Translations of Keywords Written On Known Historical Tdm Decks

[Raggydoll]

2 hours ago, Decan said:

I think your are right I overthink this while things will remain mysterious.

Otherwise in France someone with a PhD is named a doctor, and Pensiero can refer to philosophy pretty literally (while reversed here). I’m wondering if Paul Marteau was depressive, Morte reversed is a very bad card. Well, it was just an aside around these cards.

Don’t stop speculating because of me! I like this discussion 😀 I was just having fun with the message from the cards ☺️

[Decan]

On the Empress I finally deciphered the word "grossesse" with maybe "l'intuition?", that is "pregnancy" and "intuition?"; for pregnancy it's something sure because we find a combination with the Empress listed on the Moon card, so likely what is erased on card 3 is: "with the Moon: pregnancy"

 

XIIII Temperance

-throughout the card (at the top and midway): combinaison, changement, changement> "combination", "change" (word written twice, likely to insist on it)

Nothing else here, it's clear and easy!

 

XV The Devil

-throughout the card (at the top, midway and lower half): "Amour passionner" (for "amour passionné" I think), "le bouc as d'épée" (likely "le bouc près de l'as d'épée") "maison rendez-vous" (likely for "maison de rendez-vous" ), "lune esprit Mal" (can be for "avec la lune esprit du mal")> "Passion" (for love/animal passion here), "the billy goat/Baphomet (near the) Ace of Swords" (so here the Ace of Swords near the Devil is important to note for a demonic influence, this can refer directly to black magic), "place: a brodhel", "(with the) Moon: evil spirit" (this can likely refer to bad spirits or to an evil intention, we can certainly add evil work and criminality); there is something with the Ace of Swords + the Moon card, it's a combo to note for hidden bad influences I think (we can see that in the Moon card), so if these two cards are near the Devil: Dum Dum Dum!

Otherwise the Ace of Swords + the Moon card near/with the Judgment card: something isn't hidden anymore but become clear/obvious (it's noted on the Judgment card). Clear doesn't mean purified I think, just not hidden anymore; expiation would be more with regard to the Hanged Man (actually I'm wondering if "a confession" through the word "laments" ("speech of torment") isn't indirectly indicated because near the words "expiation" and "cloister" (the context is catholicism). Well...

 

I think that for "pathworking" the card to look at would be the Pope; things are likely very conventional: church/the priest, it is "pathworking", and for some "purification or a confession" you go to the Hanged Man card. It's my interpretation of course here but I thought about this with regard to this combo "Pope + Hanged Man" you was referring to in a post yesterday @Raggydoll

Edited August 8, 2019 by Decan

[Raggydoll]

@Decan I’m glad you got something out of my musings. They represent my own current journey with creating a personal spiritual deck (not marseille and not even tarot, though similar archetypes are at play). But this is very off topic so I’m gonna shut up about it now 😁

[Decan]

Okay the following for the major cards.

 

XVI La Maison Dieu (The Tower)

-Throughout the card (at the top, upper half, midway): "chute, chute", "châtiment, châtiment", "catastrophe", "18 naufrage", "19 feu"> "fall/downfall" (written twice), "punishment" (written twice), "disaster", "(with the Moon, the) 18: werck/shipwerck", "(with the Sun the) 19: fire"

Okay, here things are pretty clear and very bad!

 

XVII The Star

-Throughout the card: "influence"> "influence"

Just one neutral word on this card, so not really helping to understand clearly its effect; the stars were (and are) seen to have an influence on us, maybe it's just that.

 

XVIII The Moon

-Throughout the card (at the top, upper half, midway and lower half): "difficulté", "frayeur", "3 grossesse", "eau, eau", "as d'épée nocturne", "frayeur la nuit" (or "frayeur de la nuit"), "caché", "eau"> "difficulty/trouble", "fear/scare", "(with the Empress the) 3: pregnancy", "water" (water is written 3 times on this card!), "(with the) Ace of Swords: night (terror)", "scare at night", "(what is) hidden"

Here with the Ace of Swords it seems "night fear", but the card in itself seems to have the same meaning, so?

