Best Tdm Deck for Beginners

[Raggydoll]

51 minutes ago, bookshop said:

@katrinka I've been wondering why earlier editions of the Yves Madenie seem to be so coveted when he's still selling it. Can you tell us more about these shadows images and what they do to the deck?

It’s atmospheric, that’s the best way I can describe it 🙂. And it also means that you see the imperfections that the original deck had, so I guess some people find it more genuine in that way? 

[katrinka]

Yes, they make it interesting.
Some possible explanations: https://tarot-heritage.com/2013/05/11/the-pierre-madenie-1709-tarot-de-marseille-facsimile-deck/

[bastetly]

16 hours ago, katrinka said:

The Tarot - especially TdM - is a deck of playing cards.

I wonder about this statement?  I see Andy saying this too.  The Minors and 3 of the Courts are playing cards yes, but Tarot includes the Majors, and they are not playing cards.

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, bastetly said:

I wonder about this statement?  I see Andy saying this too.  The Minors and 3 of the Courts are playing cards yes, but Tarot includes the Majors, and they are not playing cards.

A pinochle deck consists of two copies of each of the 9, 10, jack, queen, king, and ace cards of all four suits. That's a total of  48 cards per deck, but a pinochle deck is still a deck of playing cards. The same can be said of reduced decks used for piquet and the like. 

The number of cards just depends on the type of game being played.

Tarot was, and is sometimes still used for a trick taking game, kind of like Spades. (The High and Low Jokers in Spades can function a lot like the Tarot Majors.)
See where I'm going with this? 😉

Edited November 30, 2019 by katrinka

[bastetly]

Yes I've read some tarot history where the full deck or even just the Triumphs were used in games.  Maybe it's because I view the Majors more esoterically (incl. the Tdm) and separate fm the rest.  But at least I'll understand better perhaps why you're grouping them together as playing cards.  Esp. in a discussion on the Minors. 

Funny, my mind defaulted to what is now a standard deck of 52,  but trick-taking games I was never taught.

My Grandma LOVED them but she only played w her Bridge Club and maybe other games w "the girls", but not w us.  😕

Anyway, does it seem that I following your point?

[Marigold]

The game of Tarot, still very popular in France and Switzerland today, uses all 78 cards. The Fool is called "L'Excuse".  They don't use the esoteric deck anymore but it has all the major trumps, minors and courts. Originally it was played with a Tarot of Marseille/Italian deck. And one could use the Tarot divination deck if one wanted to. All the cards are there and are the same. But people play it with a different deck - the Tarot playing deck. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot_card_games

 

The Tarot was originally a deck for playing cards. Played in taverns and inns and in houses. The Tarot game is a really really interesting card game. I've spent many nights till the sun starts rising playing it. I recommend it to anyone who enjoys playing card games. 

 

P.S. I see that wiki says the game of Tarot is still the second most popular card game in France.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Marigold

[bastetly]

On 11/30/2019 at 8:23 AM, bookshop said:

@katrinka I've been wondering why earlier editions of the Yves Madenie seem to be so coveted when he's still selling it. Can you tell us more about these shadows images and what they do to the deck?

@bookshop, if I may:  I don't think Yves is still selling the first edition w the ghost images.  He cleaned them up and that's what's for sale in his shop now 

Pierre Madenie restoration 2016

[Raggydoll]

3 minutes ago, bastetly said:

@bookshop, if I may:  I don't think Yves is still selling the first edition w the ghost images.  He cleaned them up and that's what's for sale in his shop now 

Pierre Madenie restoration 2016

Yes this is right, the first edition was different. If anyone wants closeups of the madenie then I can show mine. I only have the first edition so I can’t show any comparisons but the new one is depicted on yves site. 

[katrinka]

14 hours ago, bastetly said:

Yes I've read some tarot history where the full deck or even just the Triumphs were used in games.  Maybe it's because I view the Majors more esoterically (incl. the Tdm) and separate fm the rest. 

There are some strong hints of that in the Majors. If that's the case, I think hiding it in plain sight in common gaming decks used in taverns and suchlike was genius. But they're still gaming decks, i.e., playing cards. 😉

14 hours ago, bastetly said:

But at least I'll understand better perhaps why you're grouping them together as playing cards.  Esp. in a discussion on the Minors. 

Funny, my mind defaulted to what is now a standard deck of 52,  but trick-taking games I was never taught.

My Grandma LOVED them but she only played w her Bridge Club and maybe other games w "the girls", but not w us.  😕

Anyway, does it seem that I following your point?

Indeed it does. 🙂
I'll give a quick explanation the Spades reference: a person leads by throwing a card out and you have to follow with a card of the same suit. If your card is a higher number, you take the trick. But if you don't have any of that suit, you can throw a Spade out there and still take the trick. Spades are trumps (I hate that word now, ack!) Even the 2 of Spades beats an Ace or King of another suit.
We used to take a couple of the non-Spade deuces out of the deck and use Jokers. The Joker beats everything, even Spades, and the High Joker (the one with the bigger image) beats the Low Joker.
And Jokers are often used as wild cards in poker and whatnot. So they're kind of like Majors in the sense that they're not part of the suits, but they're strong.
Some people equate the Joker to the Fool, and image-wise there's similarities, but as L'Excuse, I don't think the Fool scores, IIRC. We use our modern Jokers more the way the other Majors are used in gaming.

