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Study And Discuss Tarot Decanate System


fire cat pickles

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fire cat pickles

The Hebrew is in reference to the 78 Angel names associated with each minor. If you have the Hermetic, the names are each card and in the LWB. Actually, the decans are also on each card, which would make memorization moot. Another good reason to get the Hermetic, IMHO. If you don't have it, get it.

 

I'd like to begin the discussion with those who use the astrological designation (@wind please) and how they work for you. I notice that the Rulerships, Exaltations, Debilities, and Falls may be more pertinent in some circumstances.

 

 

 

Edited by fire cat pickles
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AnomalyTempest

I know nothing at all about this system but I'm game to learn! I haven't really delved beyond the numerological stuff. I've been meaning to learn more about how astrology links in with Tarot.

On 5/29/2019 at 12:53 PM, fire cat pickles said:

I nÔĽŅotice that the Rulerships, Exaltations, Debilities, and Falls may be more pertinent in some circumstances.

I don't even know what this means. ūüėĄ

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fire cat pickles

We know that with the Falls, "planets lose their strength or influence." In this system there are two of them: Jupiter and Venus. These are easy to remember as they are both in the suit of Pentacles. Let's start here.

 

9 of Pentacles

p9s.gif

Venus in Virgo

 

Since Venus is at home in Taurus and Libra; where things of beauty are greatly appreciated and good balance is appreciated and honored; it follows that with this card, these ideals now go out the window. Although 9 of Pentacles is often, perhaps too often, seen as a good card--and contextually it can be one of the more favorable cards in the deck--perhaps the lady in the card isn't as happy as  we make her out to be. After all, we have Venus in Virgo here! Venus is in its Fall. It could indicate too much of a good thing here: Excess.

 

She apparently has everything she wants, at least materially. But is that all there is to life? Remember this is the penultimate card leading up to the 10 of Pentacles, which is arguably the most favorable card in the deck (more on that later). As this leads up to the final Pentacles card, there has to be more. This is not a card of finality. This is a card of longing. As a nine, it can also be a card of loneliness or solitude if we link it to IX. Hermit. Beauty fades.

 

And the beauty of Venus, exalted in the home life of Taurus and carefully balanced in Libra, is lost in Virgo. This is a superficial beauty. All we have left here is glitz and glamour, style over substance. The lady here is vapid and cool. She is the cover of a magazine offering advice without experience. It's a sales pitch. She is all bark and no bite. The warning here, certainly, is that all that glitters is not gold. We wait for the satisfaction of the 10 of Pentacles.

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fire cat pickles

2 of Pentacles

p2s.gif

Jupiter in Capricorn

 

The expansiveness of Jupiter is weakened in Capricorn, but not destroyed completely. Since Capricorn rules the House of Work, this isn't exactly good.

 

This card isn't usually seen as a negative card. Perhaps we should rethink this, as there are negative qualities involved. As the Two separates the auspicious Ace from the expansive Three (the exalted Mars in Capricorn), we get an unstable effect. The character in the RWS reflects this quality as he balances on one foot and struggles to keep the two pentacles balanced inside the luminescate. The backdrop indicates a seachange on the horizon. Pamela Smith, with her theater background, almost certainly did not want us to miss the Melville reference here.  As we strive to affect change in our lives, it is human nature to make changes too quickly, but we must resist and hold the expansive Jupiter energy back in order for success to happen while we make changes in our lives. If not, failure is imminent. This is our white whale.

 

Moderation is key in this circumstance. Once in a hurry, mistakes are bound to happen. The advice with this card is never to be in a hurry, yet have a sense of urgency. 

 

 

Edited by fire cat pickles
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AnomalyTempest
2 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

We know that with the Falls, "planets lose their strength or influence." In this system there are two of them: Jupiter and Venus. These are easy to remember as they are both in the suit of Pentacles. Let's start here.

 

9 of Pentacles

p9s.gif

Venus in Virgo

 

Since Venus is at home in Taurus and Libra; where things of beauty are greatly appreciated and good balance is appreciated and honored; it follows that with this card, these ideals now go out the window. Although 9 of Pentacles is often, perhaps too often, seen as a good card--and contextually it can be one of the more favorable cards in the deck--perhaps the lady in the card isn't as happy as  we make her out to be. After all, we have Venus in Virgo here! Venus is in its Fall. It could indicate too much of a good thing here: Excess.

