ways, I can do something about it. But anyone who absolutely believes in predestination has to accept that what a reader sees is The Truth Sent From Tarot. And that's terrifying. A not totally unjustified fear. The same fear as the one that means someone with classic symptoms doesn't go to the doctor in case it's cancer because if it is they don't want to know.

Edited June 10, 2024 by gregory
typo that lost the sense

[Misterei]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:18 PM, DanielJUK said:

My opinion on it, is that it's about religion. Multiple religions spread fear about tarot and divination because it's a rival to them ...

...The interesting thing about it, is there are people with strong religious beliefs and practice and who are into tarot and divination.

Yes, I think if we could say the 2 main reasons people might fear Tarot--religious prohibitions and fear that it actually WORKS.

 

As @DanielJUK mentions--not everyone who's religious fears divination. Much of it is cultural. In Greek and Russian culture you find devout Orthodox Christian ladies who read cards [Russian] or read coffee grinds [Greek]. In turkish culture likewise you see Moselm ladies who are reading coffee grounds. I've known a devout Jewish woman who read tarot.

Not all of this is Tarot per se ... but in some cultures even devout people have a level of comfort with fortune telling.

On 6/8/2024 at 10:10 PM, gregory said:

But it's also - not actually WANTING to know, so the idea that someone can tell you (generic) what is going to happen is anathema to you. I read a novel once where a travelling psychic claimed to be able to tell you the exact date of your death.

Interestingly enough. predicting death date used to be a core business for Vedic astrologers. This actually makes sense to plan for your future and your familys future. But in our modern times with the rise of consumerism and fear of death--this practice is becoming more rare even in India.

 

I think Western people are unprepared for this sort of reading [death prediction]. We are individualistic and often emotionally immature. The main reason for the death reading is to help your family. It isn't even about *you*. Hopefully this makes sense.

 

But touching upon the 2nd reason people fear Tarot--it makes accurate predictions. At times this facet has scared even me, and I'm a seasoned reader. So I can see how it might be "too freaky" for Jane Q. Public.

Edited June 10, 2024 by Misterei

[gregory]

59 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Interestingly enough. predicting death date used to be a core business for Vedic astrologers. This actually makes sense to plan for your future and your familys future. But in our modern times with the rise of consumerism and fear of death--this practice is becoming more rare even in India.

 

 

Sure - and the kind of people who fear Tarot will also fear this. To each their own. We REALLY need to allow for that - all of us.

[RunningWild]

Gregory mentioned predestination.  I think most people publicly would declare free will as their belief but perhaps privately believe in some form of predestination in certain matters.

 

I also feel some folks might fear that a reader will ‘see’ a truth they’d just as soon leave unexposed.  So it’s not a fear of the cards exactly.  It might just be a general uneasiness about the whole ‘psychic’ gig.  So they might not believe in any of it but just in case it’s real, they’d rather not.

[Deian]

There is inner part to this, though. I think that missing can lead to Tarot seeming scary to people, as its not connected to what they know.

In some perspectives out there Tarot is viewed as reflecting inner processes. Our inner world is reflected in the events we see all around us, some call that "the mirroring process" or other stuff.
If we consider it from that view, there is no difference between inner process and outside events. Stuff happen because its in us and we can see it better that way. We change our inner flows and worlds and outside changes readily, right away.

While modern psychology seems to again be derailing in useless directions, it seems to be the other half that practitioners may, in some cases be missing. That events are not always "out there" not connected to anything and random in their essence, but can be viewed as unavoidably growing from our own inner worlds.

That changes a lot as with it the most powerful form of divination is just to know yourself and how it all works. Then you know what events will happen, as they are unavoidable. Cards can help, if we miss something, but what they show we should already know. If we don't, then its very likely the reading is missing something.
Just my view, of course and I don't mean specific members here, just the general arrangement I think can be missing, at times.

 

But then that is why Tarot may seem scary. If it reflects what we need to learn, same way as outside events do, then nothing scary about it, this is all us. But if there is no inner path and meaning, it provides "accuracy" by some unknown mechanism not contained within us, then it can become scary as it doesn't fit into us and what we know.
And what one doesn't know can be scary.

Yet then if Tarot just reflects inner mechanisms that are also reflected in everything around us, then why use Tarot or other Divination system?And in my view, because sometimes we miss stuff. Yet I do think we can read as accurately, just by looking at seemingly "random" events around us.
Was thinking of posting a topic about it, but never got to it, actually...

