EmpyreanKnight Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 Which Thoth books do you have in your library? Which ones do you recommend, and which ones would you warn others against? How helpful where they, what are the strengths and limitations of each, and in what stage of your Thoth journey did you study them?
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 7, 2017 Author Posted October 7, 2017 Btw, Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot by Lon Milo DuQuette has been tremendously helpful when I initially started my Thoth journey. Of course it's not as magisterial and chock-full as Crowley's Book of Thoth, but it never condescends to the reader, and tries its best to ease newbies into very esoteric concepts he may not have heard of before. I think it's one failing us that it did not go deeply into the divinatory aspects of the cards. In any case, there are other books that perform a neat job there while sticking close to Crowley's intended meaning for the system. And oh btw, I bit the bullet and bought Weiser's 2017 edition of the Understanding book. I'm just very curious of the changes DuQuette made lol, tho it's highly possible that these are miniscule. I can still do a lot of things to my old edition if they prove too similar. In any case, once it gets delivered (hopefully before the end of the month since I had to import it) I shall write here a comparison of the two editions so that you can take note of how significant the edits really are.
Page of Ghosts Posted October 8, 2017 Posted October 8, 2017 I only have the DuQuette book and I really liked it for explaining the systems and correnspondences with the Thoth deck, it's really well thought out! But I agree that it doesn't help much in terms of divinatory meanings, do you have any suggestions for a book that does that? For the book of Thoth I don't know when I'll feel ready to read it. I know it's quite advanced in a lot of ways, which is why I went for the DuQuette book, and I don't know if my English is quite there yet. I'm pretty fluent both spoken and written and I can read most books just fine, but because I couldn't read Wuthering Heights in English thanks to that obnoxious dialect of one of the characters that is hard to decipher, I'm kinda turned off by older books with a more complicated language :(
Trogon Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 All I've got is a print edition of Crowley's "The Book of Thoth", and the kindle edition of DuQuette's book. But, while I am working through the Thoth Tarot, it's kind of hit or miss ... kind of alongside my RWS as I copy my notes into another notebook.
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 12, 2017 Author Posted October 12, 2017 I only have the DuQuette book and I really liked it for explaining the systems and correnspondences with the Thoth deck, it's really well thought out! But I agree that it doesn't help much in terms of divinatory meanings, do you have any suggestions for a book that does that? If you want a quick resource for the Thoth's divinatory meanings, I would recommend Hajo Banzhaf's and Brigitte Theler's Keywords for the Crowley Tarot. It's a little book that is nevertheless dense with info. But if you want detailed books that also explores in depth the other aspects of the Thoth, you'd want to go with Banzhaf's and Akron's The Crowley Tarot: The Handbook to the Cards and Michael Snuffin's The Thoth Companion. I have all three, and they really opened up the deck to me. For the book of Thoth I don't know when I'll feel ready to read it. I know it's quite advanced in a lot of ways, which is why I went for the DuQuette book, and I don't know if my English is quite there yet. I'm pretty fluent both spoken and written and I can read most books just fine, but because I couldn't read Wuthering Heights in English thanks to that obnoxious dialect of one of the characters that is hard to decipher, I'm kinda turned off by older books with a more complicated language :( I honestly don't think it's just your grasp of English. I tried to read the Book of Thoth when I was just starting out, and I was left stupefied. But maybe now I can get a handle on it. By the way, the parts of the book discussing the cards themselves were not so difficult, altho some of the concepts were still a bit beyond my reach.
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 12, 2017 Author Posted October 12, 2017 All I've got is a print edition of Crowley's "The Book of Thoth", and the kindle edition of DuQuette's book. But, while I am working through the Thoth Tarot, it's kind of hit or miss ... kind of alongside my RWS as I copy my notes into another notebook. You ought to try at least one of the books I mentioned, Trogon. I think they might help you with your Thoth study. :)
Trogon Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 All I've got is a print edition of Crowley's "The Book of Thoth", and the kindle edition of DuQuette's book. But, while I am working through the Thoth Tarot, it's kind of hit or miss ... kind of alongside my RWS as I copy my notes into another notebook. You ought to try at least one of the books I mentioned, Trogon. I think they might help you with your Thoth study. :) I've got them on my wish-list now. ;) Thanks!