 

She apparently has everything she wants, at least materially. But is that all there is to life? Remember this is the penultimate card leading up to the 10 of Pentacles, which is arguably the most favorable card in the deck (more on that later). As this leads up to the final Pentacles card, there has to be more. This is not a card of finality. This is a card of longing. As a nine, it can also be a card of loneliness or solitude if we link it to IX. Hermit. Beauty fades.

 

And the beauty of Venus, exalted in the home life of Taurus and carefully balanced in Libra, is lost in Virgo. This is a superficial beauty. All we have left here is glitz and glamour, style over substance. The lady here is vapid and cool. She is the cover of a magazine offering advice without experience. It's a sales pitch. She is all bark and no bite. The warning here, certainly, is that all that glitters is not gold. We wait for the satisfaction of the 10 of Pentacles.

This card for some reason has always had undertones of being trapped in paradise. Not only does the wall keep danger out, she's locked in. She could just as easily be a possession of the Garden's owner as the owner herself. She's looking at that bird as though she wishes she could fly as it does.

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fire cat pickles
1 hour ago, AnomalyTempest said:

ThisÔĽŅÔĽŅ ÔĽŅcard for some reason has always had undertones of being trapped in paradise. Not only does the wall keep danger out, ÔĽŅshe's locked in. She could just as easily be a possession of the Garden's owner as the owner herself. She's looking at that bird asÔĽŅ though sheÔĽŅ ÔĽŅwishesÔĽŅ she ÔĽŅcould fly as it ÔĽŅdoes.

This is very Fall in Virgo!

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Rose Lalonde

Hey, I just saw this. Great thread. I've added a link to this in the Intro to Astrology in the RWS and Thoth thread's post on the decans. Hope that's ok. I think anyone who's over there would be interested in coming over here too. ūüôā

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Moonshadow
On 5/31/2019 at 10:11 AM, AnomalyTempest said:

I know nothing at all about this system but I'm game to learn! I haven't really delved beyond the numerological stuff. I've been meaning to learn more about how astrology links in with Tarot.

I don't even know what this means. ūüėĄ

Thank goodness I'm not the only one ūüėä

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Hi @fire cat pickles What's your take on Mars in Scorpio ruling/influencing 5 of Cups?  Mars in Scorpio is such a powerful placement -- i know from subjective experience that it can be the most concentrated positive energy & willpower, but on the flip-side it can also mean the most demonically destructive energy too.   I'm sure that this method is closely connected to the Qabalah as well as astrology, & 5 of cups would fall in the Sephirah of Geburah (severity) & also the Mundane chakra of Mars which would very much fit into this system.

 

However, this placement would suggest that the meaning of this card is a lot harsher than the stereotype?  I know that this card is connected with mourning which is obviously the Mars/scorpio connection; but would this card to you suggest some kind of revenge after the period of lament?  It seems it would be Scorpio/mars in full wrathful effect. This planetary placement would also suggest self-sabotage, as in he kicked over the cups himself.  

 

I guess the positive side to this card apart from the 2 cups behind him, the bridge & house is that the river is blue & flowing; however, I've notice the river has no banks which means that it could flood the area with stagnate, putrid water (scorpio) & wash the remaining cups away. 

 

It seems a card filled with emotional paralysis, which is in stark contrast to the incredible potential & ability to achieve the impossible which the mars-scorpio dynamic would suggest?   Any thoughts of anyone most welcome.

 

Great thread btw!  And very interesting take on 9 of pentacles/venus in Virgo.  

 

 

 

 

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fire cat pickles
On 6/4/2019 at 9:40 AM, Cookie said:

Hi @fire cat pickles What's your take on Mars in Scorpio ruling/influencing 5 of Cups? 

@Cookie Sorry for the delay here. I've been thinking of a way to respond to your question here. This is very heavy, since it's so new to me, this decanate concept but I'll give it a go.

 

This is one of the images that doesn't seem to fit the Rulership too easily, in my opinion. After all, Mars is in its Rulership in Scorpio. This should be a good thing! Why the negative imagery then? The character looks completely dejected. This card is synonymous in cartomancy with the 5 of hearts or the Hand of Friendship (or so called in some systems), one of the happiest cards in the deck, so it's difficult to reconcile to say the least. And maybe it's not as bad as it seems?

