Best Tdm Deck for Beginners

[TheBabelite]

Hello TDM folks,

 

Currently trying to dip my toe into the TDM pool, though I'm a RWS native. However, there are a lot of options, and I don't really seem to understand why I should favor one over the other. My only request is that I can get it somewhere other than Amazon, since I'm trying to reduce my use of that site.

 

Best,

Babelite

[Saturn Celeste]

3 minutes ago, TheBabelite said:

My only request is that I can get it somewhere other than Amazon, since I'm trying to reduce my use of that site.

I have this deck the Tarot De Marseille by Jodorowsky.  Here it is at the book depository site

https://www.bookdepository.com/Tarot-de-Marseille-by-Jodorowsky-Lo-Scarabeo/9780738750293?ref=grid-view&qid=1573861971856&sr=1-1

and the book

https://www.bookdepository.com/Way-Tarot-Alejandro-Jodorowsky/9781594772634?ref=grid-view&qid=1573862081842&sr=1-1

 

Here is the deck from amazon

And the book from amazon

 

I started out on the JJSwiss deck and loved it.  I didn't have a Marseilles book, I just started to memorize the minor arcana.  Guess it's not available anymore at least for less than $60.  I'm sure other members will give you more updated information on TdM decks. 😊

 

 

[Starlight]

There's another thread somewhere on the boards about the TdM and how to choose a deck. I'll see if I can find the link. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Starlight

[gregory]

11 hours ago, Saturn Celeste said:

I have this deck the Tarot De Marseille by Jodorowsky.  Here it is at the book depository site

https://www.bookdepository.com/Tarot-de-Marseille-by-Jodorowsky-Lo-Scarabeo/9780738750293?ref=grid-view&qid=1573861971856&sr=1-1

and the book

https://www.bookdepository.com/Way-Tarot-Alejandro-Jodorowsky/9781594772634?ref=grid-view&qid=1573862081842&sr=1-1

 

Here is the deck from amazon

And the book from amazon

 

I started out on the JJSwiss deck and loved it.  I didn't have a Marseilles book, I just started to memorize the minor arcana.  Guess it's not available anymore at least for less than $60.  I'm sure other members will give you more updated information on TdM decks. 😊

 

 

Amazon owns book depository....

 

I don't know where you are but try:

 

http://tarotgarden.com (USA)

Watkins (London, UK) - you have to email and ask them for whatever it is. https://watkinsbooks.com 

The Hermit's Lamp (Toronto) - https://thehermitslamp.com

https://www.collectarot.com (US)

Tarot Bulgaria - https://tarotbg.eu/en/

 

ONE of those should work !

[TheBabelite]

Thanks everyone! I'll check these links out, especially the thread @Starlight posted.

[_R_]

I just posted this elsewhere on the forum, but relevant so here goes: 

Grimaud have just released a 90 year anniversary edition (ahead of next year, that is) of the original 1930 Tarot de Marseille published by Paul Marteau. It comes in a box set and seems to be already available.
See here for some images: https://cartamundi.fr/fr/press/grimaud-cartomancie-90-ans-tarot-de-marseille/
Available here (or elsewhere): https://www.amazon.fr/Coffret-Tarot-Marseille-Paul-Marteau/dp/B07W6CDT6G

[Marigold]

I think the Grimaud is actually the best for "beginners". So I support _R_'s recommendation. It's actually still my favourite deck and always use it for the really tough questions.

 

I would avoid the Camoin/Jodorowsky as a beginner (an interesting deck but somewhat fantasy at times) - it's sort of a "quirky" deck. Nice to observe and puzzle about though (those eggs!!!).

 

And if anyone recommends buying a Fournier deck, my wrath will descend quickly. It's sort of what I call the "disco" deck of the TdM. Disco is cool but not for the TdM. A bit of decorum for heaven's sake ! 😅

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGWdhieK9k

Edited November 18, 2019 by Marigold

[Guest]

I agree with _R_ and Marigold. The Ancien Tarot de Marseille is the best. I have, recently, gone back to using it myself after some time with the Jean Noblet. 
 

I have several editions, including an original 1930s version. The 90th anniversary set is nice. My working set is the green box version and a set of trumps marketed as “ancient tarots major arcana.” 
 

I do like both the Noblet and Dodal. If you don’t like the Grimaud the Tarot de Marseille Millennium Edition is a nice alternative.

