Learning Tdm (Resources And Discussions)

[devin]

Mr. Calvino's relevance to tarot is his novel The Castle of Crossed Destinies.

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Castle-of-Crossed-Destinies

[devin]

Here is a more in depth introduction to the Castle of Crossed Destinies and the author's wider project.

 

https://blogs.cornell.edu/exlibris/2014/05/19/the-castle-of-crossed-destinies-by-italo-calvino/

 

It includes this marvelously evocative quote:

 

Now that we have seen these greasy pieces of cardboard become a museum of old masters, a theatre of tragedy, a library of poems and novels, the silent brooding over down-to-earth words bound to come up along the war, following the arcane pictures, can attempt to soar higher, to perhaps heard in some theatre balcony, where their resonance transforms moth-eaten sets on a creaking stage into palaces and battlefields 

 

 

Also, a sequel of sorts has appeared on traditionaltarot.wordpress.com to the previously mentioned piece on tarot love significations. Apart from dealing with the various iconographic elements of the Lover and their relevance to divinatory interpretation, there is also an exploration of how different categories of love could potentially be mapped to the four tarot suits. Interesting stuff.

 

https://traditionaltarot.wordpress.com/2020/07/10/the-tarot-and-the-four-loves/

Edited July 11, 2020 by devin

[devin]

There's another interesting translation gone up on Traditional Tarot - one that reveals an early and rather seminal attempt to deal with the Tarot on its own terms, free of occult signification and correspondence, metaphysical speculation, too. To say that this is/was an influential idea would be an understatement. Other than that, I'll let the translator's introduction speak for itself:

Quote

Jean Paulhan (1884–1968) was an influential French writer, literary critic and publisher, one who played a major role in French writing during the 20th century. In addition to numerous novels, translations of poetry, and studies on art, Paulhan was also interested in the study of language, and the following essay on the Tarot falls into this last category, as we shall see. Effectively, Paulhan provided a thought-provoking and pioneering preface ... for the classic work on the Tarot of Marseilles, Le Tarot de Marseille, published by his exact contemporary Paul Marteau (1885-1966), heir and director of the Grimaud cardmaking firm and creator of the eponymous deck, in 1949.

Quote

This preface, above all, marks one of the key stages in the evolution of the study of the Tarot, since it heralds an entire seam of what may be properly called Tarology – the study of the Tarot as a language – an optical language, and one devoid of occultist or mystical speculation. ... The publication of this piece aims ... to enable the reader to gain some insight on how to approach the Tarot as a language on its own terms. 

https://traditionaltarot.wordpress.com/2020/07/31/jean-paulhan-on-the-proper-usage-of-the-tarot/

Edited August 4, 2020 by devin

[_R_]

For those who are still somewhat puzzled or intrigued by the Tarot of Marseille and its modern incarnation, the deck produced by Paul Marteau, here is the first introductory piece in a series on this very topic.

[vulprix]

7 hours ago, _R_ said:

For those who are still somewhat puzzled or intrigued by the Tarot of Marseille and its modern incarnation, the deck produced by Paul Marteau, here is the first introductory piece in a series on this very topic.

Thank you for this! I am glad the content you linked is (at least right now) not password-protected. I was not aware of the details concerning Marteau’s work in TdM interpretation, in historical context.

[_R_]

18 minutes ago, vulprix said:

Thank you for this! I am glad the content you linked is (at least right now) not password-protected. I was not aware of the details concerning Marteau’s work in TdM interpretation, in historical context.

You’re welcome. There are a couple more articles on Marteau and his work yet to come in the next few weeks, once I get round to overhauling the site somewhat.

[_R_]

For those who like the Grimaud deck or are curious about the evolution of Tarot de Marseille, here’s a biography of Paul Marteau.

[katrinka]

Thank you!

It's interesting that Beuchet says Papus died of exhaustion. Was that a euphemism for tuberculosis?

[_R_]

22 minutes ago, katrinka said:

It's interesting that Beuchet says Papus died of exhaustion. Was that a euphemism for tuberculosis?

 

I don't think it is a euphemism, or a medical assessment, either, just what was reported at the time. 