[gregory]

The mirroring thing, though, is something that I do actually buy into: seeing the parts of ourselves that are hiding inside us - but it happens when we read for ourselves. I doubt if we can see into the mirrors of others.

[Deian]

I think we can't fully. As its whole different universe there. There are similarities, however, and that is what we divine for others based on I guess... We see something we already know and recognize it in there.

 

I wonder if one of the reasons the eastern systems, sometimes, avoid being too accurate is for that. They don't use too precise calculation, sometimes, solar time and other stuff, even though it clearly is affecting the chart.
I would guess one of the reasons for that, is because the readings will always be based on how much of the other person we can recognize in our own world. No matter what techniques we use, to understand what it says, we need to go back to how we view the world and its relations. Not being too accurate, can help the whole process "fit it all" together better. Providing a "wrong" chart to read on, but one that resonates better with us, so we can say the accurate prediction, even though its on inaccurate(seemingly) base.
If instead we fit it, perfectly, it may show precisely, the position of the Sun(for example), also with that potentially show better the actual movements in the person, yet that and the actual challenge of the chart, may be something we could end up not knowing, as we just haven't faced in that way, exactly, so more likely to miss the point with it... So more accurate could mean less accurate, if we restrict how much randomness(so feedback from the process around us) we leave space for.

 

Just guessing, but in some systems they view "mirroring sphere" around people and externalizing beyond it is something that happens a lot less often then many believe, when it comes to metaphysics.

[Misterei]

10 hours ago, Deian said:

... Cards ... show [what] we should already know. ...

... that is why Tarot may seem scary. If it reflects what we need to learn ...

Interesting take. And quite true in my observation.

9 hours ago, gregory said:

The mirroring thing, though, is something that I do actually buy into: seeing the parts of ourselves that are hiding inside us - but it happens when we read for ourselves. I doubt if we can see into the mirrors of others.

It may be semantics [how you define mirroring] but I often feel that my readings for clients shine a light into a *blind spot*. Most of my clients are happy with this. It's what they pay me for. But every once in a while I get a client who did NOT want this. They reject it, feel angry, and never return.

 

Likewise I have blind spots which DON'T get illuminated when i read for myself. When I get someone to read for me they shine the light where I was in denial/darkness. This happened with the medicine I now take. I had a blind spot / phobia which prevented me from trying it [yes there are real risks, but the blind spot was all me]. I got a reading from G. who said definitely I should try the medicine. Even after the reading it took 5 months to accept and act on it.

 

LOL I must email G. and tell her she was right. I remember arguing with her when she first gave that reading b/c it was such a blind spot for me.

[gregory]

Your reading shines into a blind spot for your client. You didn't see it, but what you said shone the light.

[Deian]

It makes sense! : )

About the blindspot... Well, it depends on what level we view it I think. As there seems to be more then one way to look at it, all valid, but in different way. But if we view it as some orders did decades ago as a sphere that practitioners have difficult time 'externalizing' beyond, then it becomes connected to the transition in what some call 3rd initiation.

That can also be viewed as rising of kundalini / focus from Solar Plexus to the Heart, but since in this context is all very similar, lets just call it 2nd to 3rd initiation.

 

Its probably good to expand on this a little right now, for non related reasons to the topic. : )
What does that mean... Lets say we have a metaphysical practitioner person that want to go to an event. Will learn new stuff, meet new people etc.

2 days before the event his left leg starts hurting.

2nd initiation approach. They want to go to the event, they are motivated and they know they have to accomplish what they want. So they ask divination system how to go to the event in the least effortless way possible. System responds they need another kind of transport. They go to the event, learn new things and even start moving in entirely new direction they hope will be beneficial.
Alternative ways - they make other kinds of manipulation on the events so their leg heals fast or in worse case take painkillers and go to the event. Same result.

 

3rd initiation approach. They know that isn't created by accident, so they make divination why they shouldn't go to the event, right away. The answer is, because that will provide another direction that will waste their time and lose opportunities to finish other projects that are vital for events in the future. Person understands, forgets about the event and their leg stops hurting right away.

 

So in 2nd initiation approach one changes the world to fit into what they want. In 3rd initiation one works together with the world to see what is best for everyone involved.

3rd initiation is sometimes considered first moment when one starts to go beyond the "reflective" spheres and other stuff like that. One can externalize now, not just change events with strong images in their own fields, but really connect to levels they haven't fully opened yet.