Bodhiseed Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 This aren't books, but bookmarks that I've found helpful: ;D The Royal Road http://www.tryskelion.com/tarot_sign.html The Raven's Tarot Site http://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/index.html Angel Paths: http://www.angelpaths.com/tarotl.html
Onaorkal Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 If you want a quick resource for the Thoth's divinatory meanings, I would recommend Hajo Banzhaf's and Brigitte Theler's Keywords for the Crowley Tarot. It's a little book that is nevertheless dense with info. But if you want detailed books that also explores in depth the other aspects of the Thoth, you'd want to go with Banzhaf's and Akron's The Crowley Tarot: The Handbook to the Cards and Michael Snuffin's The Thoth Companion. I have all three, and they really opened up the deck to me. That's the book I have! I got it for like 2$ in a used store but haven't even glanced inside it yet. (Well I don't even have the Thoth deck yet anyway.) Would you say it would not be a good idea to start tackling the Thoth with the help of this book? Should I look for something else first?
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 13, 2017 Author Posted October 13, 2017 Hi Onaorkal! If you just want to get your feet wet, or jump immediately into using the Thoth then yup, you can use the Akron book as your first foray into the Thoth. He is pretty faithful to Crowley's intended meanings especially regarding the symbols used in the cards. DuQuette does provide a meatier intro tho, and I feel like he sets the tone better, introduces the various contexts the Thoth works in so that you have a better grasp of what it is all about. Still, The Crowley Tarot is a competent book, and a good one to start the Thoth with.
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 13, 2017 Author Posted October 13, 2017 This aren't books, but bookmarks that I've found helpful: ;D The Royal Road http://www.tryskelion.com/tarot_sign.html The Raven's Tarot Site http://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/index.html Angel Paths: http://www.angelpaths.com/tarotl.html Thanks for the links, Bodhiseed! I use the Raven's Tarot Site myself, and now I'm curious about the other two. :D
Onaorkal Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 Hi Onaorkal! If you just want to get your feet wet, or jump immediately into using the Thoth then yup, you can use the Akron book as your first foray into the Thoth. He is pretty faithful to Crowley's intended meanings especially regarding the symbols used in the cards. DuQuette does provide a meatier intro tho, and I feel like he sets the tone better, introduces the various contexts the Thoth works in so that you have a better grasp of what it is all about. Still, The Crowley Tarot is a competent book, and a good one to start the Thoth with. Thank you EmpyreanKnight! I'm glad then! I bought the book because it was dirt cheap and because after a really quick online search while in the store, I found good reviews about it, but I never had the guts to ask anyone on AT at the time hahaha! I guess I was afraid of being told ''bad book, garbage, nope nope''. Whew!
Page of Ghosts Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 I only have the DuQuette book and I really liked it for explaining the systems and correnspondences with the Thoth deck, it's really well thought out! But I agree that it doesn't help much in terms of divinatory meanings, do you have any suggestions for a book that does that? If you want a quick resource for the Thoth's divinatory meanings, I would recommend Hajo Banzhaf's and Brigitte Theler's Keywords for the Crowley Tarot. It's a little book that is nevertheless dense with info. But if you want detailed books that also explores in depth the other aspects of the Thoth, you'd want to go with Banzhaf's and Akron's The Crowley Tarot: The Handbook to the Cards and Michael Snuffin's The Thoth Companion. I have all three, and they really opened up the deck to me. For the book of Thoth I don't know when I'll feel ready to read it. I know it's quite advanced in a lot of ways, which is why I went for the DuQuette book, and I don't know if my English is quite there yet. I'm pretty fluent both spoken and written and I can read most books just fine, but because I couldn't read Wuthering Heights in English thanks to that obnoxious dialect of one of the characters that is hard to decipher, I'm kinda turned off by older books with a more complicated language :( I honestly don't think it's just your grasp of English. I tried to read the Book of Thoth when I was just starting out, and I was left stupefied. But maybe now I can get a handle on it. By the way, the parts of the book discussing the cards themselves were not so difficult, altho some of the concepts were still a bit beyond my reach. Thanks for the book recommendations! I'll add them to my wishlist and give them a go. Maybe Snuffin and the first book you mentioned seem most interesting to me.
Rose Lalonde Posted October 13, 2017 Posted October 13, 2017 DuQuette's Understanding... Snuffin's Thoth Companion were good starts. The Book of Thoth. I like Liber Theta, and it has divinatory meanings. And getting out of the box a little, Wang's The Qabalistic Tarot and Fortune's Mystical Qabalah helped me understand the way the Thoth was built in part on the GD associations with the Tree of Life. -- (Philosophy, not divinatory meanings.) Honestly, the book that's taught me the most about the Thoth -- particularly the astrology side -- is Book M, the companion book to the Thoth inspired Tabula Mundi Tarot. Meleen quotes Crowley from Book of Thoth and his other writings, but she breaks the cards down for me in a way I easily relate to and enjoy. I know it's left field to pitch a companion book to a different deck, but Book M made many things in the Thoth a lot clearer for me, so that's my 2 cents. (The entire book is part of the cheap Fool's Dog app for TM) Oh, and not a book, but Raven's Tarot linked by Bodhiseed above was a big help, especially if you're looking for divinatory meanings in particular. Free and sticks close to Crowley. The Fortune's Wheel Podcasts (linked in the study group section) with Meleen and Chang are great (though maybe more intermediate than starter?)