[fire cat pickles]

Exhaustion sounds like stroke to me, possibly bilateral. Tuberculosis was called consumption back then.

[devin]

We should not underestimate the stress involved in maintaining the levels of hubris required of a 19/20th century occultist. Exhausting. Then again, Wikipedia says it was TB during WW1. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gérard_Encausse#Death

Edited May 14, 2021 by devin

[_R_]

Well he certainly appears to have been Balzacian in appetite, to say the least.

Curiously, the French version of Wikipedia doesn't specify tuberculosis, only that he died from the after-effects of his stint as a medical doctor on the eastern front. All the references I've seen are very circular, but I presume the answer is in Papus' biography by his son, which I haven't seen, and I can't say I've been curious enough to try and track it down. 

[devin]

I've just read the piece. Fascinating. And it does make one wonder where exactly the image of Marteau as a canny, carpetbagging hack came from? The truth of the man appears to have been the complete and literal opposite. Does the slur stem from gauche debunkers? Or jealous occultists? Whatever, it's interesting that both Marteau and Etteilla, two of the Tarot's most popularly seminal figures, suffered similar accusations of commercial hackery since their deaths.

 

Anyway, great piece.

Edited May 16, 2021 by devin

[_R_]

Let’s just say that a certain number of people who lived in stone houses were throwing glasses…

 

I’m not certain that Etteilla and Marteau are comparable in this respect: Marteau was born into it, and doesn’t seem to have paid too much attention to the day-to-day running of the business, aside from the elaboration of his own deck. The Grimaud empire, as it were, had been built on innovation mixed with judicious investments and takeovers; buying out or suing the competition, essentially, but Marteau was rather late to the game by then. Sure, he probably did see a gap in the market for a traditional divinatory deck, judging from all the complaints in the late 19th century/early 20th century literature about the lack of a “proper” Marseilles deck, but his personal investment in the project cannot be underestimated either.

 

As to Etteilla, while his contribution will eventually have to reassessed, now that most of the documentation is (or is becoming) available, I do think it’s fair to say that he was very much a hack, although that is not to say that he wasn’t a humanist after a fashion, but his own writings (and the many advertisements they contain) speak for themselves.
 

[devin]

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

As to Etteilla, while his contribution will eventually have to reassessed, now that most of the documentation is (or is becoming) available, I do think it’s fair to say that he was very much a hack, although that is not to say that he wasn’t a humanist after a fashion, but his own writings (and the many advertisements they contain) speak for themselves.

 

Next you're going to tell me he wasn't a hairdresser?

 

Seriously, though, and not wanting overstep my knowledge on the matter, I might try and defend Etteilla a little by claiming that to qualify as a true hack he would have to have lacked a genuine and abiding interest in occultism. This doesn't seem to have been the case, does it? If so, one could then easily make excuses for his being practical and following market imperatives and the like, leaving him canny but not hacky.

 

One other thing, the Marteau biography's namechecking of Ananda Coomaraswamy reminded me of another of your translations:  Charles Estienne's Assessment of a Year of Painting: Book Review: Paul Marteau: Le Tarot de Marseille. Here, I particularly enjoyed his concise and satisfying defence of abstract art along lines sympathetic to the 'traditionalism' of Coomaraswamy.

 

~~~

 

The Secret of the World

It is therefore not absolutely absurd to reproach the so-called abstract painters of violating, to a certain degree, the “rule” of a certain pictorial tradition, for in fact, they are no longer playing at only reproducing appearances; and this in order to “participate in the secrets of the world, — short of understanding them,” as Paulhan remarks. They do not reason by identities, but proceed by analogies: which is the very principle of the Tarot (and of poetry…).

 

And, still following the same comparison, a non-figurative composition of forms and of colours, if painted by an authentic artist, one in deep “affinity” with his “mental and passional projection,” this “combination” is in greater accord with the “cosmic laws”, and reveals more of the presence of Nature than the repetition or the imitation of forms outside it. In this way, new art, probably unwittingly, reconnects with an even more ancient tradition than that of the Renaissance, and in its own way, it no longer plays cards, it reads them… or it plays something else, that is truly its fate, fused with that of the artist-man.

 

One will note, I hope, that such principles demand just as much, if not more, from so-called abstract art than from its contrary…

 

~~~

[_R_]

“Hack” may a bit harsh, you're right, his personal investment in cartomancy is beyond doubt, that much is true. But there is very much something of the huckster about him; job-hopping (as I believe it’s called) from one thing to another, forever on the make, until he decided on reading cards and writing books. There is a obvious mercantile streak to his writings; although the advertisements and so on provide a certain amount of “realia” or ephemera and give some measure of insight into what the lived situation as far as divinatory practice on the ground was like.

