fire cat pickles Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) First, to define a Tarot de Marseille deck... http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards43.htm "The pattern named after the city of Marseille (southern France) is the most well-known in the world, up to the point of being often considered 'the mother of all tarots', the classic version of this kind of deck. Indeed, it was not the earliest one to be created, and it would be more correct to think of it as the most popular and long-lasting pattern among the several varieties that flourished from the second half of the 15th century to present, some of which did not last very long, or were confined to more restricted geographic areas. The same name 'Tarot of Marseille' was only adopted in the 1930's, when the French manufacturer Grimaud gave this historical definition to the company's own edition of the pattern; in fact, this was originally referred to as the 'Italian Tarot', also to distinguish it from the French-suited version used for the national game of Tarot." To set a limit, and I would love to see them included (as firecatpickles aka 'theminchiman'), let's preclude Minchiate decks; though arguably Minchiate could be construed as the original "Italian Tarot [ibid.]". A rubric may help, although you do not have to use this. (Four points to Gryffindor!) Historical accuracy (1-4 pts.) Is the deck consistent with the historical pattern of a traditional TdM? Are there any additions or subtractions? Is it a reproduction (fewer points) or a facsimile (more points)? Artistic endeavor (1-4 pts.) If a reproduction, how far did the artist go to make it her or his own? Is it simply a photocopy of the original (fewer points)? Or is it a reworking or unique recoloring of a facsimile (more points)? Collectible value (1-4 pts.) How valuable is the deck? Does it have more than just sentimental value? Usability (1-4 pts.) What is the cardstock like? How does the deck shuffle? Is it ergonomic or does it stab your fingers? For a total of 4 to 16 points... The purpose of this topic is to allow you to decide what would be the best and most apt historical deck for you to study and use. It is not intended as a discussion for what is the best deck for someone else; or what is or is not a "true" TdM; as some parameters have been set above in the introduction. Thanks for playing! Edited August 10, 2019 by fire cat pickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 For me it was close between the Noblet and the Tarot de Flamand aka the Bacchus Tarot. The Noblet got 4 points in Historical accuracy, 4 in Artistic endeavor, 4 in Collectible value, but a 2 in Usability. (Sorry but the deck is hard to riffle shuffle and it stabs my fingers! And the cards a bit small.) A total of 14. The Bacchus Tarot got 4 in Historical, 3 in Artistic (It's *only a facsimile deck), 4 in Collectible, and 4 in Usability, for a total of 15. The Bacchus gets major bonus points because of the quality of the cardstock. I really have no other deck like this one. If you have one, you know what I'm talking about. It's like shuffling air. There is no other way to explain it. Also, the images on the cards are like no other TdM: https://pyroskin.com/catalog/?SECTION_ID=128&ELEMENT_ID=682 It's readable just like any other TdM deck. The only card that is different is the Fifth Trump, replaced with the Bacchus card. This is a plus in my book, as I am not too keen on "Le Pape" card, anyway. I can't recommend this deck highly enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturn Celeste Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 For me it was close between the Noblet and the Tarot de Flamand aka the Bacchus Tarot. Also, the images on the cards are like no other TdM: https://pyroskin.com/catalog/?SECTION_ID=128&ELEMENT_ID=682 It would take me days trying to figure out that Devil card! Very interesting! I learned how to read tarot with the 1JJ Swiss tarot but now I tend to use the Camoin-Jodorowsky deck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Squee Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Thank you, firecatpickes. I love your rubric! I love the idea of having a scientific method for gauging how I feel about a deck. Off the top of my head, if I had to pack two TdM's right this moment to take along to a desert island, they would be an old Grimaud with basket-weave back and the CBD. It will be interesting to see what shakes out after I put them all to the test. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxen Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Very interesting way to categorise the decks. I can see that some of my decks would score highly on many factors but they are not necessarily the ones I read most with. I’ve got so many it will take me some time to go through them all but it will be a fascinating exercise. I do love the Noblet even though it stabs my fingers! I’m thinking of purchasing an extra copy and rounding the corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 FCP, what a fantastic idea! I too share a love of both the Flamand and Noblet decks. My current crush, however, is the Vieville republished by Editions SIVILIXI, so let's have the French boys go toe to toe! Let's score the Noblet first: For Historical accuracy I gave the Flornoy Noblet a 3, because his deck is a redrawing of the original and while it stands as a gorgoeus and essentially faithful reproduction, some personal choices were necessarily made regarding hard to see line work, possible deterioration of the original woodblocks, incorrect colors etc. Five cards in the swords suit are the artist's own work. Don't get me wrong, this is my number one and I love it dearly, but it's a 3. For artistic endeavor, I'll say 4. This is