Tarocco Siciliano - Tarot outside the box

[katrinka]

 

I'm really loving this deck. It's bridge sized (you can do small draws in your hand, like in the photo.) It's different: there are only 64 cards. There are some changes to the Majors: the Tower is strong and undamaged, the Hanged Man is hung by the neck, there's a Ship card, etc. You can see the differences here and here.

And there's a wonderful little book to learn from: Arianna Montalto's Tarocco Siciliano. Yes, it's in Italian. But we have Google Lens these days! You don't even have to type in text, just point your phone at a page:

 

See how purely cartomantic the meanings are? No navel gazing, no cliches, no new age BS. Everything is 100% useful and practical with no ambiguity. It reads true and clear. And the book contains little tips like "When you are in conflict or competition with someone, look for the 5 of Batons. The card behind it will reveal the solution to the problem."

Sometimes I see people trying to define Tarot, and the first thing they mention is that the Tarot has 78 cards. But that's not always the case: the Minchiate has 97, the Bolognese has 62 and the Siciliano has 64.

Currently the Siciliano is only published by Modiano. I wish Dal Negro would do a version, their stock is to die for. But the Modiano stock is still good and sturdy, a bit stiff at first but a few minutes of riffling and bridging breaks it in nicely. And I love the backs, they bear the wonderful trinacria.

 

[gregory]

I've had that deck for years and never actually used it. I must look into that book !

[akiva]

On 3/6/2025 at 4:26 AM, katrinka said:

I'm really loving this deck. It's bridge sized (you can do small draws in your hand, like in the photo.) It's different: there are only 64 cards. There are some changes to the Majors: the Tower is strong and undamaged, the Hanged Man is hung by the neck, there's a Ship card, etc. You can see the differences here and here.

Glad you're enjoying it. It's such a fantastic and relatively unknown deck. The Hangedman is my favourite version of this card, as there's no room for 'different perspective' type interpretations. The hands tied behind the back add an extra emphasis too.

 

On 3/6/2025 at 4:26 AM, katrinka said:

Currently the Siciliano is only published by Modiano. I wish Dal Negro would do a version, their stock is to die for. But the Modiano stock is still good and sturdy, a bit stiff at first but a few minutes of riffling and bridging breaks it in nicely. And I love the backs, they bear the wonderful trinacria.

Dal Negro would certainly make a nice deck, Modiano make a good deck, but it's just not quite the same. 

 

Do you see it becoming a regular in your practice?

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, akiva said:

Glad you're enjoying it. It's such a fantastic and relatively unknown deck. The Hangedman is my favourite version of this card, as there's no room for 'different perspective' type interpretations. The hands tied behind the back add an extra emphasis too.

Yes, and there's no mistaking what it's talking about!
The upside down Hanged Man didn't start out with a halo. (I guess he was altered to fit the correspondences?) He's a http://pittura infamante and there's nothing admirable about him. Think Mussolini. 😉
Under no circumstances can the Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man be sugarcoated into "enlightenment." We can pity him, but not admire him or see him as something to aspire to.
 

1 hour ago, akiva said:

Do you see it becoming a regular in your practice?

Absolutely. I love the way it reads, it's got that classic cartomantic directness!

[Misterei]

27 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The upside down Hanged Man didn't start out with a halo...
Under no circumstances can the Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man be sugarcoated into "enlightenment."

Hanged Man is one of those cards that really changed. In the 1400s - 1500s they actually hung betrayers or oath breakers by the leg in the public square or whatnot. It was literally a card illustrating the punishment for betrayal. Some later decks added bags of silver a la Judas Iscariot. Which kinda messes with historical accuracy but proves the point about betrayal.

When reading a Tarocchi or TdM, I read it similar to your unambiguous Tarocco Siciliano. Its about betrayal or a broken promise.

[JoyousGirl]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Under no circumstances can the Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man be sugarcoated into "enlightenment."

 

You don't think the person in the noose would have come to the realisation that either / or:

 

(a) his actions had actually culminated in what was previously only a threat or possibility that his ego could heretofore evade - until the reality of him actually being caught (whether innocent or not, leading to the following)?  

 

(b) that humans when in groups or mobs and gang up on others are a vicious species that cannot be trusted (of course they don't have to be in groups, they can silently slash you individually and psychologically)?

 

(c) That "Death is not the end" this could be a realisation or enlightenment - including in Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds terms?

 

Just a bit of nuance to the cut and dry.

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, Misterei said:

When reading a Tarocchi or TdM, I read it similar to your unambiguous Tarocco Siciliano. Its about betrayal or a broken promise.

