Jump to content

Differences Between Marseilles And Rider Waite Meanings.


Wise_Angel

Recommended Posts

Hello

Do you think that Tarot de Marseille and Rider Waite have different sets of meanings -specially minor arcana-  coming each one from two different schools, French and Anglo-Saxon? IF so, in your opinion what are the main differences between both decks?

 

By the way, I a, also interested in knowing what are the most classical and deep books on Tarot de Marseille, and Rider Waite.

 

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello. :)
I'd like to say first that there are no "schools" - not everyone in France, or any other geographical area, uses the same meanings and methods.
But yes, most read the two somewhat differently.
RWS is a Golden Dawn type deck, with blinds. TdM predates the Dawn, and the Minors are generally (not always) read according to number and suit, similar to playing cards.
People may riff on visual cues, or not.
They may use correspondences, or not.
Etc. There is no cut-and-dried answer to this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Wise_Angel,

 

First off, I think Katrinka's spot on.

 

As for classic Marseille books:

Oswald Wirth's The Tarot of the Magicians

Papus's Divinatory Tarot (I only recently found out this was available in English)

Here's an ongoing translation of Paul Marteau: https://smallcabin.org/le-tarot-de-marseilles-by-paul-marteau/

 

Modern Classics:

Tchalai Unger is very influential in some circles: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t65d8sc7dep98 ... t.pdf?dl=0

The Marseille Tarot Revealed: A Complete Guide to Symbolism, Meanings & Methods by Yoav Ben-Dov (also available under the title 'Tarot – The Open Reading')

The way of Tarot: The Spiritual Teacher in the Cards by Jodorowsky

 

Hope that helps.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nordica De Spell

The RWS does incorporate some of The Marseille, but not the other way around. 

 

(In my opinion, The Marseille is something feeling ”completely different” from the RWS.)

 

The Marseille has a much stronger correlation between the cards, and everytime a card comes up it’s felt in its context within the deck. While you can do that with the RWS, The Marseille has an in-built panoramic feel. (In that way, the pips, which obviously go together with one another, are no different from the majors.)

 

Also, there’s more primordial depth in-built in each card in the Marseille. I feel, that the RWS creators have mimicked The Marseille cards, but have missed the deeper point. (Overriding AND in the place of that, they’ve of course also added their own stuff.)

 

Here, I feel that I should add that I like the RWS, and I like the original RW. The system works, and is easily accessible. It was a great creative endeavour to make and put it out there, and I’m grateful of their work today...

 

The RWS real strength, to me is how adaptable it is. Ten thousand artists do their take, and it just keeps on reading well, and keeps on adding access to ten thousand layers...

 

So, it becomes a question of comparing depth vs width. 

 

(Depending on which perspective you look at it from though, those near and dear and holy numerical measurements might of course be interchangeable...

 

And in conclusion, what if Tarot is just ONE SOLO sneaky animal, from toes to heads and heads to tails...

 

And we keep on staring at it, and caressing estimating with our eyes how perfectly symmetrical it seems, lol.)

 

All of this written here, mwo (my weird opinion only)

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Nordica De Spell said:

 

The Marseille has a much stronger correlation between the cards, and everytime a card comes up it’s felt in its context within the deck. While you can do that with the RWS, The Marseille has an in-built panoramic feel. (In that way, the pips, which obviously go together with one another, are no different from the majors.)

 

 

 

That's a very nice way of expressing it. Thank you so much !!

 

I've noticed that when people read the RWS type deck, that each card tends to be interpreted individually before looking at the big picture. (Correct me please if I'm wrong, but this is what I have noticed.) I think with the Tarot of Marseilles (this is my experience anyway), one tends to see the whole picture first and only then look at the details if this is even necessary. Sometimes the picture that appears like a tapestry is sufficient. 

