Week 4 Jung's Man And His Symbols

[AfternoonTarot]

I hope everyone is enjoying the readings.  This week we’ll be reading the 4th Section of Chapter 1, The Analysis of Dreams, pp. 55 - 58 & The Problem of Types, pp. 58 - 66. Feel free to post multiple times through the week. 

 

Some Ideas for Discussion: 

 

Your reflections on the reading.  What stood out to you?  What surprised you?  What did you disagree with?  What did you relate to?

 

Anything “quotable?”

 

In what ways does the reading relate to Tarot symbolism and Tarot practice?

 

Share examples of symbols from art, popular culture, cultural artifacts, dreams, etc.

 

Anything else you’d like to discuss.

Edited September 8, 2019 by AfternoonTarot

[Starlight]

I've read the fourth section, The Analysis of Dreams, so I'll post my thoughts/quotations now.

 

Quote

"This conflict illustrates a vital point about dream analysis. It is not so much a technique that can be learned and applied according to the rules as it is a didactic exchange between two personalities."

 

(I won't list page numbers as my book doesn't match the online version.)

 

Quote

"The individual is the only reality."

 

Quote

"I gave up hypnotic treatment for this very reason, because I did not want to impose my will on others. I wanted the healing processes to grow out of the patient's own personality, not from suggestions by me that would have only a passing effect. My aim was to preserve and protect my patient's dignity and freedom, so that he could live his life according to his own wishes."

 

I wonder if it is Jung who influenced all the counsellors and therapists who came after him? Who helped them understand that the patient who finds his or her own answers is more likely to be able to work with those answers than someone who has been told what the answer is. To be able to put aside your own thoughts on those issues, your own "certainties" as to what will heal the patient, and to be patient with them while they work through the issue and find their own way forward - that's no small achievement. He really was a remarkable therapist. And a remarkable man, because the one makes the other.

 

[AfternoonTarot]

@Starlight - I so agree, I think Jung was remarkable.  I’m not sure about his level of influence - that’s an interesting question.  I can say from my experience that in both undergraduate and graduate studies we barely glossed over him.  However, personally, I felt that some of his ideas helped me to understand the theories of others that we studied, so I’m guessing there has to have been some influence even if not directly credited to Jung.  

 

I’m not quite done with the reading, but I wanted to comment on how interesting Jung’s explanation was as to why dreams “evade definite information or omit the decisive point.”  Basically, that the “subliminal state retains ideas at a lower level of tension than they possess in consciousness.”  (Emphasis added.) Unconscious contents don’t function with the same “logic or time scale” that our conscious contents do.  

[Mi-Shell]

Yes, the information also have to be smuggled past "Jonny Controlletty" = the EGO, or "controller" as Jung called him/ her. 

At university when I was young... there basically still were 2 camps: Jungian's and Freudian's, who thought Jung was "nuters"

Over the decades however we simply see the evidence of him being on the right track:

The patients treated by him and with ways developed after/ with his teachings get better and rarely have recurrences. while the ones treated with heavy drugs and or physicians using Freud as their benchmark are tied to a revolving door  = better for a short while and then the next nasty episode puts them back into the hospital and back to square one or maybe 2 ...... Even chronic schizophrenics that get a mix of medication and Jungian therapy are doing better and are largely out in the public, as opposed to in the closed wards of the psych hospitals.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Mi-Shell

[AfternoonTarot]

I had a super busy week this week but wanted to share a few observations about the reading.  

 

I found it interesting when Jung stated that its not only negative content that makes up the shadow, but that positive content can also be overlooked, disregarded, and repressed. I had previously thought that shadow material was negative or worse in some instances, e.g. unbearable.  And Jung’s statement that the unconscious censors critical thoughts in order to protect the individual from disagreeable reminiscence makes complete sense to me.  It’s the same in the helping professions.  We have to be careful not to inadvertently cause a client to face trauma or disagreeable reminiscences before they are ready.  

 

I also found it quite interesting when Jung stated that difficulties arise if the patient is of one psychological type, and the analyst is of another type and that it is “vitally necessary to take account of such differences of personality in dream interpretation.”  

On 9/9/2019 at 8:05 AM, Starlight said:

My aim was to preserve and protect my patient's dignity and freedom, so that he could live his life according to his own wishes."

Yes, I completely agree. And very relevant when working with diverse populations.  

 

 

 

[Starlight]

23 minutes ago, AfternoonTarot said:

I also found it quite interesting when Jung stated that difficulties arise if the patient is of one psychological type, and the analyst is of another type and that it is “vitally necessary to take account of such differences of personality in dream interpretation.”

Yes, I found this interesting, too. I always thought the therapist was sort of an authority figure with the knowledge and know-how, and that THAT was what mattered most (as well as there being some sort of rapport between therapist and client). It never occurred to me that an extravert and an introvert together might not fit well together.