TdM can certainly be read that way. That guy is a fink, by my lights.

But that's not what's happening in the Siciliano. There's a guy hanging, no clue as to why. And it doesn't matter - it's a card of helplessness. People strung him up and he couldn't do anything to stop that. His hands are literally tied.

Stagnation is another interpretation, but that can apply to TdM, RWS, etc. Something is stuck.
 

2 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

You don't think the person in the noose would have come to the realisation that either / or:

 

(a) his actions had actually culminated in what was previously only a threat or possibility that his ego could heretofore evade - until the reality of him actually being caught (whether innocent or not, leading to the following)?  

 

(b) that humans when in groups or mobs and gang up on others are a vicious species that cannot be trusted (of course they don't have to be in groups, they can silently slash you individually and psychologically)?

Those are realizations, yes, but I was referring to what I suppose could be called "capital E Enlightenment". Like the Buddha. 
Realizing that the chickens have finally come home to roost, or that Homo sapiens are essentially weaponized apes isn't enough to make Thangka artists, or even PCS, depict us with a halo.

 

2 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

(c) That "Death is not the end" this could be a realisation or enlightenment - including in Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds terms?

In Nick Cave terms, "Death Is Not The End" promises nothing. Of course life goes on: someone dies and the world doesn't stop, it goes on like nothing happened. There's still life. But that person's life? We don't know. Maybe. I like to think there's something. We all do. There's people I'd like to see again. Animals, too. Or maybe just go somewhere and be all one with them. Undifferentiated consciousness.

Everybody thinks about these things, but again, we just don't know. There's a difference between believing and knowing. That's why religions are called faiths. Cave himself said "I think doubt is an essential part of belief."

We do have this verse:

For the tree of life is growing
Where the spirit never dies
And the bright light of salvation shines
In dark and empty skies

But that could be no more than a comforting thought. Like when the old hobo is going off to die in The Big Rock Candy Mountain and he describes a place with rivers of whisky, lakes of stew, and cigarettes growing on trees. "All the cops have wooden legs," etc.

We all tell ourselves things that may or may not be true in order to feel better. Cave knows that. He's been through hell more than a time or two. He's used the available coping mechanisms. And he's a poet, his songs have facets and levels.

The Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man is still cut and dried. People ganged up on him, tied his hands, put a noose around his neck and hoisted him up for whatever real or imagined reason. He couldn't do anything to stop that. Maybe he told himself that he was going to a better world, maybe he had hope of that, but that's not enlightenment.

Edited March 10 by katrinka

[katrinka]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

We do have this verse:

For the tree of life is growing
Where the spirit never dies
And the bright light of salvation shines
In dark and empty skies

 

It just occurred to me that this could be sung to the tune of The Big Rock Candy Mountain. 
Make of that what you will. I should probably go to bed. 🤣

[akiva]

21 hours ago, katrinka said:

The upside down Hanged Man didn't start out with a halo. (I guess he was altered to fit the correspondences?) He's a http://pittura infamante and there's nothing admirable about him. Think Mussolini. 😉

This is my biggest peeve about this card. The modern meanings are so far removed from the original idea. 

 

21 hours ago, katrinka said:

Under no circumstances can the Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man be sugarcoated into "enlightenment." We can pity him, but not admire him or see him as something to aspire to.

Exactly how it should be imo. There's already nice cards. Someone hanging from their ankle/neck is not it. I think because of it's clear cut image it's one of my favourite Hanged Man cards, that and the one in Rare Triumphs... 😆

 

20 hours ago, Misterei said:

Hanged Man is one of those cards that really changed. In the 1400s - 1500s they actually hung betrayers or oath breakers by the leg in the public square or whatnot. It was literally a card illustrating the punishment for betrayal.

Didn't they also do it when people went bankrupt/got in debt? What a time it was to be alive back then! 😅

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, akiva said:

This is my biggest peeve about this card. The modern meanings are so far removed from the original idea. 

Yes. I guess they had to forcefit it to their correspondences or what-have-you. Then came the hypercapitalist notion that they could sell everybody decks and books and they turned the deck into a fat neutered friendly housecat, made it less "scary": "Anybody can read the Tarot!" "Death is just transformation!" etc. It all becomes useless.
 

 

3 hours ago, akiva said:

Exactly how it should be imo. There's already nice cards. Someone hanging from their ankle/neck is not it. I think because of it's clear cut image it's one of my favourite Hanged Man cards, that and the one in Rare Triumphs... 😆

 

Ian says the Rare Triumphs is taken from a number of old decks. I've yet to find an antique version of his XII. I'm sure it exists, though. I wonder if it inspired Dudley Do-Right?