 

If we compare this card's decanate to that of 2 of Wands, Mars also has a Rulership in Aries. Can we make some better sense of 5 of Cups this way? Since the 2 of Wands has Mars in Aries and 5 of Cups has Mars in Scorpio, there are diametrically opposing forces at work. They balance one another out. Mars is a planet of power, and control is handed over to it in the first decan of Aries, a fire sign. In Scorpio, a water sign of course, although Mars is in its Rulership, his power is tempered but not weakened. Power is there but not so easily relinquished. Mars's power is fixed in this sign. Mars' power is there, but it is potential energy.

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Yes, I believe the pioneers of this method considered that finding the equilibrium between opposing forces was the key to understanding; so your explanation would very much sense.   

 

And that's exactly the conclusion I came to, mars power is there but it's dormant, all is in the potential as you say.  

 

I find the system fascinating, and believe opens up a whole new realm into the cards....like the 5/cups we have just discussed is so much more powerful than we could imagine from the regular understanding of the card ... the whole system really deserves study!  It's also made me realize where myths like 9 of Cups being the "wish card"originated, i believe it came from this ancient system as the exalted Jupiter in Pisces 20-30 deg is said to be the "perfect" placement.  It just became exaggerated over the years.    

 

Anyway, thanks for your explanation, your understanding of this system is obviously well beyond the "new concept" which you claim.  

 

Although my understanding of it is still embryonic I'm learning fast, and I look forward to seeing how this thread progresses in the future.!!  

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Rose Lalonde

5 of Cups - first decan of Scorpio, ruled by Mars

 

I like what you said about balance and equilibrium. The 5 of Cups has a lot of fiery Mars:  Mars as the ruler of this decan, and Mars as the ruler of the entire sign of Scorpio, and Mars as the planet assigned to all of the 5s (via Geburah in Qabalah). Classically Mars is described as hot and dry, and I think that tips the balance until there's just too much of it burning away the water from this Cups card.  We end up with "The Lord of Disappointment" from the earlier Golden Dawn deck.


Plus Mars is the planet that corresponds to The Tower, and Scorpio corresponds to Death in the Golden Dawn, RWS and Thoth decks.  (Tabula Mundi, a deck focused on showing the effect of planet and sign via the majors, shows this card with the landscape from the Death card, but now instead of a lake, it's turned into a desert by the fire from the Tower card.)

 

When this card comes up in a positive way, I often think that although it's currently disappointment, there's a ton of aggressive energy here, and if we can tap into it in more helpful ways, we find the willpower needed to reach out for help or to change direction. I like that the RWS has a that bridge in the background, which makes me thing of crossing over and getting past this. 

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fire cat pickles

@Rose Lalonde I really like how you tie in the Majors (Mars-Tower and Scorpio-Death) with this card! Makes total sense.  

 

 

 

Edited by fire cat pickles
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Yes, @Rose Lalonde I think we look to Geburah as the key here. all the 5's are cards of extremism....the mars (hot & dry) burning away water makes real sense, although not totally as mars is assigned to Scorpio (water).   

 

Although I still don't see the dynamic/aggressive energy of Mars/scorpio within the card -- the black cloak & the hidden face suggest sinister, unknown motives ... much more akin to mars/scorp.  It is definitely making more sense now.

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fire cat pickles

5's are also the first decanate in each of the fixed signs. It is a memory aide for me.

 

 

 

 

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I think the importance of the fixed signs to the entire scheme can't be overstated. Their elements are associated with the four "Holy Living Creatures" of the Vision of Ezekiel (the Bull, the Lion, the Eagle [Serpent/Scorpion] and the Man or Angel), and the minor cards of the suit as well as the Ace and Page/Princess ruling the quadrant are all of the same element. The Fives were considered to represent change that was often chaotic and therefore disruptive; perhaps we might see them as "cattle prods" goading the zodiacal creatures into action. Here is a more complete chart prepared by Richard back on AT that captures all of the 78 cards in one image. This is Thoth-based, so the Knights represent Fire of a suit and the Princes are Air.

