Beginner's choice of deck

[Scandinavianhermit]

After consulting Daniel earlier today, I decided to start a thread about what to keep in mind if you are a beginner and on your way to chose a tarot deck. These are advices I wish I had received when I was younger.

 

I will post advice here in small portions, beginning with these subject matters, in the next few days or weeks. I know from experience, that it's easier to finish a project, if I divide it in smaller segments.

 

1. Do you have a firm opinion on the sequential position of Justice and Strength? This matters. 
2. Do you expect a Popess, a High Priestess or the goddess Juno? Choose wisely!
3. Danes and the French still play games with tarot. Their decks may surprise you, positively or negatively.
4. What an Etteilla tarot is and what it's not.
5. Is kabbalah and ceremonial magic(k) really important for you, or not? Or: Not all hermetic(k) (c)kabbalah is English. Also known as: Do you believe, that the Aeon of Horus has begun?
6. Vintage style and a hyper modern style seldom mix. To each their own.
7. Hand painted isn't woodcut print, and vice versa – not to mention engraved prints.
8. Yes! Italian regional decks do exist.
9. Marseille I and Marseille II.
10. Belgian tarot, Besançon tarot, revolutionary tarot and Piedmontese tarot.
11. What is an RWCS clone?
12. Not all non-scenic decks are "Marseilles" decks.
13. Not all scenic decks are RWCS clones.
14. A facsimile and a restoration are not the same thing.
15. Cat tarot is an entire sub-genre. Though not my cuppa tea, perhaps your?

 

My first, and my most general, advice is something doubtlessly everyone here will agree with: Choose a tarot deck that appeals to you! That said: An informed choice is useful.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit
revolutionary and spelling

[Scandinavianhermit]

1. Do you have a firm opinion on the sequential position of Justice and Strength? This matters. 

 

It may come as a surprise, but the trumps* do not always follow the same order, even in decks which name them identically or similarly. I will return to this subject matter, when I explain regional Italian tarot decks and the Etteilla tarot.

 

If you decide to buy a Marseille deck or any deck descended from Milanese tarot, you will find, that Justice is numbered VIII. (8) and that Strength/Force/Bravery is numbered XI. (11).

 

If you decide to buy a deck influenced by English, but not French, ceremonial magic in the 1890s, you will find, that Strength is numbered VIII. (8) and that Justice is numbered XI. (11). The most famous tarot deck influenced by English ceremonial magic is the Rider-Waite deck (1909), but it has afterwards inspired or spawned uncountable "clones". More contemporary versions of the Rider-Waite usually call it the Rider-Waite-Colman-Smith (RWCS) in order to give the artist the credit she deserves. I will return to this subject matter.

 

Another incredibly famous tarot deck is Thoth Tarot (1944) – not to be confused with the Etteilla deck known as Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot. Unlike the Rider-Waite, and despite being influenced by English ceremonial magic,  the Thoth from 1944 keep Justice as VIII./8, but renames it Adjustment. Strength is kept as XI./11, but is renamed Lust. I will return to this subject matter, and explain why some, mainly English speaking, ceremonial magicians are obsessed with the letter K and the number 93.

 

If you have a firm opinion about the sequential placement of Justice and Strength, check before buying, that the deck you are considering follows the sequence of your choice.

 

* The word trump comes from the Italian word trionfi, which means "triumph", because, in Italian card games, the 21 trumps in a tarot deck are used to trump cards belonging to the four suites. The unnumbered Fool is used as a wild card.

Edited August 7, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit
Etteilla

[Scandinavianhermit]

2. Do you expect a Popess, a High Priestess or the goddess Juno? Choose wisely!

 

The earliest tarot decks were hand painted and didn't carry any written titles. By the early 16th century, the second trump and the fifth trump had achieved the titles "Popess" and "Pope", respectively.

 

In parts of Europe, where the population was either homogeneously Catholic or homogeneously Lutheran, these titles weren't controversial, and were thus retained, because they were traditional, and card players were accustomed to them.

 

In parts of Europe with a mixed Catholic-Reformed population, on the other hand, these two cards ran the risk of being controversial, but for opposite reasons. In easternmost France and in Switzerland cardmakers decided to switch artistic motif on these trumps. Instead of the Popess, the card depicted the Roman goddess Juno, wife of Jupiter and queen of the deities. Instead of the Pope, the card depicted the Roman god Jupiter, king of the deities. Traditionally, Juno is depicted with a peacock, Jupiter with an eagle and a thunderbolt. By doing so, card makers were able to sell tarot decks even to card players with sensitive consciences. 

 

From the 1780s, an idea emerged, that tarot was an invention by Egyptians in classical antiquity (c. 3000 BCE to c. 400 CE). Today, we know, that this hypothesis about tarot's origin was erroneous, but for a time it was very influential. Tarot designers influenced by this hypothesis decided to re-style the Popess as The High Priestess and the Pope as The Hierophant (or titles resembling these).

 

Today the choice between the three is a matter of personal taste. Some prefer a deck with the traditional titles Popess and Pope (most Marseille decks, for instance). Some prefer a deck with Juno and Jupiter (the 1JJ Swiss Tarot, for instance). Some prefer a deck with a High Priestess and a Hierophant (the RWCS and many of its clones, for instance).