I don’t like the Jodorowsky tarot.

[Marigold]

51 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

 

I have several editions, including an original 1930s version. The 90th anniversary set is nice. My working set is the green box version and a set of trumps marketed as “ancient tarots major arcana.” 
 

I do like both the Noblet and Dodal. If you don’t like the Grimaud the Tarot de Marseille Millennium Edition is a nice alternative.

I don’t like the Jodorowsky tarot.

This 1930 version does it have any particularities ? 

 

Noblet and Dodal are great too. Conver is King of TdM though I think. 

 

I'm hugely appreciative of Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseilles, but again I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner. He has made some little touches of his own which I think makes it a bit apart (most of the touches meet my personal approval but there's one that really irks me and I can't remember what it right this second.) I love working with it also because of the colours that I find seem to help the intuitive side (but maybe that's just me.)

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Marigold said:

This 1930 version does it have any particularities ? 

 

Noblet and Dodal are great too. Conver is King of TdM though I think. 

 

I'm hugely appreciative of Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseilles, but again I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner. He has made some little touches of his own which I think makes it a bit apart (most of the touches meet my personal approval but there's one that really irks me and I can't remember what it right this second.) I love working with it also because of the colours that I find seem to help the intuitive side (but maybe that's just me.)

The version I acquired has poorer cardstock than the 1940s version - it feels almost as if two pieces of card are stuck together. Several cards are stained and corners are battered (I cannot complain as I paid considerably less than some do). It has the fleur de lis on the 4 de Deniers. 
The 1940s version, I have shows le bateleur with two red coins but has the tulip on 4 de deniers. There is faint handwriting on it. The card stock is beautiful. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Guest

[Marigold]

1 minute ago, leroidetrèfle said:

The version I acquired has poorer cardstock than the 1940s version - it feels almost as if two pieces of card are stuck together. Several cards are stained and corners are battered (I cannot complain as I paid considerably less than some do). It has the fleur de lis on the 4 de Deniers. 

The 1940s version, I have shows le bateleur with two red coins but has the tulip on 4 de deniers. There is faint handwriting on it. The card stock is beautiful. 

Oh, I'd love to hold that 1930s one in my hands ! Lucky you!!! 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Marigold said:

This 1930 version does it have any particularities ? 

 

Noblet and Dodal are great too. Conver is King of TdM though I think. 

 

I'm hugely appreciative of Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseilles, but again I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner. He has made some little touches of his own which I think makes it a bit apart (most of the touches meet my personal approval but there's one that really irks me and I can't remember what it right this second.) I love working with it also because of the colours that I find seem to help the intuitive side (but maybe that's just me.)

The 1940s is what I suspect my grandmother used. It certainly looks more like hers than the 1930s. However I believe that there were more than two versions in the 1930s.

 

I no longer own Kris’ deck. It was beautiful. 
 

My favourite “Marseille” is the Dodal. I adore the faces and expressions. But I do feel the ancien tarot de Marseille is a standard and what I recommend. 

[bastetly]

I have to ask.  I am getting more confused.  As most recs here are for the 3 cardinal-colored Ancien/Marteau.  WHY is this preferred to similar decks w some greens and lighter blue?  I ask bc I'm very color sensitive (and I have the Arnoult on my WL bc of its beauty and tradition).  The Marteau 1930s deck looks to be the red-blue and yellow.  WHY is this a better choice for learning than the other very similar decks?  Is it the geometry bc other more color-full decks have that as well, no?  I just find the 3 color deck a bit stiff and ugly tbh.  (I do already have the Burdel/LoS mini).  

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, bastetly said:

I have to ask.  I am getting more confused.  As most recs here are for the 3 cardinal-colored Ancien/Marteau.  WHY is this preferred to similar decks w some greens and lighter blue?  I ask bc I'm very color sensitive (and I have the Arnoult on my WL bc of its beauty and tradition).  The Marteau 1930s deck looks to be the red-blue and yellow.  WHY is this a better choice for learning than the other very similar decks?  Is it the geometry bc other more color-full decks have that as well, no?  I just find the 3 color deck a bit stiff and ugly tbh.  (I do already have the Burdel/LoS mini).  