 

It’s worth bearing in mind the aristocratic disdain and indeed prohibition on “business” and “trade”, and as a lot of the early writers on tarot were of that background, or feigned to be, then it comes as no surprise that Alliette was considered an unscrupulous interloper. He may well have been a victim to classist prejudice, but then, he did attempt to make the most of his ideas financially too.

 

I think I agree with Messrs Dummett, Decker and Depaulis when they write: “There is something touching in the man, who was sincere and passionate, generous and enlightened (in all the meanings of the word in the late XVIII century).” (Wicked Pack of Cards, page 99). 

 

Marteau (and his publisher) certainly had some reach in the world of the arts, as evidenced by all the somewhat highbrow reviews. As I pointed out somewhere, his book was published by a prestigious graphic design from, and not by some occultist publishers or anything of the sort. In itself, that much is noteworthy.

[devin]

6 hours ago, _R_ said:

It’s worth bearing in mind the aristocratic disdain and indeed prohibition on “business” and “trade”, and as a lot of the early writers on tarot were of that background, or feigned to be, then it comes as no surprise that Alliette was considered an unscrupulous interloper. He may well have been a victim to classist prejudice, but then, he did attempt to make the most of his ideas financially too.

 

 

Yes, I was going to mention that making a living is atrociously ill bred, but decided against it, thinking it might come across as a bit vinegary, which was not the intention. 😀 

 

Anyway, I've always had a soft spot for somewhat gaudy characters and approaches.

 

Thanks again for a great article!

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by devin

[Bodhiseed]

Robert O'Neill's look at the majors:

 

http://www.tarot.com/tarot/robert-oneill/[name of card]-cards

example: https://www.tarot.com/tarot/robert-oneill/world-cards

 

[Mister]

On 11/21/2019 at 3:50 PM, gregory said:

I linked a book in French on the other thread.

 

Le code secret du Tarot de Marseille - Mars 2011.pdf 7.92 MB · 28 downloads

 

Its author is translating it a page at a time and putting it on facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/tarotchoco/

 

 

This is one refreshing read, I must say.

 

@_R_, any chances of seeing you and the author co-operate on a translation into english?

[_R_]

21 hours ago, Mister said:

@_R_, any chances of seeing you and the author co-operate on a translation into english?

 

Unlikely; there are only so many hours in the day and my translation schedule is currently full for the foreseeable future. In fact, the first work of the year will be published next week, details to follow. There are 3-4 others in the pipeline after that.

 

But the author occasionally puts English material online, has contributed to online debates in various fora over the years, and the thesis is now fairly well-known, should anyone take an interest in it.

[Mister]

2 hours ago, _R_ said:

Unlikely

Figures.

 

2 hours ago, _R_ said:

the thesis is now fairly well-known, should anyone take an interest in it.

Any tip on where to look?

 

It is an amusing read nonetheless - amongst other joyous occurences, I find myself looking for a footnote mentioning Monsieur outre tombe - in his Meditations, the abbé was mentioned.

I will continue to do so.

[_R_]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:05 PM, Mister said:

Any tip on where to look?

 

 

Yes, you could always contact the author himself to enquire about English versions of his writings.

 

In the meantime, your browser ought to do a passable job of translating his blog, e.g. here: https://tarotchoco.quebecblogue.com/introduction-suger-le-createur-du-tarot/

[_R_]

There's also the TarotL list, which ROM now runs.

No doubt the archives will contain a wealth of details on his theory.

 https://groups.io/g/TarotL

[Mister]

Belated, but anyway:

Thank You, @_R_.

 

A dive into the links did provide the information I was looking for.