 

In Belgium the design of trumps II. (2) and V. (5) was changed in yet another manner, but I will return to the Belgian tarot later.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit

[Misterei]

Juno and Jupiter bother me a little b/c they seem too much like Empress and Emperor. Whereas the other titles are clearly religious human figures and thus different from Empress and Emperor.

[Scandinavianhermit]

3 hours ago, Misterei said:

Juno and Jupiter bother me a little b/c they seem too much like Empress and Emperor. Whereas the other titles are clearly religious human figures and thus different from Empress and Emperor.

Though I had no problem with distinguishing Juno from Empress and Jupiter from Emperor back when I used 1JJ Swiss Tarot many years ago, I can understand, that the risk for confusion is present. Thank you for sharing your experience.  If our posts in this thread will assist beginners in making an informed choice, when they decide which deck to buy, I'm happy.

 

I'm not taking sides on the matter in this thread. My own preferences are of no consequence, because we are all individuals with different preferences. Someone (let's say a young Pagan with negative experiences from chapel) expecting to buy a deck with a High Priestess, but finding a Popess instead, will be disappointed. Someone (let's say a history buff fascinated by the late renaissance) expecting to buy a deck with a Popess, but finding Juno or a High Priestess, will be equally disappointed, and if they do not actively search for the style of deck produced in Switzerland and east France, Juno will just be bewildering. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

3. Danes and the French still play games with tarot. Their decks may surprise you, positively or negatively.

 

Tarot began as a game, let's not forget that. The particular needs of card players and cartomancers, respectively, do not always coincide. By the 1740s, some card makers began to experiment with the scenery depicted on the 21 trumps and the wild card, distancing themselves considerably from the depictions an average cartomancer is familiar with, as long as a structure of 22 non-suite cards was retained. The mechanism of a game isn't affected by artistic choice, as long as the number of cards is retained. 

 

In Germany and Austria, the word for tarot, "tarock" or "tarok", was used indistinguishably about both decks with traditional trump scenes derived from 15th century Milan and decks with inventive new trump scenes from the 18th and 19th centuries. The most famous deck(s) of this newer type is allegedly the Industrie und Glück  style. Another link.

 

The word tarock (or tarok) is also used about several card games played with 54 cards or 36 cards – decks considerably different from what an average cartomancer expect when (s)he buys a tarot deck. 

 

In France and Denmark tarot games using a full 78 card deck are still popular, but the Italian suites (batons, cups, swords, coins) are long replaced with French suites (clubs, hearts, spades and diamonds). Likewise, when Marseille-style tarot decks attracted cartomancers and esotericists, many card players preferred to switch to more "everyday" scenery on the trumps. Austrian, French and Danish tarot decks for card players will, in most cases,* not meet the needs or expectations of a cartomancer. 

 

* According to Wikipedia, the Industrie und Glück deck was used for divinatory purposes when it was imported to Argentina. I have no first hand information about this. It would be lovely to hear more about this from any Argentinian forum users in a separate thread dedicated to the subject matter. 

Edited August 8, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit
"was", not "were"

[Scandinavianhermit]

4. What an Etteilla tarot is and what it's not.

 

Divination with a 52 playing card deck is known from the early-to-mid-16th century, but the card deck wasn't used for spreads, but as a tool to randomize oracular or moral verses from sortilege books. The book, not the deck, was the main component of the method.

 

Decks designed for divinatory use without any accompanying book are known from England in the 1690s (Lenthall cards) and south Germany (Schwaben/Swabia) in the 1710s (Geistliche Karten), the latter with a particularly Catholic slant.

 

Divination with a piquet deck (32 cards), a 52 card deck or a Bolognese tarot deck (62 cards) using a spread (initially rectangular) is known from the 1750s – with 36 card decks becoming popular from the late 18th century.

 

Two engravers, François de Poilly (1623-1693) and his son François Poilly (1666-1741), designed three sets of highly edited and experimental minchiate decks collectively known as Minchiate Francesi – one of them with 98 cards, one of them with 97 cards and one of them, resembling an "ordinary" tarot deck, with 78 cards, but all of them were, initially, intended for playing card games.

 

Court de Gebelin and Comte de Mellet wrote two essays published in 1781 proposing the influential, but now infamous, hypothesis, that the 78 card tarot deck actually had its origin in Egypt in classical antiquity (c. 3000 BCE to c. 400 CE), being "the Book of Thoth". In Gebelin's and de Mellet's days, hieroglyphics weren't yet deciphered. That happened in 1822, when Jean-François Champollion successfully used the Rosetta stone to understand hieroglyphics. We now know about several literary pieces from ancient Egypt known as the Book of Thoth, the most famous one edited, translated and analysed by Richard Lewis Jasnow and Karl-Theodor Zauzich, but none of these have anything to do with the tarot. We now know, that the mamluk deck (52 cards with anionic court cards) was brought from 14th century Egypt to Spain, Italy, Switzerland and the southernmost parts of Germany.*

 

If I remember correctly, Jean-Baptiste Aliette was a wholesale dealer also dabbling in the printing industry. He was not, as some of his later detractors claimed, a whig-maker or hair dresser. He had taken an interest in cartomancy with a 32 card deck in 1770, allegedly under the influence of card reading methods from the north-western part of the Italian peninsula (Piedmont/Piemonte), but the latter claim might be legendary and used to make his claims seem more "exotic" and marketable. He used the pen-name "Etteilla", formed by spelling his surname backwards.