Hello Bastetly 🙂 

 

Different cartomantes will have different reasons one would suspect. For me, it’s a combination of symmetry and clarity. Laid out, the ancien tarot de Marseille allows a clear tableau of colour pooling and progression which becomes less so with the others.  In addition, there is clearer regards and focusing.
 

Both Flornoy and others have critiqued Marteau fairly, if we are honest. But those criticisms do not address the patterns workability. Similarly, as Marigold said, others are so OTT.

I enjoy others, but I do find the Grimaud helps me focus better. 

[Marigold]

3 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

 

I enjoy others, but I do find the Grimaud helps me focus better. 

This. 

[Marigold]

bastetly, if you're colour sensitive, there is a BEAUTIFUL TdM from Japan. The Isis Tarot of Marseilles. And it reads very well indeed. And the cards shuffle so beautifully and they don't slip (I hate it when cards are slippery. It's not difficult to use another cardstock for heaven's sake.)

 

http://www.isis-osiris.jp/english/ISISVersion.html

 

As you'll see, it's quite a deck ! Do you know it or do you have it ?

 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Marigold

[bastetly]

Hi Marigold and yes I have seen the ISIS.  The more modern colorations w the bright white backgrounds and colors just don't appeal, so I prefer the older renditions which tend to be somewhat "softer" and aged.  Which is why I don't have the CBD or Jodorowsky's either.  Are these and others the OTT you and Andy are referring to?

 

Hello Andy:   So I will keep what you've pointed out in mind: color pooling, progression, focus and regards (as in where/how the characters are looking?)  As I read more about the TdM this may make more sense.  But darn!  I just don't like the 3 colors yet  😕  If anyone buys the new re-issue I wd love to read the review.  It's in my basket....

[Marigold]

36 minutes ago, bastetly said:

Hi Marigold and yes I have seen the ISIS.  The more modern colorations w the bright white backgrounds and colors just don't appeal, so I prefer the older renditions which tend to be somewhat "softer" and aged.  Which is why I don't have the CBD or Jodorowsky's either.  Are these and others the OTT you and Andy are referring to?

 

 

I get what you're saying about the colorations in the Isis. I think it's why I don't use it too often. But it reads helluva well. Sort of easy peasy. Maybe too easy peasy.

 

CBD I consider a faithful and authentic Tarot of Marseilles. That being said, I don't own one so I haven't examined it first hand. But from what I've read from sources I trust, I consider it at present part of the True Family.

 

Camoin/Jodorowsky is really more fantastical. One must keep that in mind when reading it otherwise it doesn't make sense. So it's better I would think to use a Camoin/Jodorowsky deck once one has a very good inkling of what the TdM is. It doesn't take long to get this inkling if one starts with a "normal" deck. As long as you know it's a bit kinky, it's ok. The danger is if you DON'T know. In the large majority, it does respect the tradition. 

 

Camoin's deck is more of a sort of bedside table deck. Instead of reading Peter Pan before nodding off to sleep, you read Camoin. I like Philip Camoin. He's a very unusual man. Got to take him as he is. Maybe he also lives a bit in a fantasy world. Why not ? It's his right. His reading method is incredibly precise and very interesting. I've forgotten it now. I did some courses with him once. So I thought I don't care if some of cards are in the realm of fantasy. This guy has stumbled upon or tapped into something and then worked it out on paper and came up with a method that provides such amazing readings, and so I'm happy to have his deck to nod me off to sleep. It's a very nice story too. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Marigold

[_R_]

The colours of the Hadar deck are quite nice and muted. Have a look at reviews of that too.

[_R_]

4 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Both Flornoy and others have critiqued Marteau fairly, if we are honest. But those criticisms do not address the patterns workability. Similarly, as Marigold said, others are so OTT.

 

 

With all due respect to the late J.-C. Flornoy, his criticisms - and I refer to his page here https://www.letarot.com/dossier-chaud/heritiers-de-nicolas-conver/  - are most certainly unfair as well as uninformed and misleading as far as Marteau's deck & book are concerned.

 

[Marigold]

6 hours ago, _R_ said:

 

With all due respect to the late J.-C. Flornoy, his criticisms - and I refer to his page here https://www.letarot.com/dossier-chaud/heritiers-de-nicolas-conver/  - are most certainly unfair as well as uninformed and misleading as far as Marteau's deck & book are concerned.

 

I fully agree. And am very glad that you brought this up. It's always bothered me. 