 

What I also found interesting was the part where Jung says that

Quote

"Psychological experience and knowledge do not amount to more than mere advantages on the side of the analyst."

And also, 

Quote

"The analyst's whole personality is the only adequate equivalent of his patient's personality."

meaning that the analyst has to bring everything he or she is to the table and understand that his/her experience and techniques are bonuses but not enough by themselves to serve the patient or client well.

 

And with dream interpretation and its pitfalls, I liked this quote:

Quote

In our efforts to interpret the dream symbols of another person, we are almost invariably hampered by our tendency to fill in the unavoidable gaps in our understanding by projection - that is, by the assumption that what the analyst perceives or thinks is equally perceived or thought by the dreamer.

 

And he goes on to say why dreams aren't very specific or clear in the message they're conveying, because the symbols exist at a much lower state of tension in the subliminal realm. They are not as clearly defined or concrete, and become more comparable and similar.

Quote

"Thus a dream cannot produce a definite thought. If it begins to do so,  it ceases to be a dream because it crosses the threshold of consciousness."

 

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Starlight

[Starlight]

On 9/12/2019 at 5:59 AM, Mi-Shell said:

Over the decades however we simply see the evidence of him being on the right track:

The patients treated by him and with ways developed after/ with his teachings get better and rarely have recurrences. while the ones treated with heavy drugs and or physicians using Freud as their benchmark are tied to a revolving door  = better for a short while and then the next nasty episode puts them back into the hospital and back to square one or maybe 2 ...... Even chronic schizophrenics that get a mix of medication and Jungian therapy are doing better and are largely out in the public, as opposed to in the closed wards of the psych hospitals.

This is fascinating! I'm just unsure as to why therapists would continue with less effective methods when the results of the treatments using Jung's teachings are so much better. The wheels are moving slowly there! 

[Mi-Shell]

@StarlightThe answer to that question is very simple: MONEY!

therapists charge money for their sessions - or they charge the healthcare system. 

But when a patient gets better - no more money coming in......

also, working with Jungian principles is way more time consuming and so not realllllly what insurances like to pay for.

Especially, because there are no "kickbacks" from the drug companies coming in, when the patient does not get the expensive new (often side effect riddled) drugs. 

[Starlight]

Just now, Mi-Shell said:

@StarlightThe answer to that question is very simple: MONEY!

therapists charge money for their sessions - or they charge the healthcare system. 

But when a patient gets better - no more money coming in......

also, working with Jungian principles is way more time consuming and so not realllllly what insurances like to pay for.

Especially, because there are no "kickbacks" from the drug companies coming in, when the patient does not get the expensive new (often side effect riddled) drugs. 

I am so naive, I didn't even think of that.

That's really very sad. Money before people's well-being. 😢

[Mi-Shell]

Yes!!!! sadly.

It is the same with cancer treatments: There are waaaaay better faster and more effective C. treatments available / out there. 

Patient specific nanotechnology for example. But the big farma and the politicians in their pockets block these! 

and antibiotic resistend bugs?? do not get me started! There are phages developed in Russia, the cost 50 cents for a treatment and are renewable fungus based bacteria killers. We do not get them here, but here infected legs will be amputated. That surgery brings in money!

[AfternoonTarot]

I came across this collection of paragraphs from Jung’s Collected Works entitled, On the Nature of Dreams, which goes into some detail about analyzing dreams.  He lists three ways of proving the meaning of a dream directly (as opposed to requiring deep analysis) and explains the four phases of a dream. He also talks about the compensation and complementation function of dreams.  

 

I thought I’d share it here since dream analysis was the topic of this week.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by AfternoonTarot
Clarified source of material in the paper.

[Starlight]

Thank you for sharing, @AfternoonTarot :)

 

I was going to take @Mi-Shell up on her kind offer of posting a dream so she could show me how the process went, but I'm not sure if that would be outside the bounds of the post, plus I don't want to encroach on Mi-Shell's time and other priorities. :) 

 

(I'm happy to post if Mi-Shell is still ok with that and if the other participants think it would be helpful.)

[Mi-Shell]

I would be OK with it.

Iffff you rather not post -

you can start on your own by going through the questions I posted on the ?? week 3 thread.

First Q I always ask is, if this is a recurrent dream?

- then : did you have similar dreams or different ones that FELT somehow similar.....

- then tackle the Qs and see where that leads you.

I will be home and with a pooooooter and internet until September 27, then i will be off for 6 weeks with only very sporadic internet.

 

 

[AfternoonTarot]

20 hours ago, Starlight said:

Thank you for sharing, @AfternoonTarot🙂

My pleasure!

20 hours ago, Starlight said:

I was going to take @Mi-Shell up on her kind offer of posting a dream so she could show me how the process went, but I'm not sure if that would be outside the bounds of the post, plus I don't want to encroach on Mi-Shell's time and other priorities. 🙂

 

(I'm happy to post if Mi-Shell is still ok with that and if the other participants think it would be helpful.)