 

When Gebelin's and de Mellet's claim, that tarot was of ancient Egyptian origin, emerged, Etteilla was convinced, and he turned his focus to tarot. Later detractors shunned his work as random disfigurement of the original tarot with ideas entirely out of whole cloth. Actually, Etteilla combined ideas found in diverse sources: The regional Besançon style tarot, the regional Aluette deck, the Minchiate Francesi, Gebelin and de Mellet, also recycling some of his own method for reading a piquet deck. Since hieroglyphics hadn't been deciphered yet, educated Europeans at the time relied on Corpus Hermeticum to reliantly describe ancient Egyptian religion and worldview. The Hermetic scriptures emerged between the 1st century CE (with a possible pre-history a century earlier than that) and the late 3d century CE, fusing elements of ancient Egyptian religion, Judaism and a branch of pagan Greek philosophy known as Middle Platonism, into a hybrid or synthesis. Etteilla knew Corpus Hermeticum, and approached tarot through that lens. He suspected, that the sequence of trumps had been corrupted over time, and worked hard to restructure the sequence of trumps into something he believed was the "correct" order of trumps. He borrowed card No. 1 "Chaos" from Minchiate Francesi. He borrowed the idea, that some trumps corresponds with the symbolic days of creation in the Book of Genesis, from Gebelin and de Mellet. He borrowed the association between Five of Coins and sex from the Aluette deck. And so on. 

 

Why should buyers beware? It depends entirely if you appreciate Etteilla's reshuffling of trumps, or not. If you are, or become, an Etteilla fan, take a look at all tarot decks in Etteilla style available (there are several!) before you decide which one to buy, but if you expect a more "standard" ordering of trumps and Fool, Etteilla's reshuffling will be bewildering and quite disappointing. 

 

Etteilla had his own occult tarot printed in 1789, shortly before his death in 1791, but during the 19th century several card makers printed their own takes on the Etteilla deck concept, or even hybrid decks (1826, 1838, 1843, 1860). Even rather faithful reproductions of Etteilla's own deck have been tampered with. The upward and upside down keywords of Ace of Batons (Wands) have been switched and switched back several times throughout the last c. 240 years, and not all Etteilla decks includes symbols of the four elements and the twelve zodiac signs in the margin of their respective trumps.

 

The pseudonym "Lismon" (in real life Simon Blocquel) added irrelevant stock images of ancient kings and philosophers in his version of the deck in 1838.

 

A Neo-Gothic version of the Etteilla deck emerged in 1856, today reprinted as Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot, but originally Tarot Egyptien: Grand Jeu du Oracle des Dames.

 

Francisco Moreno's ("Dr. Moorne") version of the Etteilla deck has allegedly become popular in Latin America.

 

Grimaud's keywords on their Grand Etteilla were edited in 1977.

 

I've been told, that there are Lo Scarabeo and Il Melenghello versions of the Etteilla deck these days, but there are probably more well-informed users here to ask about that.

 

For comparison, I write this table:

 

1. Chaos/Etteilla = V. Pope

2. Enlightenment = XIX. Sun

3. Speech = XVIII. Moon

4. Unveiling = XVII. Star

5. Voyage = XXI. World

6. Night & Day = III. Empress

7. Protection = IV. Emperor

8. Rest/Etteilla = II. Popess

9. Justice = VIII. Justice

10. Temperance = XIV. Temperance

11. Strength = XI. Strength

12. Prudence = XII. The Hanged Man/Traitor

13. Matrimony = VI. Lover

14. Force Majeure** = XV. The Devil

15. Illness = I. The Wand bearer/Mountebank

16. Last Judgment = XX. Last Judgment

17. Death = XIII. Unnamed

18. Traitor = IX. Hermit

19. Misery = XVI. The God-house

20. Luck = X. Wheel of Fortune

21. Division = VII. The Chariot

78. Fool = Unnumbered. Fool

 

* Well, actually, none of these regions had become Spain, Italy, Switzerland or Germany at the time. They consisted of several independent and semi-independent political entities at the time.

 

** Force majeure is a juridical term used in insurance business. It is damage caused by such disasters not covered by insurance.

 

[Scandinavianhermit]

4a. Corrections about the Etteilla tradition

 

I should have known better, but neither listening to gossip without checking the claims, nor posting in haste before running to the bus, are good ideas, so here followeth some corrections:

 

1. The correct spelling of the famous (and rather expensive) high quality tarot publisher is of course Il Meneghello, not my embarrassing misspelling Il Melenghello. I'm very sorry. 
2. I have to ask collectors, if it's really true, that Il Meneghello published an Etteilla edition in the past. I'm unable to find any in their present catalogue.
3. Lo Scarabeo do indeed publish a reprint of Tarot Egyptien: Grand Jeu du Oracle des Dames under the name Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot. After a phone call to a friend, he confirmed that Lo Scarabeo once published a new edition of Etteilla's original deck from 1789 under the name Etteilla Tarot, but it seems like that deck has been discontinued.
4. Small niche publishers now and then print small editions of either the 1789, the 1826, the 1838 or the 1860 versions of the Etteilla deck, but my knowledge about what has happened more recently is either limited or absent. I lost touch with the world of Etteilla reproductions 10-15 years ago.
5. For "anionic", of course read: "aniconic". Avoiding depiction of persons, the court cards in the mamluk deck have calligraphy.