 

Actually riding backwards is tricky. I tried it when I was a kid and only managed to go at a walk, and even then I was twisting around trying to be sure the horse wasn't heading for a low branch to knock me off. I'd suggest leaving the faster gaits to braver souls with good insurance, like rodeo clowns.

But to get to the point, YES. In the push to sell decks and books to people who are scared of their own shadow, they've made Tarot into that "friend" who will stay silent and let you walk into an open sewer hole.
 

3 hours ago, akiva said:

Didn't they also do it when people went bankrupt/got in debt? What a time it was to be alive back then! 😅

Debtor's prison, too! Woot!
We're heading back to those times. Epidemics of preventable diseases, theocracies, all that good old-fashioned fun. I'm sure criminalizing poverty even more than they do now will make a comeback.

Edited March 10 by katrinka

[Chariot]

On 3/10/2025 at 12:46 AM, katrinka said:

The Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man is still cut and dried. People ganged up on him, tied his hands, put a noose around his neck and hoisted him up for whatever real or imagined reason. He couldn't do anything to stop that. Maybe he told himself that he was going to a better world, maybe he had hope of that, but that's not enlightenment.

How interesting!  I had not seen this Tarocco Siciliano Hanged Man card before, but it's made me do some thinking.  And I agree with  you. This is about getting stitched up and eliminated by others.  It's not suicide; his hands have been tied behind him.  And he will certainly be dead; there isn't even a hint of rebirth here.  Whether he deserved it or not, this person has been deliberately executed by other human beings.  He does not win in this scenario.  While it probably doesn't mean a literal death to the querent or somebody else during a reading, it does mean his prospects have been well and truly killed off by other people.  Time to give up and move on—and maybe steer clear of such scenarios and people in the future? 

I'd be interested to compare it with the RWS 10 of Swords. I think there is more similarity between those two cards than maybe this version of the Hanged Man and the RWS Hanged Man.  I would be interested to discuss the differences ...other than the Major/Minor split.  There are connections to the RWS 5 of Swords as well.  

I wouldn't mind this Tarocco Siciliano's Hanged Man's grim image being incorporated into tarot decks at all—as another, extra card in the Major Arcana.  BUT I would really miss the RWS-inspired Hanged Man!

For me, the RWS Hanged Man card upright always indicates a 'new perspective.'  The person didn't string himself up—again, the hands have been tied behind him—but he is obviously not suffering much either (other than not being able to get down by himself.) He is being forced by his circumstances to look at the world from a different perspective.  (Interesting to learn from @Misterei's post regarding the original one-footed image being about survivable punishment for certain crimes.  I think the modern reader wants a bit more sometimes, but good to know the origin of this image.)

Your man hanging by one tied foot can't do anything about his circumstances just now BUT look, and await developments. Flailing around will get him nowhere but agitated—and possibly provide amusement for onlookers.  But if he stops struggling and opens his eyes, when he does eventually get freed he will be aware of another way of looking at things.  From the illustration on the card and his exalted expression, it seems as if he's not only accepting his stasis just now, but is learning from it.  (Reversed, I would read the card as NEEDING a new perspective, and a need to just be still and accept the stasis that has been forced on you.)  

I don't think any other card quite gives this take on 'enlightenment' and I would miss it, if it were not there. That notion is definitely NOT present in the older Hanged Man image.  That fellow is well and truly dead. RIP.

Edited March 13 by Chariot

[katrinka]

On 3/13/2025 at 5:39 AM, Chariot said:

While it probably doesn't mean a literal death to the querent or somebody else during a reading, it does mean his prospects have been well and truly killed off by other people.  Time to give up and move on—and maybe steer clear of such scenarios and people in the future? 

Yes, exactly. There's no use wasting time and effort on whatever it's referring to. Time to cut one's losses and move on.
 

On 3/13/2025 at 5:39 AM, Chariot said:

I'd be interested to compare it with the RWS 10 of Swords. I think there is more similarity between those two cards than maybe this version of the Hanged Man and the RWS Hanged Man.

Yes, those are very similar. Of course some will try to paint the RWS 10 of Swords in an optimistic light, citing the rising sun in the background. But we don't know if that's the eastern sky or the western. It could just as easily be a setting sun.

The Siciliano offers no such ambiguities.
 