 

XVIIII The Sun

-Throughout the card (at the top, upper half, midway): "jour", "4 hautes destinées", "génie", "dévoilement près de la Lune", "et parfait bonheur", "esprit du bien">

"daylight/daytime", "(with th Emperor, the) 4: great destinies", "genius", "near the Moon: unveiling", "perfect happiness", "spirit of the good"

§ here the opposite of the Sun card would be the Devil with "spirit of the evil"

 

XX Judgment

-Throughout the card (at the top, upper half, midway): "surprise, "éclat", "8 procès", "8 procès", "as d'épée lune éclat, flagrant délit", "bouleversement"> "surprise", the word "éclat" has several meanings in French and is difficult to understand here, I don't thing it is shine or brightness, but more "éclater au grand jour" and so "get revealed/come to light", (with Justice, the) 8: trial" (written twice on the card), "(with the) Ace of Swords (and/or) the Moon: get revealed, flagrante delicto/flagrancy", "in turmoil/disruption"

 

XXI The World

-Throughout the card: "as d'épée association d'intérêts", "4 roi" (and an unreable word)> (with) the Ace of Swords: association of interests", (with the Emperor, the ) 4: King" (there is an other word just next, but unreable)

 

That is guys, the Majors arcana cards are translated!

I won't go further with the minor cards, maybe if I had a stronger connection with the TdM, but it's not the case on my side (while I appreciate it of course, and it is also the standard deck in my country, so).

 

Please feel free to comment what I said, to add your views on this or that and of course to cary on the translations with the minor cards! I didn't want this thread as "my thread", so it isn't!!

🧡

Edited August 9, 2019 by Decan

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Decan said:

XVI La Maison Dieu (The Tower)

-Throughout the card (at the top, upper half, midway): "chute, chute", "châtiment, châtiment", "catastrophe", "18 naufrage", "19 feu"> "fall/downfall" (written twice), "punishment" (written twice), "disaster", "(with the Moon, the) 18: werck/shipwerck", "(with the Sun the) 19: fire"

Okay, here things are pretty clear and very bad!

 

I too assign to The Tower the noun punishment, though perhaps not for the same reasons as he or she who made the aforesaid inscriptions.

 

The illustration that is printed on the corresponding trump card of the Tarot de Paris depicts flames and a hell-mouth (a representation of an entrance to hell in the form of the mouth of a large creature).

 

In the illustration that is printed on the corresponding trump card a version of the later Minhiate pattern that was produced by Solesio of Genoa, the male figure who reaches for the female figure is depicted with horns and hooves, suggesting, among other possibilities, that the applicable tower is a representation of an entrance to hell: https://i-p-c-s.org/pattern/ps-29.html

 

 

Regards

KevinM

Edited August 9, 2019 by Guest

[Decan]

4 hours ago, KevinM said:

I too assign to The Tower the noun punishment, though perhaps not for the same reasons as he or she who made the aforesaid inscriptions.

 

The illustration that is printed on the corresponding trump card of the Tarot de Paris depicts flames and a hell-mouth (a representation of an entrance to hell in the form of the mouth of a large creature).

 

In the illustration that is printed on the corresponding trump card a version of the later Minhiate pattern that was produced by Solesio of Genoa, the male figure who reaches for the female figure is depicted with horns and hooves, suggesting, among other possibilities, that the applicable tower is a representation of an entrance to hell: https://i-p-c-s.org/pattern/ps-29.html

 

 

Regards

KevinM

Interesting. This reminds me a recent spread about Boris Johnson as the first minister of the UK where @Flaxen noted that the Tower could be "a depiction of the harrowing of Hell" (the Tower card came out in that spread).

Well, hoping that he won't open the doors of Hell for his country but just for himself. Of course it would be much better that these doors remain completely closed!!

[Decan]

I just would like to add something concerning the word "maison" that we find on many cards (but not all); actually I'm used to think at the card 16 as the Tower but in the TdM it is the Maison Dieu (i.e. God House), therefore it is possible that the word "maison" (written on this deck) doesn't refer to a place (as I thougth) but to combinations with the Maison Dieu/Tower. It's something to explore, I don't know (?)