I would definitely find it helpful!  I think since its within the scope of what we are studying, it would be okay to post within this thread as long as we connect it back to our readings and the Jungian process. However, if I’m wrong about this, moderators please move it to where it should be. 

[Starlight]

OK, thank you both. I'll post a dream (it wasn't very long) and then I'll work through the questions Mi-Shell posted in the Week 3 thread and the extra questions posted here.

 

So this was a nightmare, in fact. They say we always dream, but I seem to only remember the nightmares. (sigh) I'm going to write the nightmare the way I wrote it in my journal, even though my inner critic is saying "Your syntax is all wrong!!"

 

There are people - especially small children - in a house, but other people in the house couldn't see them. One child, tumbling about (near a tumble dryer!) bright yellow hair. Disappeared, but I knew I'd seen him.

 

An older man (50s?) held me against the wall as I panicked. I screamed.

 

Some notes about this dream that I didn't write down but remember anyway: The tumbling child, a very happy little kiddo wrapped up in his own thing, actually appeared tumbling through what was a wall and was doing head-over-heels on top of the tumble dryer. As he noticed me see him, he vanished. Like he was a ghost.

 

 

22 hours ago, Mi-Shell said:

First Q I always ask is, if this is a recurrent dream?

- then : did you have similar dreams or different ones that FELT somehow similar.....

- then tackle the Qs and see where that leads you.

This is the first time I've had this particular nightmare, but most of my nightmares take place in houses. My earliest dreams/nightmares were in houses I knew, the more recent are not in houses I've seen in real life.

 

Perhaps something that is linked to this dream was a nightmare I had about being in a house at night, no lights, and finding the front door wide open. I felt unsafe and didn't know if someone had opened it as they left - or whether they'd left it open as they'd entered and were still there in the dark.

 

The tumbling child dream I posted above, though, was bright and took place in daylight. But because one is almost the complete opposite of the other I've made some sort of link between them. Almost as if the answer is - yes, there were people in the house and hey presto one of them is a tumbling child and the other is a man who appears to be attacking you.

 

I have had a nightmare of a man walking out of the dark walk-in wardrobe in my room at night, and it's possible he and the man in this dream are the same. Perhaps.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream tells me, that this is relevant for me today/ right now?

 

The tumbling child was definitely the focus of this dream, and I do have two children, the youngest of whom is a live-wire (as was his sibling at the same age). 🙂 But I don't know of anything else that relates to my life right now.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream point towards what/ which situation in my daily life right now?

 

As above.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream is recurring in / with different, maybe similar images?

 

The older man who may be dangerous (holding me against a wall, (arm on my neck?) or may simply be trying to calm me down out of hysterics. I didn't know. I've had dreams featuring strange, unknown men in them before.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream reminds me of another dream I had?

 

Panic. Definitely panic and fear. Those are the dreams I remember.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream shows me, that I may be out of equilibrium?

 

Well, hysterics at the tumbling child, perhaps, that vanished? Although, if that happened in real life, I think hysterics would be understandable? (Yes? No? Just me?)

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream points me towards what I understand as equilibrium/ psychological balance?

 

Hmmm, I wonder if it would be the tumbling child. He was happy, doing something that required a lot of skill, which other people might go into paroxysms over if it happened in real life (He's doing WHAT? WHERE?). But he was happy. And perfectly safe. And it was only when he noticed that he was seen that he disappeared. He was happier not being seen. Being seen means being judged.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream may show me, that I need something different then what I thought, to achieve that balance?

 

The older man holding me against the wall. Up against the wall - that's an expression isn't it. Back to the wall. That's a safe place to be, you don't have to watch your back. But up against the wall (and I'm pretty sure he was lifting me slightly) means being in a difficult situation. There's nowhere to retreat to. But there certainly wasn't a way forward either, with the older man in my way.

 

And the arm on my throat. (At least, I think it was.) A way to keep me quiet, literally, but certainly not the most gentle of ways to do it. And certainly not a very reassuring way of doing it. There was a sense of urgency about his actions. In the dream I'm not sure his actions were what I needed at all.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream points me towards the thought, that maybe balance is not, what I need right now?

 

Not sure there were any...

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream points towards a course of action?

 

Um... I can't think of anything.

 

What symbol/ scene/ expression/ feeling in the dream points me towards what to avoid/ not to do?

 

Hmmmm. Difficult. I was shocked and overwhelmed when I saw the disappearing child, and then frightened by the man's actions. I don't know that there was anything there that was pointing me towards anything to avoid.

 

 

So, this leads me to a couple of questions: 1. Do all dreams have messages for us related to your questions? 2. Is there always an answer in the dream?