On 3/13/2025 at 5:39 AM, Chariot said:

For me, the RWS Hanged Man card upright always indicates a 'new perspective.'  The person didn't string himself up—again, the hands have been tied behind him—but he is obviously not suffering much either (other than not being able to get down by himself.)

The circulation to that foot is probably impeded. Of course having your foot fall asleep and a rope digging into your ankle is nothing compared to being hung by the neck. I'd find it very bothersome, though!

The RWS Hanged Man has risen above all that. He's like the protagonist in this old TV movie about a pacifist who gets drafted.* You can guess that he was always getting in trouble in boot camp. One time he was getting punished by having to hold his arms straight out sideways holding two full buckets of water. But he was really good at meditation and in his mind he was making out with his girlfriend. He could transcend anything they did to him, no punishment bothered him. He taught the other recruits to do this. They could no longer be controlled or trained to kill. It's all really farfetched but it's pure RWS Hanged Man. Whatever he did, the punishment isn't working. 🤣

When you look at TdM, it's not like that at all in spite of the similarities. There's no halo. It's a pittura infamante. The guy might live to tell the tale, or he might not, they might leave him there or do something else to him - he's hated. But he can't rise above it.

The Sicilian Hanged Man has one thing going in his favor: a quick death.

*ETA: I found the movie for anyone who wants to see it, or just old folks who are feeling a bit nostalgic. ☺️

https://youtu.be/B3AEYC_KPBU?si=QjEuLu-Dz8oEHSl-
 

Edited Tuesday at 08:53 PM by katrinka

[Chariot]

37 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The RWS Hanged Man has risen above all that. He's like the protagonist in this old TV movie about a pacifist who gets drafted. You can guess that he was always getting in trouble in boot camp. One time he was getting punished by having to hold his arms straight out sideways holding two full buckets of water. But he was really good at meditation and in his mind he was making out with his girlfriend. He could transcend anything they did to him, no punishment bothered him. He taught the other recruits to do this. They could no longer be controlled or trained to kill. It's all really farfetched but it's pure RWS Hanged Man. Whatever he did, the punishment isn't working. 🤣
 

Love it!  Ha ha.  Yeah, that look of nauseous fulfilment on his face—and the halo.  If I was wanting him to suffer I'd be really cheesed off. 🙂
 

I liked what you said about the 'sunrise' in the 10 of Swords as well.  That so-called sunrise Pamela Coleman-Smith depicted doesn't seem all that comforting.  Mind you, I've seen decks where the sunrise just isn't there at all.  I usually read the 10 of Swords upright as 'the worst has happened.'  It's the nadir of the experience. So I suppose the fact that it won't get any worse can be sorta sunrise-y.  I do read reversals, and the reversed 10 of Swords is the one I don't like to get ...it means there is worse yet to come.  Urkkk....

[gregory]

On 3/10/2025 at 7:08 PM, katrinka said:

Ian says the Rare Triumphs is taken from a number of old decks. I've yet to find an antique version of his XII.

 

Ask him. He always answers emails.

[katrinka]

I don't have an email addy for him.
I suppose I could message him on Etsy, but I feel kind of awkward doing that since I'm not purchasing anything at present.

[Rose Lalonde]

On 3/10/2025 at 3:08 PM, katrinka said:

Ian says the Rare Triumphs is taken from a number of old decks. I've yet to find an antique version of his XII. I'm sure it exists, though. I wonder if it inspired Dudley Do-Right?

It reminds me of Nasreddin Hodja, a 'wise fool' of Muslim stories from the Middle Ages (but I don't know of a deck that includes him).

 

  

 

 

Edited March 13 by Rose Lalonde

[gregory]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I don't have an email addy for him.
I suppose I could message him on Etsy, but I feel kind of awkward doing that since I'm not purchasing anything at present.

 

OK I will - but not right now ! (We have actually met.)

[akiva]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I suppose I could message him on Etsy, but I feel kind of awkward doing that since I'm not purchasing anything at present.

I already did a couple of years back. 😆 I messaged to ask if the Downfall card was a reference to Nasreddin and this was his reply:

 

"Yes the image on the downfall card is not from any tarot in fact. The hanged man image is very conserved, and if I remember right, only Mitelli did anything significantly different that I know of (and to some extent the Sicilian tarot as well). In drawing the downfall card that way, I was basing my thoughts on the idea of how the image of the hanged man was used outside tarot around the time that the first tarot cards were drawn. And on the idea that in Italy this image was used as a so-called Pittura Infamante, a kind of painting that was used to humiliate, especially powerful men, and bring about a fall from favour or a disgrace. So the man riding backwards on a donkey is a different example of that kind of picture.