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 16, 2017 Author Posted October 16, 2017 Hi Onaorkal! If you just want to get your feet wet, or jump immediately into using the Thoth then yup, you can use the Akron book as your first foray into the Thoth. He is pretty faithful to Crowley's intended meanings especially regarding the symbols used in the cards. DuQuette does provide a meatier intro tho, and I feel like he sets the tone better, introduces the various contexts the Thoth works in so that you have a better grasp of what it is all about. Still, The Crowley Tarot is a competent book, and a good one to start the Thoth with. Thank you EmpyreanKnight! I'm glad then! I bought the book because it was dirt cheap and because after a really quick online search while in the store, I found good reviews about it, but I never had the guts to ask anyone on AT at the time hahaha! I guess I was afraid of being told ''bad book, garbage, nope nope''. Whew! Lol I understand how that must have been, since the Thothies in AT held very strong opinions. But they were really helpful folk, especially when I was just beginning. I think that there are 3 types of Thoth books. The first one sticks closely to Crowley's definitions and meanings. These purist tomes would include the Duquette, Snuffin, Banzhaf, and Barlow books, along with Crowley's BoT of course. These are the books AT Thothies prefer. The second are the ones that prioritizes a different set of meanings for the symbols in the cards, which are more often Jungian than not. These include the Arrien book, along with the ones by Wanless and Tarantino book, if I'm not mistaken. I think the animosity against these is because of Arrien's quip that the Thoth Tarot should be interpreted on its own merit, and that Crowley's intended ones does not have to even be considered. I don't have the book yet but that's what I gleaned. The last one straddles a comfortable middle ground between the two. I would include Ziegler in this camp.
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 16, 2017 Author Posted October 16, 2017 OK, I think I have to clarify something. AT Thothies don't automatically brand all of the non-canonical (second-type) Thoth books as absolutely verboten. I won't presume to speak for them, but I think some of them are of the opinion that at least initially, during the start of a novice's Thoth studies, one must rely on tomes that discuss the cards' images and attributions the way Crowley originally intended them to. Once he is quite confident that he has achieved a level of competence with these, he may then explore other expert's interpretations of the Thoth. Later on, he may imbibe the meanings and ideas of whichever of the two (or more) schools resonate more with him, since what we're dealing with here is one's personal truth anyway. Like, build a firm foundation of solid Crowleyan knowledge re: the Thoth first, before one starts giving a greater nuance and variety to one's understanding of the deck by exploring other schools of thought. I've heard accounts of Thoth readers who exclusively relied on Jungian meanings but who were nevertheless successful at their trade, so they shouldn't really be disregarded. I hope that helped. :)
Onaorkal Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Thank you for those explanations EmpyreanKnight! I understand what you mean about the Thothies on AT and I think I understand them too. I will definitely start my study of the Thoth tarot by trying to understand Crowley's views. In fact I always intended to do so, and that's why I stayed away from it for a while. Because I totally despise Crowley as a human haha! ;D But it seems like I'm far from being the only one, even among the Thothies it seems a lot of people aknowledge that fact (well I guess it's an opinion and not a real 'fact' but anyway). I feel ready to give it its chance (the Thoth tarot, not Crowley lol). :P
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 17, 2017 Author Posted October 17, 2017 I wish you the best if you do decide to embark on your Thoth journey, Onaorkal! :D I didn't know how I missed Rose Lalonde's recommendations, but I very much second them. I have Wang's The Qabalistic Tarot and while I feel that it is more of an intermediate than a beginner book, it's still a very great resource to have once you've got the basics of the Kabbalah down pat. Also, it features a comparative esoteric analysis of four decks - Wang's very own Golden Dawn Tarot, the Rider-Waite-Smith, the Thoth, and the Marseille so it's really helpful. This bit reminds me of Rose's Comparative Tarot study group lol. Anyway, it's rather easy to read too as there are neither frills nor fillers. If anyone does decide to get it, I think Weiser already published a 2017 edition, so try to get that one if you can. I don't have Meleen's deck yet, but thanks for informing us that the entire Book M is available in the Fool's Dog app, Rose Lalonde! I will be sure to check that out, since I've also listened to her (joint) podcast and it's simply superb. One day, I shall be getting her deck and book set for the Tabula Mundi Colores Arcus, you can count on that. :) Rose Lalonde made an important point. If one wishes to truly explore the Thoth, I also think that some knowledge of the Kabbalah and Western astrology might be necessary.