Edited August 8, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit

[Misterei]

@Scandinavianhermit

 

answers in purple

Do you have a firm opinion on the sequential position of Justice and Strength? This matters. 

Not really. For teaching I use Justice as #11 b/c most students are studying RWS system. Also I like the numerology which relates #11 to #2.

However, I can easily adjust to using Justices a #8 in those decks. I adjust my numerology accordingly.

 

Is kabbalah and ceremonial magic(k) really important for you, or not? Or: Not all hermetic(k) (c)kabbalah is English. Also known as: Do you believe, that the Aeon of Horus has begun?

Absolutely not. I feel the mixture with Kabbalah actually harmed Tarot by imposing an artificial system on it.

I follow Crowley and his philosophy somewhat. Aeion of Horus? Hmm. The Indians have yuga and this is Kali Yuga. They Mayans also had their own aeonic time cycles. I would look more to planets and the precession of the equinox to judge this.

.

Vintage style and a hyper modern style seldom mix. To each their own.

I feel the plethora of modern decks also harm Tarot. I iike LightSeers and a couple others, but mostly I find them ignorant and shallow.

 

Hand painted isn't woodcut print, and vice versa – not to mention engraved prints.

There was a grace to the original hand-painted Tarocchi that was lost with sloppy woodcut Marseille. Today I still prefer hand-drawn or painted. The reliance on digital art and Photoshop debases art. The exception is Ciro Marchetti decks which have a hand-painted level of skill.

 

Marseille I and Marseille II.

Not a fan of TdM and don't really know the difference [although I should]

 

Belgian tarot, Besançon tarot, revolutionary tarot and Piedmontese tarot.

Piedmontese!

 

What is an RWCS clone? Based on the RWS system and symbolism. But it's starting to get stupid with clones of clones of clones. See my comments on shallow modern decks };>

 

Not all non-scenic decks are "Marseilles" decks.

Thank god! I'm a Tarocchi person, myself. I have TdM only for teaching. I read with Italian decks.

 

Cat tarot is an entire sub-genre. Though not my cuppa tea, perhaps your?

See my comments on Modern decks becoming shallow. I *do* have one Il Meneghello deck which is Trumps only as cats. I got it for the whimsical artwork. I don't read with it.

 

cheers! Fun questions.

Edited August 8, 2024 by Misterei

[Scandinavianhermit]

5. Is kabbalah and ceremonial magic(k) really important for you, or not?

Or: Not all hermetic(k) (c)kabbalah is English;

Also known as:

Do you believe, that the Aeon of Horus has begun?

BEING A NON-PICKTORIAL CKEY TO A HIDDEN TRADITION VEILED IN ALLEGORY AND REVEALED IN SYMBOLS

WITHIN THE PRONAOS BEFORE THE TELESTERION

Sub figura Kaph Beth

Ad astra per aspera.

777 = 888!!!!!

 

PART ONE

 

If book titles resembling the title above does not feel intimidating or ridiculous, and if you even find titles such as the one above attractive and appealing, the esoteric tarot milieu is certainly for you!*

 

I know people, who find such book titles exaggerated or pompous. I also know persons, who used the esoteric approach to the tarot successfully for the purpose of outgrowing a taste for book titles like that, and who now look at such titles with serene and semi-illuminated patience. Lo! The magical methods worked!

 

The actual content of (some of) these books (once deciphered) or the efficiency of (some of) the methods described therein are often considerably better, than the particular (to some extent dated) subcultural style through which the content is –as it were– conveyed. Ceremonial magicians in the Victorian age and the Edwardian age were in a habit of writing in a literary style often felt to be less accessible to us present readers, than it presumably once was to bygone authors, and the literary style I am using in this sentence is lightweight in comparison, and bear the mark of an infantilically disentangled levity neither Arthur Edward Waite, nor Aleister Crowley, would have ever chosen to use for any literary endeavours, particularly not about sensitive matters like esoterica and the Arcane Magisterium of The Hidden Tradition. 😐

 

Before I continue, I will also add, that it is perfectly possible to read cards without having the faintest interest in kabbalah, ceremonial magic or general esotericism. Some persons buy Wirth's trumps, Papus-based decks, any Rider-Waite-Colman-Smith deck or Crowley/Harris' famous Thoth Tarot, because they find them pretty, and don't have the foggiest and don't give a damn about kabbalah, ceremonial magic or general esotericism. The opposite is equally true: If you do not have an eager interest in an esoteric-kabbalistic-magical approach to tarot, esoteric-kabbalistic-magical tarot decks aren't necessarily the first choice to look for, despite their mass-popularity on the market. There is a big difference, between buying RWCS or Thoth Tarot out of peer pressure, and buying any of them because you really like the deck.