 

Yes you are right that Nasreddin is often pictured in this exact way riding backwards on a donkey. This would make him look ridiculous, and that at least is common with my idea behind this card. (If I understand well the idea behind this story, that is only half of the idea of this man though, he should look ridiculous but speak sense.)"

 

Back to Tarocco Siciliano, I did find this site a while back. Though now it has to be put through wayback machine to find it. I'm not sure how I feel about it though. They talk about an "ancient glyph" but never actually say what. I presume it's the Golden Chain of Homer but who knows?

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, gregory said:

OK I will - but not right now ! (We have actually met.)

Thanks! But it looks like we've got our answer.
 

8 hours ago, akiva said:

already did a couple of years back. 😆 I messaged to ask if the Downfall card was a reference to Nasreddin and this was his reply:

 

"Yes the image on the downfall card is not from any tarot in fact. The hanged man image is very conserved, and if I remember right, only Mitelli did anything significantly different that I know of (and to some extent the Sicilian tarot as well). In drawing the downfall card that way, I was basing my thoughts on the idea of how the image of the hanged man was used outside tarot around the time that the first tarot cards were drawn. And on the idea that in Italy this image was used as a so-called Pittura Infamante, a kind of painting that was used to humiliate, especially powerful men, and bring about a fall from favour or a disgrace. So the man riding backwards on a donkey is a different example of that kind of picture.

 

Yes you are right that Nasreddin is often pictured in this exact way riding backwards on a donkey. This would make him look ridiculous, and that at least is common with my idea behind this card. (If I understand well the idea behind this story, that is only half of the idea of this man though, he should look ridiculous but speak sense.)"

 

Back to Tarocco Siciliano, I did find this site a while back. Though now it has to be put through wayback machine to find it. I'm not sure how I feel about it though. They talk about an "ancient glyph" but never actually say what. I presume it's the Golden Chain of Homer but who knows?

From the link:

"During my study I accidentally came across the Sicilian deck, which does not find application if transposed as such to the tree of life. Furthermore, the deck that served me had to respond to a different form and a different cabala that I do not know whether to define as forgotten or never attempted. Correspondence that exists in the Sicilian Tarot, and not in the R-W one. This led me to conjecture that within this deck, and cradled by the island pride, an ancient and initiatory knowledge has survived to us, not belonging to the Egyptian schools as stated by tradition, but to the Hellenic ones."

LOL. I'm more inclined to agree with what MQS blogged just yesterday re: TdM: "...a cheap gaming deck, which, like all tarot decks, is as good for divination as it is for playing at the local inn." It's not Thoth, there's no "different cabala" or "initiatory knowledge." Not all Tarots are occult Tarots. I think this one was made for drinking guys under the table and winning their money, if you (literally) play your cards right. 🤣

It's a fun link, though.

Edited March 14 by katrinka

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

t reminds me of Nasreddin Hodja, a 'wise fool' of Muslim stories from the Middle Ages (but I don't know of a deck that includes him).

 

  

 

I really like him. He's a reminder not to get all sanctimonious! Kind of a "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha" figure, but more humorous.

[gregory]

Ian just pointed out that everything he has to say has been said by others here since I said I'd ask him ! So....

 

I hope everyone here has read Idries Shah's collections of Nasruddin stories. Wonderful stuff.

 

 

[akiva]

On 3/14/2025 at 7:17 AM, katrinka said:

I really like him. He's a reminder not to get all sanctimonious! Kind of a "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha" figure, but more humorous.

His stories are really worth reading 😁

 

On 3/14/2025 at 8:58 AM, gregory said:

I hope everyone here has read Idries Shah's collections of Nasruddin stories. Wonderful stuff.

I'm guessing that's this book? For £2.78 you can't go wrong 

 

If anyone wants a quick look at Nasreddin/Nasruddin this site has some of the more famous stories

[gregory]

That's the one - and there are a couple of others. BRILLIANT stuff.

[katrinka]

On 3/13/2025 at 2:42 PM, Chariot said:

Yeah, that look of nauseous fulfilment on his face—and the halo.  If I was wanting him to suffer I'd be really cheesed off. 🙂

Oh good lord, I see it.
It never bothered me before. I got my first RWS during Bowie's Hunky Dory phase. The RWS Hanged man has ALWAYS just looked like a pre-Ziggy David Bowie to me.
I didn't drag that into my readings. It's just the way the guy's face looked then. I guess it was the bone structure.
But now he looks vacuous and not Bowie-like at all!