Page of Ghosts Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 Thank you for those explanations EmpyreanKnight! I understand what you mean about the Thothies on AT and I think I understand them too. I will definitely start my study of the Thoth tarot by trying to understand Crowley's views. In fact I always intended to do so, and that's why I stayed away from it for a while. Because I totally despise Crowley as a human haha! ;D But it seems like I'm far from being the only one, even among the Thothies it seems a lot of people aknowledge that fact (well I guess it's an opinion and not a real 'fact' but anyway). I feel ready to give it its chance (the Thoth tarot, not Crowley lol). :P I don't think you have to be a fan of Crowley to use or study the Thoth at all. I find it helps to remember that the Thoth is not just Crowleys work, Lady Frieda Harris did an amazing job painting the pictures and had a lot of input re: the creation of the deck although Crowley was the one who had the final say with regards to if he found the paintings acceptable.
Rose Lalonde Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 Another intro suggestion. Several AT members agreed it's pretty good, and it's definitely short and to the point. Lo Scarabeo's intro to Kabbalah from their compendium. (link is to Lo Scarabeo's own post, so not pirated or anything.) And intermediate....maybe it's just me, but once you know the Tree of Life a little, I found Closrapexa's (AT) off the cuff metaphor of making a sandwich with the majors surprisingly helpful. That's here. (He also has good intro posts to Kabbalah here & court cards here) I have Wang's The Qabalistic Tarot and while I feel that it is more of an intermediate than a beginner book, it's still a very great resource to have once you've got the basics of the Kabbalah down pat. Absolutely! Intermediate. But I'm interested in the Qabalah in GD, RWS, and Thoth, so both are on my Thoth bookshelf. ETA -- And I forgot to mention my other book I'm half way through reading -- John Bonner's Qabalah primer, which is pretty meaty for a 'primer' but I wish I'd read it before Dion for some more background first. I enjoyed reading Wang, Fortune (and also intermediate, in my mind, Book of Thoth) more than my intro via DuQuette and Snuffin, but yes, Fortune is almost all background philosophy (with some lines that rocked my world :) ) Wang at least is all about relating it to the cards. Thank you for those explanations EmpyreanKnight! I understand what you mean about the Thothies on AT and I think I understand them too. I will definitely start my study of the Thoth tarot by trying to understand Crowley's views. In fact I always intended to do so, and that's why I stayed away from it for a while. Because I totally despise Crowley as a human haha! ;D But it seems like I'm far from being the only one, even among the Thothies it seems a lot of people aknowledge that fact (well I guess it's an opinion and not a real 'fact' but anyway). I feel ready to give it its chance (the Thoth tarot, not Crowley lol). :P I don't think you have to be a fan of Crowley to use or study the Thoth at all. I find it helps to remember that the Thoth is not just Crowleys work, Lady Frieda Harris did an amazing job painting the pictures and had a lot of input re: the creation of the deck although Crowley was the one who had the final say with regards to if he found the paintings acceptable. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Crowley personally (though I am a big fan of what he and Lady Frieda created). There are artists and scientists about whom I feel the same way.
EmpyreanKnight Posted October 22, 2017 Author Posted October 22, 2017 I finally got the revised edition of DuQuette's book. I'll compare it to the old edition and post the differences here. I just love the smell of new books. :)
Rose Lalonde Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 I finally got the revised edition of DuQuette's book. I'll compare it to the old edition and post the differences here. I just love the smell of new books. :) Thanks! I'm interested to know the difference.
pacificwaters Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 I browsed through a good part of DuQuette's classic, after which I ended up buying Sunuffin's book. Around the same time I also managed to lay my hands on The Qabalistic Tarot by Robert Wang. I love the depth this book offers with respect to the Tree of Life which had me intrigued post my interest in Thoth
Flaxen Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 Israel Regardie's books are worth a read generally to get a handle on the more esoteric aspects of the Thoth and Golden Dawn. I particularly enjoyed A Garden of Pomegranates which delves into the Tree of Life. For me, one of the great joys of the Thoth is all these interesting off-shoots. I also enjoyed delving into traditional astrology to get a handle on the planet/sign energies as they would have been understood at the time - before the modern interpretations took off.
EmpyreanKnight Posted January 8, 2018 Author Posted January 8, 2018 Israel Regardie's books are worth a read generally to get a handle on the more esoteric aspects of the Thoth and Golden Dawn. I particularly enjoyed A Garden of Pomegranates which delves into the Tree of Life. This is so going to be included in my library. Thanks!
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