 

Esotericism is the opposite of exotericism. The expression "exoteric religion" refer to easily accessible aspects of each religion: The five daily prayers of Islam, the Nicene Creed in Christianity, the Shema in Judaism, and the five moral precepts in Buddhism, for instance. The expression "esoteric religion" refer to expressions of religion not easily practiced by everyone: Sufi methods of meditation within Islam, mysticism based upon the hesychasts, Eckehart or Jakob Böhme within Christianity, Kabbalah within Judaism, and secretive Tibetan methods of visualization within Buddhism, for instance. Since the late 15th century and the early 16th century, there exist the idea, that some or many religions' esoteric expressions share an affinity or similarity. That belief is called Philosophia Perennis. The early proponents of the belief in Philosophia Perennis were Catholic clergymen, Augustine Steuchius (who used the term Theologia Prisca for almost the same idea) among them, but, by the 19th century, the concept was circulating in many western milieus, even those vaguely inspired by Hinduism and Buddhism, like the Theosophical Society (founded in New York, 1875). Today you find the concept everywhere, though not necessarily under that particular label. 

 

The word kabbalah is Hebrew, and it means approximately "the received tradition". From c. 1200 in the south of France the word refer to a particular flavour of Jewish mysticism developed by Rabbi Isaac the Blind. There exist non-kabbalistic Jewish mysticism, but some of the originally non-kabbalistic flavours of Jewish mysticism –particularly the book Sefer Yetzirah– became integrated or assimilated into Kabbalah. Kabbalah spread from the south of France, because of yet another wave of persecution, and ended up (for a while) in Spain, because Spain (for a while) was a more tolerant place than France. Kabbalah flourished in Spanish cities like Gerona, Barcelona, Guadalajara, Valladolid and Ávila. In 1492, the Spanish king and queen exiled Spain's entire Jewish population, the Sephards. They ended up in north-Italian duchies and city-republics or in the Ottoman empire, including the Syropalestinian province of the latter, particularly and famously in a town called Safed (Tzfat), which still is a centre for traditional rabbinical kabbalah. In the latter place the influential kabbalistic thinkers Moshe Cordovero and Isaac Luria adapted kabbalah into a new phase, better explained in the proper sub-forum. 

 

Meanwhile, in the late 15th century, some Christian thinkers reasoned like this: Since Christianity share the Hebrew Bible with Judaism, and since a Philosophia Perennis exists, Kabbalah must be applicable to Christianity, too! Johann Reuchlin, Athanasius Kircher, Henry More, Anne Conway and Franciscus Mercurius van Helmont all belong to that particular use of kabbalah – known as "Christian kabbalah".

 

It didn't take long until very selective excerpts from kabbalah became used for magical or semi-magical practices within gentile milieus. Eventually this became known as "Hermetic kabbalah", but the very selective approach to Rabbinical kabbalah makes Hermetic kabbalah quite another animal than its Jewish source. Generally, Hermetic kabbalah has a sort of bad reputation among rabbinic kabbalists. Gentile kabbalists are seldom interested in such things as how a proper daily use of the Jewish prayerbook, and the use of etrog fruits in the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles, theurgically helps the entire cosmos to recover from a primordial catastrophe. 

 

Some, but not all, persons prefer to spell the word kabbalah in three different ways (kabbalah for the rabbinical variety; cabala for the Christian variety and qabalah for the Hermetic one) but this is a very random choice and far from universal. The word is spelled in one and the same only way, if you use Hebrew letters.

 

And now you ask, where does Madonna fit into all this? I will return to that later.

 

The part of kabbalah most popular among tarot fans actually predates kabbalah proper. The abovementioned book, Sefer Yetzirah, is a speculative work imagining vast cosmological correspondences between the 22 Hebrew letters and such things as the element of Fire, the element of Air, the element of Water, the five planets known in ancient society (i.e. not Uranus and Neptune), the two luminaries (i.e. the Sun and the Moon) and the 12 zodiacal signs. 

 

Comte de Mellet, mentioned under subject matter No. 4 above, noticed that the non-suite cards in a tarot deck equals 22, the same number as Hebrew letters. He thought, that The World corresponded to the letter Aleph, the Fool to the letter Tav. He had begun a debate, that would never end!

 

Alphonse Louis Constant, a former Catholic deacon, a mesmerist and a socialist, who wrote under the pseudonym Eliphas Levi, selectively accepted some and rejected some of de Mellet's and Etteilla's ideas, building an entirely different system of esotericism and magic. Among French occultists he is very famous, but less so in the English speaking world. In his early works, Levi experimented with one list of correspondences, but in his mature work La Clef des grands mystères (1861) he presented the list of correspondences between Hebrew letters, elements, planets and zodiacal signs, that was later transmitted by the tarot designers Robert Falconnier (illustrated by Maurice Otto Wegener), Oswald Wirth (illustrated by himself) and Papus (illustrated by Jean Gabriel Goulinat). In the French speaking world, they are very famous, but less so in the English speaking one.