 

But if we look at things that way some meanings would be different, for example on Le Mat: "maison fout" (for "avec la Maison Dieu: fou") could say Le Mat + Maison Dieu/Tower: madness, which could make sense.

But "maison église" on the Pope (Jupiter here) would say Pope + Maison Dieu: church (here I don't know because the Maison Dieu is pretty negative while its literal translation is God House, so it could make sense for a church with the Pope card maybe).

For the Hanged Man reversed "maison cloître" would say Hanged Man reversed + Maison Dieu: cloister, maybe too, because of the name of this card that refers to God.

But on the Devil card: "maison rendez-vous"; here I really don't know if it makes sense or no because it would be: the Devil + Maison Dieur: rendez-vous/meeting (a meeting with the Devil or something? LOL).

 

Just thoughts to open possibilities on that, I haven't the answer here, maybe this word refers to a place, or to this card 16 (??). There are as well things to explore with the Ace of Swords, and maybe too with the Star card (I'm not sure if they looked at it as a positive card, actually it's not completely clear for me at this point).

 

ETA: it would be interesting to look at the initial title of the card as a keyword for its meaning maybe; but for the TdM this would say to don't refer to the Maison Dieu as the Tower (which is its title in the RW); the same for card 1, le Bateleur isn't the Magician of the RW, the Papesse isn't exactly the Hight Priestess and the Pope not exactly the Hierophant. Well 2 different decks (with important similarities though)

@KevinM in the Tarot de Paris the card 16 you posted has a different title, that is "La Foudre" (i.e. "lightning"), this could highlight a wrath aspect for this card maybe here, like the wrath of God (while it's as well the general meaning for the Maison Dieu through "punishment and disaster"), well...

Edited August 10, 2019 by Decan

[Raggydoll]

That’s interesting and I think it makes some sense in most of those combinations. I would really like to know whats written on those darn minors! 

[Decan]

11 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

That’s interesting and I think it makes some sense in most of those combinations. I would really like to know whats written on those darn minors! 

It would be good concerning my Hercule Poirot side 🧐 but I'm too lazy lol

Edited August 10, 2019 by Decan

[Raggydoll]

43 minutes ago, Decan said:

It would be good concerning my Hercule Poirot side 🧐 but I'm too lazy lol

I love Hercule too 😁 And I won’t hold your ‘laziness’ against you 💜 Maybe someone else will be able to help out, you have done such an extensive work already and you absolutely deserve an early retirement 😊

[Eric13]

@Decan and @Raggydoll, Concerning The Tower, and God House, I have heard of The Tower and been told in the past that God House does not mean God's House, or tower of Babel. To me, this reference does refer to The Tower as actually representing the human body. Your body is God because its made of divine matter. Maybe something here with the wrath of God concerning The Tower and lightning could represent The Pope interfering with the human body. The Tarot, brining attention in some way to the Churches dominance over people, like they had so many centuries ago. As sell as any influence the Devil may have had on individuals. Just a thought. 

[Decan]

On 8/10/2019 at 1:28 PM, Joe said:

Concerning The Tower, and God House, I have heard of The Tower and been told in the past that God House does not mean God's House

Yes, you are right the literal translation is God House, and not God's House. It's an odd title!

[Marigold]

A Maison Dieu was either a kind of hospice or a place to stay for pilgrims during their journey on their Crusades. No reference whatsoever to a Tower. 

 

Edited to add : As to the "Foudre" (lightning), it is presumed by many that this refers allegorically to the Pentecost : 

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Marigold

[Eric13]

Maybe, just maybe, the original meaning of the Tower was meant to bee about the human soul, or body with the picture of the two bodies falling away could have meant leaving the soul or the soul leaving the body and over the centuries sort of like the Fool or Hanged Man evolving, or maybe being forgotten about, the interpretation of the Tower evolved also. How many people are actually seen in the Majors after the Tower? There is the Star, one woman, and the two figures in the Sun card in some translations aren't really humans, just figures, and they are also androgynous. Same with the woman on the World card. She is also considered the human soul.

Just a thought for discussion given the translations.