 

I did a reading for a friend the other day. I pulled five cards. I didn't even read them individually. I just took one look at the cards and told her to get the hell out of her job and find another one double quick.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I have noticed in my experiences in being part of some TdM FB groups is that in terms of meanings and interpretation, there is this general avoidance of things relating to the esoteric (like, elemental associations, Kabbalistic associations, etc). In a way, the interpretations seem closer to those used in playing cards (although with less of the romance part, which seem to comprise a considerable bulk of the playing card meanings sets I have seen). There also seems to be much more variation across meaning sets used for the TdM ( https://www.google.com/search?q=%22marseille%22+%22tarot%22+%22meanings%22&client=firefox-b-d&ei=B7EtXbjDNYOchwP-ioOgCQ&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwj44pmUp7njAhUDzmEKHX7FAJQQ8tMDCJ0B&biw=1280&bih=579 ) probably because its original creator did not leave behind any list of meanings for it (probably because it wasn't originally intended for divination, but that's a contention for another day 😉), as compared to the RWS, for which Waite wrote his book with meanings, these meanings being more or less the basis of other works by a lot of other succeeding authors.

 

-Ly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BlueToy said:

One thing I have noticed in my experiences in being part of some TdM FB groups is that in terms of meanings and interpretation, there is this general avoidance of things relating to the esoteric (like, elemental associations, Kabbalistic associations, etc). In a way, the interpretations seem closer to those used in playing cards (although with less of the romance part, which seem to comprise a considerable bulk of the playing card meanings sets I have seen). There also seems to be much more variation across meaning sets used for the TdM ( https://www.google.com/search?q="marseille"+"tarot"+"meanings"&client=firefox-b-d&ei=B7EtXbjDNYOchwP-ioOgCQ&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwj44pmUp7njAhUDzmEKHX7FAJQQ8tMDCJ0B&biw=1280&bih=579 ) probably because its original creator did not leave behind any list of meanings for it (probably because it wasn't originally intended for divination, but that's a contention for another day 😉), as compared to the RWS, for which Waite wrote his book with meanings, these meanings being more or less the basis of other works by a lot of other succeeding authors.

 

-Ly

When I set out to learn the TdM (which I'm still learning), I resolved to leave my esoteric presumptions at the door and just bring along suit and number theory concepts. I find it interesting that, when I read Waite's "Grand Orient" cartomancy material, it seemed suspiciously like much of his PKT interpretations. But I'm not sure which came first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BlueToy said:

One thing I have noticed in my experiences in being part of some TdM FB groups is that in terms of meanings and interpretation, there is this general avoidance of things relating to the esoteric (like, elemental associations, Kabbalistic associations, etc). In a way, the interpretations seem closer to those used in playing cards (although with less of the romance part, which seem to comprise a considerable bulk of the playing card meanings sets I have seen). T

On the French speaking tarot discussion forms I peruse very occasionally and which, being French, discuss mostly if not exclusively about the TdM, there is definitely esoteric stuff being discussed. Very much part and parcel of the whole business. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Marigold said:

On the French speaking tarot discussion forms I peruse very occasionally and which, being French, discuss mostly if not exclusively about the TdM, there is definitely esoteric stuff being discussed. Very much part and parcel of the whole business. 

 

That's interesting. I'm now wondering if the avoidance of esoteric associations is more of an "English-speaking" TdM thing. Actually, more than esoteric, it's this avoidance of associating it with the Golden Dawn and its derivaties that I notice. It's like, when someone new to the group excitedly mentions, say, RWS meanings, there's this... social media version of people keeping quiet and politely staring into their wine glasses. :D . Again, just my impressions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can understand the need to not want to fit by accident any old habits and meanings onto a new system. When one learns a new system or follows new teachings, it's wise not to mix them up too much in the beginning. Afterwards, when one is comfortable, if one feels there are things which can be crossed over, there's no harm. It's better to first separate, then combine. Like in spagyry.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spagyric

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, BlueToy said:

That's interesting. I'm now wondering if the avoidance of esoteric associations is more of an "English-speaking" TdM thing. Actually, more than esoteric, it's this avoidance of associating it with the Golden Dawn and its derivaties that I notice. It's like, when someone new to the group excitedly mentions, say, RWS meanings, there's this... social media version of people keeping quiet and politely staring into their wine glasses. 😄. Again, just my impressions.

I'm guessing that's because RWS has dominated Anglo cartomancy for decades upon decades, so much so that until fairly recently there was nothing available in english on TdM...or Lenormand, or Sibilla, or anything, really, with the exception of playing card reading. People are probably trying to stake out their territory, and don't want to give an inch lest someone take a mile. 🤣

That, or they're actually unaware that people were using correspondences prior to the GD. A lot of facebook groups aren't very well informed.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I'm not against esoteric associations, but this can easily become too much and authors can be wordy concerning that at the expense of useful meanings and ways to read the cards.