 

Eliphas Levi also has several posthumous disciples in United Kingdom, and they, though digressing from Levi's system of letter correspondences and also quarrelling between themselves, are very influential in the English speaking world: Arthur Edward Waite (illustrated by Pamela Colman Smith) and Aleister Crowley (illustrated by Lady Frieda Harris). I will return to these five writers and their five artists in the next chapter, among other things explaining Mr. Crowleys thing for the letter K and the number 93. This post is becoming long-winded, and I have no intention to tire any reader.

 

To be continued.

 

 

* If you are willing to eventually free yourself from the subcultural cocoon or chrysalis through which this content is transmitted, that is. Ceremonial magic is supposed to further liberation and personal growth. If it doesn't, we are doing it wrong.

 

I hope 😐 means deadpan. Does it?

 

 

[Mikeyc]

I think your getting hung up on too many details.

The way I read all "pip" cards in any deck bring me meaning.  The deck is not as important as the reading and understanding is

 

Once you know Tarot the deck does not matter.  Then again I use Jung, Open Reading and Concesness (SP?)  So it may just be because of my style

[gregory]

On 8/8/2024 at 12:11 PM, Scandinavianhermit said:

4a. Corrections about the Etteilla tradition

 

I should have known better, but neither listening to gossip without checking the claims, nor posting in haste before running to the bus, are good ideas, so here followeth some corrections:

 

1. The correct spelling of the famous (and rather expensive) high quality tarot publisher is of course Il Meneghello, not my embarrassing misspelling Il Melenghello. I'm very sorry. 

 

You are forgiven ! It's nowhere near as bad as the routine appearance of the "Raider Waite" in posts on this forum 

 

On 8/8/2024 at 12:11 PM, Scandinavianhermit said:

1. I have to ask collectors, if it's really true, that Il Meneghello published an Etteilla edition in the past. I'm unable to find any in their present catalogue.

I think not. I own MANY of their decks and never saw that - but I will check i\the info I have when I get home.

 

On 8/8/2024 at 12:11 PM, Scandinavianhermit said:

1. Lo Scarabeo do indeed publish a reprint of Tarot Egyptien: Grand Jeu du Oracle des Dames under the name Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot. After a phone call to a friend, he confirmed that Lo Scarabeo once published a new edition of Etteilla's original deck from 1789 under the name Etteilla Tarot, but it seems like that deck has been discontinued.

 

It was a one-off special, done via Kickstarter,  to mark their 30th birthday.

 

 

[geoxena]

Personally, I didn't need to know any of this stuff when I started reading tarot in the late '70s/early '80s.  Nor do I need to know it now.  I look at the pictures, which help stimulate my intuition, and say what comes to me.  Boom, done.

Edited October 31, 2024 by geoxena

[gregory]

26 minutes ago, geoxena said:

Personally, I didn't need to know any of this stuff when I started reading tarot in the late '70s/early '80s.  Nor do I need to know it now.  I look at the pictures, which help stimulate my intuition, and say what comes to me.  Boom, done.

 

Yes indeed; so do I. But approaches do differ 

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

yes indeed; so do I. But approaches do differ 

This is something I've come to appreciate with Tarot. I personally rejected applying Hermetic Kabbalah to Tarot -- but I never would have learnt any Kabbalah if not for Tarot. Later i became enamoured with Tarocchi's possible / likely NeoPlatonic roots and again, something I never would have learned had Tarot not led me there. My personal style depends on astrology. Most people not so much. But that's my sweet spot 😇

[Chariot]

Your information is amazingly detailed and interesting, @Scandinavianhermit.  However, I'm wondering if it might not be a tad overwhelming for a beginner?

You're right, these issues should be considered whenever buying a deck.  BUT, is a beginner going to know whether the Strength card and the Justice card should be swapped, or whether they should choose a Papess instead of a HIgh Priestess or a Juno, etc?  I suppose it depends on what level of beginner they might be, but I think, in order to deal with the issues you have presented here, they would have had to do a great deal of preliminary study.  Would they have done that study without actually owning a deck?

I know if I'd read this complex thread as a rank beginner, I'd already be 50 miles closer to the HIgh Hills, where I would plan to hide. 🙂

For a beginner, I'd suggest they consider:
1) how do they plan to begin learning the tarot?  From a mentor or friend, from a class, from the internet, from books?  From this forum? From simply intuitively 'reading' the cards, based on the illustrations on the cards?
2) what do they hope to learn FROM the tarot?  How to predict the future?  How to learn more about themselves and other people?  To study motivation and hidden talents and weaknesses?  Help in choosing/avoiding a path?

Then I would recommend they choose a deck that contains images that already seem to mean something to them.  Are there stories in the illustrations that they can already follow?  That's a good place to start, in my opinion.

YouTube flip-throughs are a fantastic resource.  I wish I'd had them when I began with tarot, over 50 years ago.  For me, at the time, choosing a deck was easy.  There was only one freely available where I lived ...the classic RWS!  It was choose to do the tarot, or choose not to.  Thankfully, I chose to do tarot and bought the deck ...which I still own.  I could have done worse, and maybe having thousands of decks to choose from would have been intimidating more than helpful.  Dunno.  