a painstakingly gorgeous deck that obviously took much blood, sweat & tears. Additionally, I've started reading Flornoy's freshly translated companion book which is a feat in itself. Collectability: 4. Self published, limited runs. Usability: 4. The deck is small in my hands, and doesn't poke me any longer! Total: 15! And the Vieville: Historical Accuracy: 4. This is a straight facsimile. Artistic endeavor: 4. Argue with me here, but Patrick Coq resisted the temtation to correct ANYTHING here, including wonky margins and goes to great length in his book to explain why. Props, monsieur. Collectibility: 4. Same as Noblet- limited runs, self published. Usability: 3 for me. It's large in my hands and pokes me to heck. but it reads like a dream otherwise. Standout cards that are fun to read with are the reversed pendu and crazy devil (same in Flamand deck), a statuesque temperance, and odd takes on the heavenly body cards. Total: 15! Zut alors a tie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 Mon Dieu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric13 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 I have several Camoin-Jodorowsky decks which has become my go too deck. It's very detailed, full of all the colors they should have, large size that slide well in the fingers and feel good. Grimaud over the years really dumber their decks down by cutting details and simplifying the colors to save money. I dont have any of the re-issue type decks yet. Most to me are too original and the faces on some of the cards and even colors kind of freak me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tag Jorrit Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I dont have any of the re-issue type decks yet. Most to me are too original and the faces on some of the cards and even colors kind of freak me out. Hey, those are the antique decks' main attractions. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabelle Posted May 15, 2019 Share Posted May 15, 2019 I work mainly with the Jean Noblet TdM since that's what we are encouraged to use in Camelia Elias's tarot courses. But I have a soft spot for the colorful and unassuming Fournier TdM as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsoth Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 I have 2 favorite Tarot de Marseille, which are NEW designs, and not facsimile editions. The first is the Tarot of Marseille by Kevin Meunier (Based on Conver), released in 2014, and 2017 (corrected edition). The design is great, the only thing that bugs me is the beige background. His two books (in French) are absolutely a must if you can read French. The other is the Tarot of Marseille by Yoav Ben-Dov (also based on Conver), released in 2011. Another one that need to be mentioned is the Tarot of Marseille - Millennium Edition by Wilfried Houdouin, released in 2011 (22 cards), and then in 2017 (78 cards). I unfortunately only own the 22-Major Cards edition, but he then re-released the deck in its full 78-cards decks. All the cards have been redesigned using sacred geometry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) Tarot of Marseille by Yoav Ben-Dov (also based on Conver, also therefore called CBD) by US games systems inc 2017. 4+4+1+4=13 Katie Edited July 29, 2019 by Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 On 2/28/2019 at 4:09 PM, fire cat pickles said: To set a limit, and I would love to see them included (as firecatpickles aka 'theminchiman'), let's preclude Minchiate decks; though arguably Minchiate could be construed as the original "Italian Tarot [ibid.]". Hello, readers I realise that the present thread was initiated months ago, but I have only just read the aforesaid quote and since the present thread is still active, I would like to state, for the sake of accuracy and contrary to what appears to be the assertion of the author of the applicable source material, that since there are older pattern sheets, such as the Tarocco Bolognese, one could not accurately regard the Minchiate patterns as being the original Italian Tarot. Regards KevinM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, KevinM said: Hello, readers I realise that the present thread was initiated months ago, but I have only just read the aforesaid quote and since the present thread is still active, I would like to state, for the sake of accuracy and contrary to what appears to be the assertion of the author of the applicable source material, that since there are older pattern sheets, such as the Tarocco Bolognese, one could not accurately regard the Minchiate patterns as being the original Italian Tarot. Regards KevinM If you bother to read the material at all, you would see it's not Andy's assertion at all but Grimaud who initially referred to the Minchiate as the Italian Tarot as a marketing gimmick. The word Minchiate in this context (as a game, that is) first surfaces in 1466. Tarocco Bolognese is a pattern from the mid-18th century. So, yeah, not sure if Grimaud is completely off-base. Edited July 29, 2019 by fire cat pickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said: If you bother to read the material at all, you would see it's not Andy's assertion at all but Grimaud who initially referred to the Minchiate as the Italian Tarot as a marketing gimmick. The word Minchiate in this context (as a game, that is) first surfaces in 1466. Tarocco Bolognese is a pattern from the mid-18th century. So, yeah, not sure if Grimaud is completely off-base. Hello, fire cat pickles I have not read the material to which you refer, but I do not need to read the said material in order to comment on the quotation on which I comment. In addition, I do not state that Andy is the author of the applicable quotation. The dates that you provide do