On the other hand, when there is a complete lack of esoteric associations, possibly the deck could become a bit demystified and people can start to bring their own views excessively, distorting the method and meanings. So, probably it's a matter of balance.

For French old authors there was some sort of craze in the past with the Egyptians: we can read ...and the Egyptians used to do this and this etc. :classic_smile:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that no one knows what the ancient Egyptians was used to do, but it's nice for the atmosphere.

Edited by Decan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm wondering how easy it is to put one system aside and read cards with another? E.g. put RWS aside and read TdM. Could one system feed into another, unintentionally?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many people who are attracted to tarot are interested in esoteric matters generally. I think for those people, the obvious Christian iconography of the TdM is a bit of a barrier. Lots of people have turned away from Christianity towards other belief systems and there can be a rejection of the older decks because of this. 

Tarot was conceived in a strong, culturally Christian environment and it’s an important layer of the symbolism in the Trumps. People then were also much more visually literate in a way we aren’t now. The written word has superseded the symbolic/visual and we’ve lost many of those automatic connections. 

A little primer of common symbols in the history of Art can be very useful. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Charlie Brown
39 minutes ago, Flaxen said:

Tarot was conceived in a strong, culturally Christian environment and it’s an important layer of the symbolism in the Trumps. People then were also much more visually literate in a way we aren’t now. The written word has superseded the symbolic/visual and we’ve lost many of those automatic connections. 

A little primer of common symbols in the history of Art can be very useful. 

 

All of this. Yes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's definitely worth remembering that it was the French occult scene that applied Cabbalah, etc. to the tarot long before the GD ever came online. That being said, many of the authors who've had the biggest impact on the Anglo world have tended to pour scorn on these older ideas (often while replacing them with their own baroque pet theories). Here I'm thinking of Jodo, Camoin, Flornoy, Enriquez, Elias, and, maybe to a far lesser extent, Ben-Dov.

 

So, anyway, I think this has lead to many in the Anglo world thinking that TdM is NOT to be read with or through various correspondences.... while many non-Anglo TdMers have always, and continue to, read this way.

 

Maybe we can divide the 'scene' into two camps: Trad. and modern? But I think this is probably a tricky line to draw, with many of the above authors having been, even if in an unacknowledged way, heavily influenced by the work of occultists. (Recent correspondence with a member of this forum has shown me just how hard French occultism is to escape!) 

 

What to do, hey?

 

1 hour ago, Flaxen said:

Many people who are attracted to tarot are interested in esoteric matters generally. I think for those people, the obvious Christian iconography of the TdM is a bit of a barrier. Lots of people have turned away from Christianity towards other belief systems and there can be a rejection of the older decks because of this. 

Tarot was conceived in a strong, culturally Christian environment and it’s an important layer of the symbolism in the Trumps. People then were also much more visually literate in a way we aren’t now. The written word has superseded the symbolic/visual and we’ve lost many of those automatic connections. 

A little primer of common symbols in the history of Art can be very useful. 

Isn't the RWS also saturated in Christian mysticism? Anyway, I get your point on historical literacy, but I also feel this could possibly over complicate things. For example, do you really need to know the ins and outs of heraldry to read the TdM? Personally, I feel we still have enough of a cultural connection to the iconography of the TdM to get by without deep research (not that research is a bad thing). Otherwise, I suppose we're replacing metaphysical occultism with historicist occultism. 🙂

 

EDIT: I think western (and westernised) countries still operate under a heavily Christianised worldview.

 

EDIT: I would like to have included Andy B. in the above list of influential authors, but, I feel, he's criminally underrated, especially when it comes to TdM. *Sigh*

Edited by devin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Flaxen said:

Tarot was conceived in a strong, culturally Christian environment and it’s an important layer of the symbolism in the Trumps.

Egyptian, dammit!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, devin said:

Anyway, I get your point on historical literacy, but I also feel this could possibly over complicate things. For example, do you really need to know the ins and outs of heraldry to read the TdM? Personally, I feel we still have enough of a cultural connection to the iconography of the TdM to get by without deep research (not that research is a bad thing). Otherwise, I suppose we're replacing metaphysical occultism with historicist occultism

Oh absolutely! I wasn’t suggesting that people should only interpret TdM from a medieval or renaissance mindset. That would be a bit like ‘purity politics’ - ‘I’m more authentic than you’. That could also potentially lead to a Reformation-like schism - are we interpreting from a Catholic perspective or Protestant? 😀

I agree that those cultural connections are still part of our psychological and spiritual dna. 