I do think pointing out that there are several 'systems' to choose from: Thoth, RWS, Marseilles, etc is worth mentioning, though. You've done a great job discussing the differences.  I'd hate to have bought a book pertaining to the Thoth system, then tried to reconcile it with my RWS standard deck.  So well done, making this distinction clear.
 

Edited October 31, 2024 by Chariot

[JoyousGirl]

Whilst this text demonstrates a lot, this is almost a book's worth of reading for something which, in my opinion should be an intuitive, inspired decision. Agonising over the decision may mean that it's not for you. If you are on a limited income, and it will be the only deck you ever have, it might apply, however.   Yet, we should also imbue a deck with respect for the work it will do. Spiritualising it, making it sacred, otherwise it might be just another chattel. If this is your reasoning, then I can accept the work to do.

 

My personal belief is that the historical background work that has been done is good to have as reference material, and is available for study if you so choose that as a hobby.  However, I am a strong believer in building knowledge, not just repeating  what others have said, because nothing else will be discovered. Besides, were they 100% right?  If we proceed from an incorrect starting premise, the trajectory widens the error the further we go. Personal tarot journals full of reflections further this work.  Maybe this is the human problem of overintellectualising everything,, building in stone, rather than migrating with the seasons and being flexible and letting the breeze flow through our leaves as it will.

 

Reading is very much a personal experience, a bit like a relationship with our 'God'.  The understanding that develops is very much derived from interactions.  Too much focus on what someone wrote in the past and how others think means that we might devolve into intellectual status, be too certain rather than leaving space, and be very process based in our Tarot reading.  That may mean that there's no space for intuition to flow.  

 

In summary, get a deck, take the first step, then see where it leads (feel into what you're thinking, be guided by what you unearth then follow the path you're suggesting Scandh).

 

 

Edited October 31, 2024 by JoyousGirl

[Mikeyc]

It seems most forget the Spread used.  As this is how you “see” the question. 
it’s more important than most realize.  

[CuppaT]

I am so new to all of this. It's like a foreign language. I need a kindergarten level tarot class.

[Scandinavianhermit]

12 hours ago, CuppaT said:

I am so new to all of this. It's like a foreign language. I need a kindergarten level tarot class.

 

Here goes:

 

1. Why do I write this message?

– I wish to prevent buyer's regret. Buy a deck that appeals to you personally! We are all individuals, each with particular likes and dislikes. I wish to assist an informed choice.

 

2 Where does tarot come from?

– Tarot began as a deck used for card games (15th century), not as a divination tool. It acquired the latter function later.

 

Tarot decks are descended from a playing card deck of 52 cards.

 

3. What is a tarot deck?

– The most widespread type of tarot deck consists of 78 cards:

• four suites (just like a poker deck), but instead of hearts, clubs, spades and diamonds, it has cups, batons (or wands), swords and coins (or pentacles). 
• 21 trump cards, among 19th century Occultists known as the Greater Arcana, but the expression trump cards is fine – art historians and card players says "trump cards"
• One wild card, usually known as The Fool

Just like the poker deck, each suite consists of ten pip cards (ace, deuce, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) and a set of court cards. While the poker deck has three court cards – King, Queen and Knave – tarot decks add a fourth one: a Knight at horseback. Tarot knaves are often known as Pages.

 

4. Are there any other traditional types of tarot decks?

– Yes. Though most tarot decks have 78 cards, there do exist a few exceptions:

• the tarot deck from Bologna (62 cards)
• the tarot deck from Sicily (64 cards)
• the Minchiate deck, aka Germini (97 cards)

5. Why does tarot decks look so different from each other?

– To begin with, the method of cardmaking has changed over time. The oldest decks were hand painted. Until the late 18th century most mass market decks were printed from woodblocks cuts. From the late 18th century, engraved copperprint became standard for awhile. Each such method gave decks produced a particular look. Some tarot users love woodblock decks, other tarot users prefer copperprint or modern reproductions of hand painted decks. Today, digital equipment has caused an explosion of new styles. 

 

Until the 1970s or 1980s, there weren't many separate decks to chose from. Card publishing companies and artists working with them have since increased the number of available decks into the overwhelming and confusing market we have today.

 

6. Any confusing details to be aware of?

– Yes, first: Two trumps in particular (No. 2 and No. 5) have been redesigned several times for several reasons. Assure yourself, before buying a deck, what these two trumps are called in the deck you consider buying. The main alternatives are:

• 2. The Popess & 5. The Pope
• 2. The Spanish Captain & 5. Bacchus
• 2. Juno & 5. Jupiter
• 2. The High Priestess & 5. The Hierophant

Second: Some tarot users are peckish with numbering of trump cards for a bag of reasons, others shrug their shoulders. Justice used to be No. 8 and Strength/Fortitude used to be No. 11. Since 1909, an increasing number of decks switch these two around. Some tarot users doesn't care how their trumps are numbered. Others prefer either the original Milanese numbering or the newly invented one. 