[Marigold]

With regard to the Camoin deck. I just want to add one thing. People refer to it often as the Jodorowsky deck. Although the deck was made in partnership with the two gentlemen, I think it is more correct to refer to it as the Camoin deck. I think that the deck would have been created by Camoin even if Jodorowsky hadn't joined the party. But not the other way round. The driving force I believe was Camoin. 

 

Jodorowsky wrote a book though. 

 

I believe, from what I've heard from sources I trust, that the partnership wasn't always an easy road. I doubt it was a bed of rose petals all the time.

 

 

[Raggydoll]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

I fully agree. And am very glad that you brought this up. It's always bothered me. 

I would love to know more about this. What’s the main disagreement/controversy ? The link was in French so I couldn’t make much sense of it. Need to run it through google translator  later 

[gregory]

Mainly the colouring, I believe.

This is a rubbish translation but offers the gist - Marigold can amend it ! (Please ! There is more, but it refers to images...)

 

Quote

Edition The Heron, facsimile of the original: 1760 Conver

For two generations of researchers, the only tarot of Marseille available on the market was that of Paul Marteau, published by Grimaud since 1930, under the name  "Ancien Tarot de Marseille". This tarot has number of problems for any lover of authenticity. Today, thanks to the web and to the work of many researchers, practically all the world archives are available and a new critical reflection is possible. For both generations, all the analysis and comments made on this deck assumed its reputation of being the only authentic and traditional tarot was accurate. In addition, it bore the stamp of the cartier Nicolas Conver, whose game, held at the Bibliotheque Nationale, bears the date of 1760. The problem is that nothing holds up as soon as one searches a bit through the archives: the images are a reductive copy and the colours have nothing to do with the original.

What happened?

In 1760, the game of tarot, which has already nearly 400 years of history, was losing momentum in court and among players. The cartiers of Paris and Lyon had already abandoned it; only the Cartiers Marseille and the South of France really bothered with it. Stencilled games were very expensive. Also they were made on fragile paper and had a short life.

Industrialization could have changed the game a little by lowering costs but would not have revived the extraordinary popular enthusiasm that the game of tarot could have had.

In 1890, the commercial war between the Marseille and Parisian cartiers was raging. Camoin inherited the Conver estate which in reality consisted mainly of well used moulds, small equipment and commercial deposits. For its part, Grimaud, by buying Lequart in 1891, did the same by taking over the Parisian cartier Arnoult. Arnoult was not licensed (?) for tarots, only for ordinary cards in 1748. Even so, it was a tarot directly copied from the Conver which came into to existence.

Subsequently, Camoin lost interest in tarots, devoting himself to the export of ordinary games to the colonies, mainly the Far East, before finally disappearing in 1970. At the beginning of the twentieth century, Grimaud resumed the "branch Tarot "of the house Camoin and can thus be said to be the heir to Nicolas Conver.

Occultism gave a second wind to publishers and Grimaud, winner of the "battle of the tarots", became for a long time the only publisher. This is how we arrived in 1930 with Grimaud as patron: Paul Marteau. Wanting to be part of the esoteric and spiritual intelligentsia of his time, he committed the betrayal par excellence: hack, grind, knead a tradition. For two generations he let people think the deck was more beautiful than it really was, letting them believe that his tarot was that of Nicolas Conver, when it was only a mediocre copy, the result of various commercial and technical operations.

Two generations have studied and analyzed completely bogus colours, the worst betrayal of this man is there to see: he has lost the tarot its usefulness because of changing the colours. How many minds have gone astray and turned in circles in "paths that lead nowhere" as Martin Heidegger could have said.

Let's still make a posthumous tribute to this man, without him, the graphics "said Marseille" would not have been published and the two generations past would have had available only the Anglo-Saxon tarots, fantasy and outside of all tradition.

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by gregory

[Raggydoll]

44 minutes ago, gregory said:

Mainly the colouring, I believe.

This is a rubbish translation but offers the gist - Marigold can amend it ! (Please ! There is more, but it refers to images...)

 

 

Thanks! Wow, those were some really harsh words and allegations 😬😅. I’m clearly no expert but it does come across as exaggerated and lacking nuance. I guess this is a topic some people feel very strongly about, and I do understand why. Tradition and truth is incredibly important, but there are many ways to express ones opinions..