 

 

GD Decans.JPG

Edited by Barleywine
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AnomalyTempest

After thinking about this Five of Cups association, I can really see the Mars aspect. The figure is all fired up in his disappointment. I would say that it was he who kicked over the cups in a fit of rage. We often do similar things and then get depressed or angry with ourselves (it's all my fault, I deserve this!). The shadow side is just naturally more apparent in this card.

 

That same forceful energy that kicked over the cups in the first place, however, is going to fuel the power we need to right them and make corrections. This card kind of comes at it's positive message through the back door. The figure may be in a place he's not happy with but he is already making the necessary adjustments to move past his disappointments. The picture looks sad at first glance but it's really the first step from despair to triumph. That moment where the spark to keep fighting is born.

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On 5/29/2019 at 7:53 PM, fire cat pickles said:

The Hebrew is in reference to the 78 Angel names associated with each minor. If you have the Hermetic, the names are each card and in the LWB. Actually, the decans are also on each card, which would make memorization moot. Another good reason to get the Hermetic, IMHO. If you don't have it, get it.

 

I'd like to begin the discussion with those who use the astrological designation (@wind please) and how they work for you. I notice that the Rulerships, Exaltations, Debilities, and Falls may be more pertinent in some circumstances.

 

 

 

I have the Hermetic tarot and use it for referencen (astrology, symbolism, Hebrew and angels) for studying. 

 

This week i was studying King of Swords of the Rider Waite and took the card from the Hermetic (Dowson) for astrological reference.

I think there is a general mistake in the Hermetic tarot. The Knights and Kings seem to be switched, don't you think? 

 

The King of Swords is pictured in a Chariot named the Prince of the chariots of the winds (symbols of 10 Capricorn / 20 Aquarius)

The Knight of Swords is pictured on a Horse named Lord of the winds and breezes (symbols of 10 taurus / 20 Gemini) 

The same appears with the kings and knight of cups, wands and pentacles.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

a6ac7313486ec1d06b42b382c12679a5.jpg

f32973f7abf77011116dc755d9f9dff5.jpg

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The Golden Dawn felt that the dominant member of the male court should be shown as supremely active (befitting its correspondence to elemental Fire), so they put him on a horse and renamed him Knight; the King was demoted, still remaining throned after a fashion by being seated in a chariot, which retains the sense of mobility embodied by the old Knight. This was an interim move and they eventually retitled the card "Prince," which Crowley adopted. It seems that Waite returned to the Tarot de Marseille model in his deck. I studied this confusing situation at some length in the past; here's a link to one of my essays:

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2018/02/13/a-king-is-a-king-is-a-knight/

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19 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

The Golden Dawn felt that the dominant member of the male court should be shown as supremely active (befitting its correspondence to elemental Fire), so they put him on a horse and renamed him Knight; the King was demoted, still remaining throned after a fashion by being seated in a chariot, which retains the sense of mobility embodied by the old Knight. This was an interim move and they eventually retitled the card "Prince," which Crowley adopted. It seems that Waite returned to the Tarot de Marseille model in his deck. I studied this confusing situation at some length in the past; here's a link to one of my essays:

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2018/02/13/a-king-is-a-king-is-a-knight/

Thank you so very much!

It is so confusing ; thanks for the link.

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On 5/29/2019 at 8:51 PM, fire cat pickles said:

I've been memorizing the Decan system. Who's in?

 

Come on! It's not that hard ūüôā

 

I made it for my web site some years ago, and seems it went viral.

 

Re Hermetic Tarot, its a great deck, but be aware there are mistakes with the 72 fold names*. Originally there were several (maybe six) mix-ups with several wrong names written on the cards. When I heard U.S. Games were planning to reprint the deck, I quickly sent them corrections. They made most of them, but I think one of them wasn't corrected.

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fire cat pickles
6 hours ago, Uri said:

 

I made it for my web site some years ago, and seems it went viral.

 

Much appreciation for this invaluable resource! How wonderful to have a citation to credit for it. Can you PM me your website so I can update my OP (you don't have permissions as a non-subscriber; I'd be glad to do it.) I hope we have your permission to use it here? There aren't any trademarks associated with it. I'll take it down if you want.

 

I have relied on this more time than I can count.

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