3 hours ago, bastetly said:

@bookshop, if I may:  I don't think Yves is still selling the first edition w the ghost images.  He cleaned them up and that's what's for sale in his shop now 

Pierre Madenie restoration 2016

Yes. I think I got mine in 2013 or so.

3 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Yes this is right, the first edition was different. If anyone wants closeups of the madenie then I can show mine. I only have the first edition so I can’t show any comparisons but the new one is depicted on yves site. 

That would be nice, as I'm getting ready for work and don't have time to dig it out and photograph it. But if you haven't gotten to it by morning, I will. :)

[bastetly]

11 hours ago, Marigold said:

The game of Tarot, still very popular in France and Switzerland today, uses all 78 cards. The Fool is called "L'Excuse".  They don't use the esoteric deck anymore but it has all the major trumps, minors and courts. Originally it was played with a Tarot of Marseille/Italian deck. And one could use the Tarot divination deck if one wanted to. All the cards are there and are the same. But people play it with a different deck - the Tarot playing deck. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot_card_games

 

The Tarot was originally a deck for playing cards. Played in taverns and inns and in houses. The Tarot game is a really really interesting card game. I've spent many nights till the sun starts rising playing it. I recommend it to anyone who enjoys playing card games. 

 

P.S. I see that wiki says the game of Tarot is still the second most popular card game in France.

 

Thanks you for all the explanation and the link @Marigold.  That was pretty much news to me!

 

52 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Indeed it does. 🙂
I'll give a quick explanation the Spades reference: a person leads by throwing a card out and you have to follow with a card of the same suit. If your card is a higher number, you take the trick. But if you don't have any of that suit, you can throw a Spade out there and still take the trick. Spades are trumps (I hate that word now, ack!) Even the 2 of Spades beats an Ace or King of another suit.
We used to take a couple of the non-Spade deuces out of the deck and use Jokers. The Joker beats everything, even Spades, and the High Joker (the one with the bigger image) beats the Low Joker.
And Jokers are often used as wild cards in poker and whatnot. So they're kind of like Majors in the sense that they're not part of the suits, but they're strong.
Some people equate the Joker to the Fool, and image-wise there's similarities, but as L'Excuse, I don't think the Fool scores, IIRC. We use our modern Jokers more the way the other Majors are used in gaming.

@katrinka, you've been very generous in taking the time to literally spell out (on you smart-phone??) how a trick-taking game can work.  I really appreciate those details 🙂  I had to re-read and process until I felt comfortable w my rather simple reply (~8 hrs? lol).  I've found not jumping in too quickly w "but...but...but"  pays off.  Yours and @Marigold's time:  PRICELESS  ❤️

[bastetly]

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

18 hours ago, bastetly said:

Yes I've read some tarot history where the full deck or even just the Triumphs were used in games.  Maybe it's because I view the Majors more esoterically (incl. the Tdm) and separate fm the rest. 

There are some strong hints of that in the Majors. If that's the case, I think hiding it in plain sight in common gaming decks used in taverns and suchlike was genius. But they're still gaming decks, i.e., playing cards. 😉

Indeed. 

[katrinka]

Some of the Madenie cards with the shadow images. It looks like the sheets may have been laid together when they weren't quite dry. You can see Le Bateleur on Reyne de Baston and vice versa.
Some of them are really hard to see here, though. Maybe @Raggydoll would have better luck?

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by katrinka

[bookshop]

oh @katrinka that is really wonderful, how fascinating, thank you for sharing these!

 

this is a big tangent but i was just looking over my Yves decks and i hadn't realized before that he includes a rec for another deck, including a mention of a single card, at the bottom of the handwritten notes he writes for us. At the bottom of the note for my Claude Rochias deck, he's written "C. Burdel 1751, 9 d'espée," and at the bottom of my Burdel deck, he's written "F Chosson 1736, As de Batons." What does it mean? Is he reccing my next deck? (That I magically bought anyway in the case of the Burdel?) What about the individual cards? I can't believe it took me so long to notice this. 

[Raggydoll]

16 hours ago, katrinka said:

Some of the Madenie cards with the shadow images. It looks like the sheets may have been laid together when they weren't quite dry. You can see Le Bateleur on Reyne de Baston and vice versa.
Some of them are really hard to see here, though. Maybe @Raggydoll would have better luck?

 

 

Here are two closeups that hopefully show the ghost lines:

 

 

[katrinka]

Thanks, Raggy!
Your camera kicks butt. 🥰

[bastetly]

Is that a pussy-willow between Le Bataleur's legs?  I need to find out why that was placed there! as most TdMs take pains to include it  😄

[Marigold]

38 minutes ago, bastetly said:

Is that a pussy-willow between Le Bataleur's legs?  I need to find out why that was placed there! as most TdMs take pains to include it  😄

The most common theory is that it has some phallic reference. It's plausible.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

Whatever it is , it isn't a pussy willow. Maybe a cactus....

[Decan]

This Tarot Pierre Madenie looks really interesting.

The drawings are artistic and inspiring but the colors are as well vibrant!
The problem with the Tarot Conver I mentioned -I regret a bit finally to mentioned it- are mainly the colors, really really palish (and the brown back isn't fantastic too), as if the cards were diluted in a bowl of water. 🥴

This one has a better presence!

On my wish list!! 🙂

Edited December 7, 2019 by Decan