Week 2 Jung's Man And His Symbols

[AfternoonTarot]

Hello everyone!  We’re off to a great start.  

 

 

This week we’ll be reading the 2nd Section of Chapter 1, Past and Future in the Unconscious, pp. 32 - 38.

 

As a reminder, feel free to post thoughts as we go through the week.  

 

 

Some Ideas for Discussion: 

 

Your reflections on the reading.  What stood out to you?  What surprised you?  What did you disagree with?  What did you relate to?

 

Anything “quotable?”

 

In what ways does the reading relate to Tarot symbolism and Tarot practice?

 

Share examples of symbols from art, popular culture, cultural artifacts, dreams, etc.

 

Anything else you’d like to discuss.

 

Enjoy the reading!

[AfternoonTarot]

What stood out to me was the idea that the contents of the conscious and unconscious are moving back and forth, having a past and a future, and many factors come into play to determine when they weave a story, memory, or dream.

 

Last week I had a dream in which i was talking to someone and referenced a past action of mine. The odd part is that the action I told them about had occurred in a previous dream, but I didn’t realize I was referencing a previous dream until I woke up (I thought I was conveying a fact). So the unconscious appears to have a past and future of its own aside from the interactions with the conscious present.  It also occurred to me that the unconscious past becomes part of our conscious present and future once brought forward.  Heady stuff (pun intended)!  

 

Has anyone else had something odd happen in the dream context?

 

Re: the two fundamental points of dreams - they are facts that somehow make sense and are a specific expression of the unconscious (p. 32) - I’m wondering how one can pay attention to so much unconscious material (for people that remember many of their dreams)?  Do we even need to? What about people who remember few or no dreams?

[Starlight]

I am just about to start the reading for this section.

 

In relation to strange things in dreams, I once had a dream that got so uncomfortable I realised I was dreaming and told myself to wake up. Which, with a huge amount of effort involved, I did, only to find myself surrounded by figures laughing at me mockingly and I realised I hadn't woken up at all, just ascended to a different level of dreaming.

 

More intense effort exerted and THEN I woke up.

 

Totally weird. 🙂

 

I'll move on to the reading now.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Starlight

[Starlight]

On 8/25/2019 at 9:10 PM, AfternoonTarot said:

Your reflections on the reading.  What stood out to you?  What surprised you?  What did you disagree with?  What did you relate to?

I've just finished this section, and though it seems so simple when Jung mentions it, I'd never before considered things in this way.

 

Our unconscious does not just hold subliminal memories from our pasts - it can also offer up ideas and thoughts we were never consciously aware of or thought before. 

 

"But just as conscious contents can vanish into the unconscious, new contents, which have never yet been conscious, can arise from it."

 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Starlight

[Starlight]

2 hours ago, AfternoonTarot said:

What stood out to me was the idea that the contents of the conscious and unconscious are moving back and forth, having a past and a future, and many factors come into play to determine when they weave a story, memory, or dream.

Can I ask how you came to the idea of conscious and unconscious moving back and forth? (I've been wondering if my version of the book is different from everyone elses's. 🙂 )

 

Jung said that "unconscious contents of the mind behave as if they were conscious and that you can never be sure, in such cases, whether thought, speech or action is conscious or not." But I think he was talking about 'a neurotic person'. Or is that label related to the degree to which one appears less normal than other people??! In which case we're all neurotic to some extent, some more than others! 

 

[AfternoonTarot]

On 8/28/2019 at 6:29 AM, Starlight said:

In relation to strange things in dreams, I once had a dream that got so uncomfortable I realised I was dreaming and told myself to wake up. Which, with a huge amount of effort involved, I did, only to find myself surrounded by figures laughing at me mockingly and I realised I hadn't woken up at all, just ascended to a different level of dreaming.

 

More intense effort exerted and THEN I woke up.

That is an interesting dream!  The fact that your conscious mind (you realized you were dreaming) didn’t obey - for lack of a better word - your desire to wake up.  You remained in the unconscious instead.  And that you remember the intense effort. 

 

On 8/28/2019 at 7:25 AM, Starlight said:

Our unconscious does not just hold subliminal memories from our pasts - it can also offer up ideas and thoughts we were never consciously aware of or thought before. 

 

"But just as conscious contents can vanish into the unconscious, new contents, which have never yet been conscious, can arise from it."

 

 

 

On 8/28/2019 at 7:36 AM, Starlight said:

Can I ask how you came to the idea of conscious and unconscious moving back and forth? (I've been wondering if my version of the book is different from everyone elses's. 🙂 )

Yes...your quote above and some other things he wrote led me to that conclusion.  He doesn’t specifically say “back and forth” but his explanations and examples seem to indicate this.  For example, “...something that slips from our consciousness does not cease to exist...” (p. 32).  So in essence, it has gone back.  Later he describes a memory triggered by a sensory experience as being “brought up” from the unconscious (p.36).  But then he also talks about how “...completely new thoughts and creative ideas can also present themselves from the unconscious...” (pg. 38).  So it seems there are several types of material in the unconscious that can come to consciousness: previously known, subliminal (not consciously noticed at the time but retained nevertheless), and newly created.  Any others I’m missing?

 

The other thing that is interesting to me is how effortless this seems to occur.  I’m wondering if the unconscious is always “ready and willing” to come forward but not always “able.”  

 

All of this ties into the Tarot so beautifully imo.

On 8/28/2019 at 7:36 AM, Starlight said:

 

Jung said that "unconscious contents of the mind behave as if they were conscious and that you can never be sure, in such cases, whether thought, speech or action is conscious or not." But I think he was talking about 'a neurotic person'. Or is that label related to the degree to which one appears less normal than other people??! In which case we're all neurotic to some extent, some more than others! 

 

I think he was, yes.  I found this page to help explain neurosis, which is thought to be on a continuum, so you’re correct in saying we’re all neurotic to some extent.  Or perhaps function neurotically from time to time.  

 

I need to get going for now. Thank you @Starlight for this interesting discussion!

[Esk]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:00 PM, AfternoonTarot said:

Last week I had a dream in which i was talking to someone and referenced a past action of mine. The odd part is that the action I told them about had occurred in a previous dream, but I didn’t realize I was referencing a previous dream until I woke up

I have a very similar experience. I remember mixing 2 different dreams : some memories I had in a dream came in fact from another previous dream. Like you I realised that when I woke up.

Also sometimes during the day I can recall some little parts of dreams that I thought I have completely forgotten' ans sometimes it can even be old dream. They're in fact buried deep down in my unconscious and often I don't know why suddely I remember these parts of dream. 

This kind of things can illustrate well what Jung says in this chapter. And also we experienced that, as he says in the end, conscious and unconscious both play part in dreams

 

Overall I find this part very clear and well explained, but it seems to me it's just an introduction to what he'll say after. Although I haven't read part 3 yet so it's just a supposition.