Edited September 18, 2019 by Starlight

[Mi-Shell]

As an analyst I ask open ended questions, so you can start finding answers, these questions are a good start.

 

An older man (50s?) held me against the wall as I panicked. I screamed.

Who or what is/ are factors/ people, that restrain you, in real life?

Do you need restraining?

Does someone / or a part of you yourself think you need that?

Is someone / something restraining you, because you are happily tumbling, growing and getting away with it?

Why do you think it may be for your own safety?

If you were to see the man in a movie doing this to a woman, what would you think?

What would you call this?

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................

you remember feeling panic:

Panic. Definitely panic and fear. Those are the dreams I remember.

Was the panic when you saw the happy tumbling child?

-or when the kid disappeared?

 

Was the panic, because you were pushed against the wall and lifted off your feet?

Who is this guy anyway?? do you "know" him??

....................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Mi-Shell
another question

[AfternoonTarot]

10 hours ago, Starlight said:

An older man (50s?) held me against the wall as I panicked. I screamed.

Was this part of the dream separate from the part where you saw the child?  Such as, it happened in another room?  Was he one of the people in the house who couldn’t see the children?  Just trying to understand how he fit into the scenario.  A very interesting dream.

 

 

[Starlight]

2 hours ago, AfternoonTarot said:

Was this part of the dream separate from the part where you saw the child?  Such as, it happened in another room?  Was he one of the people in the house who couldn’t see the children?  Just trying to understand how he fit into the scenario.  A very interesting dream.

 

 

Good questions - I realise I could have added more detail. Yes, he was one of the people in the house but he couldn't see the children. No one but me could. And he wasn't in the same location, he was in an area to the side and pulled me there when I started panicking. :)

[Starlight]

@Mi-Shell - thank you for your response to the dream. I am seeing from your response that one basically relates symbols, feelings and other dream elements back to the dreamer and tries to find links to other dreams and to real life. Is that right? And then interpret dream actions to ask further questions - as in where you asked if I feel I was being restrained in some way.

 

Very, very useful exercise! I have a bit of a clearer picture now on how dream analysis works. Thank you! :)

 

 

[Starlight]

Further to the dreamwork, I can see how a querent's dreams might have relation to a reading we're doing for them. Whatever is coming up in their dreams is probably likely to also come up in a reading as well, especially if they're asking for a general reading. What do you think?

[AfternoonTarot]

On 9/18/2019 at 11:28 PM, Starlight said:

Further to the dreamwork, I can see how a querent's dreams might have relation to a reading we're doing for them. Whatever is coming up in their dreams is probably likely to also come up in a reading as well, especially if they're asking for a general reading. What do you think?

I agree.  I have come across this idea in several other readings.  Unconscious content comes through in dreams and it comes through in Tarot readings.  In her book Re-Symbolization of the Self, Inna Semetsky goes into a lot of detail regarding the latter.  

[Starlight]

2 minutes ago, AfternoonTarot said:

 In her book Re-Symbolization of the Self, Inna Semetsky goes into a lot of detail regarding the latter.  

Oh! I must take a look at the book! Thank you for sharing that resource. 🙂

[AfternoonTarot]

On 9/21/2019 at 7:59 AM, Starlight said:

Thank you for sharing that resource. 🙂

You’re welcome.  Mary K. Greer called it “A must to read.”  

 

....

 

 

I had been reflecting on this passage from the paper referenced above, On the Nature of Dreams, in which Jung says:

 

“Another way to get at the meaning of the dream directly might be to turn to the past and reconstruct former experiences from the occurrence of certain motifs in the dreams.  While this is possible to a limited extent, it would have a decisive value only if we could discover in this way something, though it had actually taken place, had remained unconscious to the dreamer or at any rate something he would not like to divulge under any circumstance. If neither is the case then we are dealing simply with memory images whose appearance in the dream is (a) not denied by anyone, and (b) completely irrelevant so far as meaningful dream function is concerned since the dreamer could just as well have supplied the information consciously.” 

 

I had an interesting dream Friday night, about being on a vacation where I did something something completely out of character.  The next morning I wrote it out in great detail and studied the different elements and themes.  Here’s what I found: 

 

Regarding things I “could just as well have supplied consciously,” there were 8 snippets relating to things that I thought about or had happened to me in the last day or two e.g. I am planning a trip; and there were 12 themes that reoccur frequently in my waking life i.e. conscious thoughts, e.g. I love cats and dogs.  

 

The dream also included 3 personally reoccurring dream themes, 3 symbols that had relevance for me, and 3 surprising elements e.g. I don’t recognize the person in the dream who was my partner.  Jung has referred to each of these elements in our readings in various ways.    

 

The next time I am able to recall a fleshed-out dream, I plan to repeat this exercise and see if the ratio of conscious to unconscious content holds.