not correspond to the research that The International Playing Card Society provide on their website. One the earlier Minchiate pattern sheet, the said society note the following: "... This pattern was originally classified as IPT-1. This pattern is found on the earliest known Minchiate cards, dating from the 17th century, ...This type of pack originated in Florence in the first half of the 16th century, by 1540 at the latest. ..." On the Tarocco Bolognese pattern sheet, the said society note the following: "... This pattern is probably the oldest still in use, and has the most undeviating history. Its use has always been confined to Bologna and its immediate environs. Two sheets from the same pack, one in the Rothschild Collection at the Louvre and one in the École des Beaux Arts in Paris, show it in existence at the end of the 15th century: the only card on these sheets whose design was later changed is the Devil. The pack was the first Tarot pack to go double-headed (in the second half of the 18th century), and the last to introduce numerals for the trumps, which it did at about the same time. ..." Regards KevinM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 59 minutes ago, KevinM said: I have not read the material to which you refer, but I do not need to read the said material in order to comment on the quotation on which I comment. By all means search the internet for suitable material that fits your agenda, then. I cannot have a rational discussion with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barleywine Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 I'm not a Tarot de Marseille purist (if I were, I'd have several of Yves' facsimiles now that he has stopped torturing us with perfectly pointy corners). I own only a few TdM decks, and the one I use the most is the Conver Ben-Dov (aka CBD). As far as scoring, I would give it a 2 for historicity (he tweaked some of the line art); 4 for artistry (it's very crisp); 1 for collectability (I have the USG reissue, not the original) and 3 for usability (some have complained that the USG card-stock is inferior, but I find it OK). I do have a fondness for recolored decks; I like Kris Hadar's Le Veritable Tarot de Marseille and the Fournier TdM, although I won't rate them. But for handling I still prefer my wife's old Tarot Classic. It has a waxy/buttery feel to it that shuffles like a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturn Celeste Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 L@KevinM if you wish to discuss the patterns further, please start your own discussion thread. There is no need for arguing on this one. 😉 @fire cat pickles please refrain from an attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tag Jorrit Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 (edited) While I appreciate the efforts put into the redrawn versions of the original woodcut, had colored TDMs, I really like the repros of the originals. Even if they're cleaned up a bit. I really like the (restored) Vandenborre/ Flemand/ Flemish/ Baccus deck best because it's so irreverent tho readable. Edited July 29, 2019 by tag Jorrit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookshop Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 My favorite TdM deck so far is a tossup between the Tarot Noir and the Trionfi Della Luna, because i just really like them both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D76 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 What is that ?! 25 of August 2019 : https://www.amazon.de/Tarot-Marseille-1760-Limited/dp/8865275758/ref=sr_1_14?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=Marseille+tarot&qid=1565190438&s=gateway&sr=8-14 8 of Febraury 2020 : https://www.amazon.de/Tarot-Marseille-Antiqua-Lo-Scarabeo/dp/073876468X/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvp?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=Marseille+tarot&pd_rd_i=073876468X&pd_rd_r=b9b1237b-953b-4c10-ac62-5c1768be75ec&pd_rd_w=sOl3c&pd_rd_wg=XvG1l&pf_rd_p=6d84c7ba-ae72-4e53-b9a4-5df18ccb370e&pf_rd_r=CGNAEY4JBP02BHR8EVB8&qid=1565190438&s=gateway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) It looks like an LE to be released August 25th: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46135562-tarot-de-marseille There is a link on this page that takes you to US Amazon. Edited August 7, 2019 by fire cat pickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) The second one is the Anima Antigua Lo Scarabeo, also to be released. Here is the link for US markets: https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Marseille-Antiqua-Lo-Scarabeo/dp/073876468X/ Edited August 7, 2019 by fire cat pickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsoth Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 On 8/7/2019 at 11:23 AM, fire cat pickles said: It looks like an LE to be released August 25th: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46135562-tarot-de-marseille There is a link on this page that takes you to US Amazon. On 8/7/2019 at 11:42 AM, fire cat pickles said: The second one is the Anima Antigua Lo Scarabeo, also to be released. Here is the link for US markets: https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Marseille-Antiqua-Lo-Scarabeo/dp/073876468X/ They are the same deck. It was supposed to be released on August, but it has been postponed to Feb 2020. The deck will be limited to 2999, like the others Anima Antiqua. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire cat pickles Posted August 10, 2019 Author Share Posted August 10, 2019 That's very confusing. Why two different titles? No wonder people think us collectors are crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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