 

Third: A few tarot decks diverge more than usual from the more widespread naming conventions of trump cards. Some tarot users love these unusual decks, others avoid them. To this category belongs:

• Minchiate Francesi
• Etteilla's Grand Etteilla aka Book of Thoth and its derivatives
• Crowley's Thoth Tarot and its derivatives

7. Why does the Industrie und Glück deck lack any of the trump cards I've read about here or in books?

– Tarot games are still played in parts of France, Denmark, Germany and Austria. For gaming purposes, tarot decks with trump cards looking entirely different from traditional tarot decks are used. The most widespread one is the Industrie und Glück deck. With the exception of some parts of Latin America, the Industrie und Glück deck isn't used for divination. 

 

8. Why are Hebrew letters so confusing on tarot cards?

– Tarot cards didn't originally have Hebrew letters on them at all.

 

In the 1780s, someone noticed that trump cards + wild card = 22, i.e. the same number as Hebrew letters. Some persons began to suspect that this wasn't a coincidence. Skeptics believe it is entirely a coincidence. 

 

There exist several different ways to combine trump cards with Hebrew letters.

 

Don't expect all tarot decks to have Hebrew letters at all. Those who do have Hebrew letters do not all follow the same system.

 

You don't have to bother with Hebrew letters, if you don't wish to. That is just an optional extra. 

 

* * *

 

Is the above kindergarten level? If not, ask me questions, and I will try to clarify. 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit
numeric sequence, "the"

[bianc]

i would say the rider-waite is just the perfect one to start. much of the learning process in general is visual, and the waite makes the reading almost intuitive just by the imagery; it's didactical, intuitive. not to mention it's also really pretty, and a classic.

[Scandinavianhermit]

18 minutes ago, bianc said:

i would say the rider-waite is just the perfect one to start. much of the learning process in general is visual, and the waite makes the reading almost intuitive just by the imagery; it's didactical, intuitive. not to mention it's also really pretty, and a classic.

I would say Dame Fortune's Wheel Tarot is just the perfect one to start, for the same reasons you state. Its keywords goes back to the 1780s, but since some beginners need uncluttered pip cards, I would also suggest CBD Tarot de Marseille. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit
Its not it's, pressed wrong key

[Scandinavianhermit]

My answer immediately above is in great need of additional commentary.

 

Let me tell you about a friend of mine. He's been curious about tarot for awhile. The Rider-Waite-Smith wouldn't be the perfect start for him. He shun anything connected to the Order of the Golden Dawn, so he also shun Crowley's Thoth. The presence of a Popess and a Pope only draws his mind to news articles about scandals in the Catholic church, and would be distractions. On the other hand, he's one of those men (I'm another one) who think about the Roman Empire daily. He was very satisfied when I mentioned Besançon style tarot decks, and is now a happy owner of an 1JJ Swiss Tarot deck. For him, 1JJ Swiss was the perfect one to start, not one of the other ones mentioned above. 

 

What can we learn from this? That we are all individuals, and it's often a bad idea to generalise about which deck is a perfect one for beginners. Beginners aren't Borg. They are individuals. 

 

That said, I think that Dame Fortune's Wheel Tarot may function as a gateway to either Marseille decks, RWS or Etteilla decks for some beginners. It's very versatile, like an entrance with four doors. 

[Raggydoll]

10 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

My answer immediately above is in great need of additional commentary.

 

Let me tell you about a friend of mine. He's been curious about tarot for awhile. The Rider-Waite-Smith wouldn't be the perfect start for him. He shun anything connected to the Order of the Golden Dawn, so he also shun Crowley's Thoth. The presence of a Popess and a Pope only draws his mind to news articles about scandals in the Catholic church, and would be distractions. On the other hand, he's one of those men (I'm another one) who think about the Roman Empire daily. He was very satisfied when I mentioned Besançon style tarot decks, and is now a happy owner of an 1JJ Swiss Tarot deck. For him, 1JJ Swiss was the perfect one to start, not one of the other ones mentioned above. 

 

What can we learn from this? That we are all individuals, and it's often a bad idea to generalise about which deck is a perfect one for beginners. Beginners aren't Borg. They are individuals. 

 

That said, I think that Dame Fortune's Wheel Tarot may function as a gateway to either Marseille decks, RWS or Etteilla decks for some beginners. It's very versatile, like an entrance with four doors. 

I agree, there is no deck that is going to be the perfect one for every single person.

 

In the past I have helped friends, family and acquaintances find their first tarot deck. I have often let them look through my collection to see what type of decks they were drawn to. Inevitably, their individual tastes differ a lot. Most beginners though, have wanted a deck that wasn´t "too hard" to learn with. So typically nothing that required a thick guidebook with a complex system. So the best thing is to shop around and look at many different types of decks. I also don´t think it is realistic to think that you will find your ultimate 'soul mate' deck on the very first try. The goal is rather to get you going, and to find a deck that interests you enough so you'll want to actually use it. 

[gregory]

I agree so much. We all have our own baggage when it comes to such things - the deck that feels right to you is the one to start with - unless your main aim is to start "historically" or to study a particular system. If the 1JJ hadn't been the only one I could find at the time other than the Smith/Waite, which I didn't want because my partner had that, I might have been reading MUCH sooner ! (I am very old; my options were limited. But if Pagan Cats or Sweet Twilight had only been around then....)