It’s a point of interest to me how the Death card was viewed and what the Pope stood for on a symbolical and political level. It just adds a layer of richness when I read with them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For those of us who are trying to use the TdM in a way for which it was apparently never intended by its unknown creators (that is, for divination), escaping the long arm of esoteric correspondences is something of a "rite of passage." I agree with Caitlin Matthews that the only reliable touchstone we have for the pip cards is suit-and-number theory; everything else seems to be "tweaking." Regarding the trumps, trying to get out from under the looming shadow of Jungian psychology is another challenge (Cherry Gilchrist's Tarot Triumphs was a big help to me there). For the court cards, comparisons to medieval court hierarchies seem unavoidable unless we fall back on what Aleister Crowley called their "moral characteristics."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

fire cat pickles

I am reconsidering the need to have different systems for OTO, RWS and TdM in the first place, to be honest. The older I get, the more it's all just cards to me.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by fire cat pickles
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2019 at 6:38 AM, Marigold said:

I've noticed that when people read the RWS type deck, that each card tends to be interpreted individually before looking at the big picture. (Correct me please if I'm wrong, but this is what I have noticed.) I think with the Tarot of Marseilles (this is my experience anyway), one tends to see the whole picture first and only then look at the details if this is even necessary. Sometimes the picture that appears like a tapestry is sufficient.

 

 

 

Quite a while ago on another forum, someone mentioned that the cards of the TdM often "feed into" one another when they're laid side-by-side (that is, a feature in one may be echoed in the adjacent card(s). This provides a synergistic way to read them in combination. I haven't noticed it to any great extent myself, but I don't doubt it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

I am reconsidering the need to have different systems for OTO, RWS and TdM in the first place, to be honest. The older I get, the more it's all just cards to me.

 

 

 

 

 

"It's all just cards to me." What a great signature line that would be for a forum avatar. I tend to agree that whatever system of interpretation is used, it's our response to it as readers that counts. If we develop a consistent understanding of the cards over time, we should be able to take cosmetic differences in stride. What matters is how we deliver it to our sitters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, devin said:

Isn't the RWS also saturated in Christian mysticism? Anyway, I get your point on historical literacy, but I also feel this could possibly over complicate things. For example, do you really need to know the ins and outs of heraldry to read the TdM? Personally, I feel we still have enough of a cultural connection to the iconography of the TdM to get by without deep research (not that research is a bad thing). Otherwise, I suppose we're replacing metaphysical occultism with historicist occultism. 🙂

 

EDIT: I think western (and westernised) countries still operate under a heavily Christianised worldview.

They do. I like to think of the cards as using Christian imagery to illustrate a concept. I never get the feeling that I'm being evangelicized at/having Christianity pushed on me when I use a TdM or a RWS. I never felt a need to avoid them. It's not about the Pope, resurrection of the dead, etc. - it's about the ideas behind those things. Most of us are familiar with these concepts, it's a good collection of metaphors. (I'm not saying that the first decks were designed with card reading in mind, only that their perennial popularity attests to the fact that the images work well.)

Similarly, couple of years ago, I blogged about a very simple oracle deck made up of images from Cinderella: https://fennario.wordpress.com/2017/01/01/pure-context-practice-the-cinderella-deck/
It's an exceptionally easy deck to use, because most people know the story already. Another good collection of metaphors.

You don't have to be a theologian to understand what the Christian-themed Tarot cards mean, any more than you would have to believe in fairy godmothers to use the Cinderella cards.
But research is always a good thing. Sometimes, it's actually fun.

1 hour ago, devin said:

 

EDIT: I would like to have included Andy B. in the above list of influential authors, but, I feel, he's criminally underrated, especially when it comes to TdM. *Sigh*

He really is. And his instructions are some of the most pragmatic I've found.

He does bring in correspondences, though. Mostly from classical astrology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Connolly Tarot is a good example. Some people object to the winged cherubs floating around in it as excessively Christian. I just find them to be artistic devices and ignore any religious connotations. All of the angelic figures in the RWS deck I just take as expressions of the Higher Mind and don't personify them as specific angels (although Gabriel blowing his trumpet in Judgement is a compelling image).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.