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Learning Tdm (Resources And Discussions)


Raggydoll

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18 hours ago, devin said:

Well, I could have made you far more uncomfortable, but, as I don't want to embarrass you, I shall just say that there is a reason I put your blog on its own line and called it wonderful. Still, the above link has been changed and now takes one directly to your TdM posts.

Devin you're very kind, and I did not desire to offend you.  I just do not think I deserve being amongst those people.  My contribution is far less than these. 

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2 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Devin you're very kind, and I did not desire to offend you.  I just do not think I deserve being amongst those people.  My contribution is far less than these. 

Quality beats quantity every time, though. 😉

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9 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Devin you're very kind, and I did not desire to offend you.  I just do not think I deserve being amongst those people.  My contribution is far less than these.

Andy, I was not even slightly offended. And Katrinka's spot-on in her assessment of the quantity vs. quality issue (well, in your case, anyway).

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1 hour ago, devin said:

Someone said that anyone new to the TdM should start with Enrique Enriquez. Now, I'm not sure I agree, but here is an index of links to his tarot workshop as conducted on the now defunct Aeclectic tarot forum. Much info on his method to be gained. Very generous of Mr. Enriquez, really.

 

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=102599

I’m not too sure I agree, to be honest. However, he is a fascinating individual and generous. 

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That person was me (my post must be somewhere further up in this thread.)

 

I think his method is perfect for people who are only used to the RWS tradition, the meanings of which have become second nature and ingrained. Through Enriquez' method, this "programming" or "habit" can be broken. For someone who is an absolute beginner in Tarot, like they've just discovered their interest in it and are not yet in a habit mode, this is not necessary.

 

Then one moves onto more serious stuff.

 

I don't think I explained this in my post... so it's incomplete. Sorry.

 

It's damn hard to not think of the tarot in terms we are used to and accustomed to. With the TdM, one requires a clear cut break and I really think that Enriquez' method is a fine way to go about this. One forgets swords, wands, etc. and what they meant to you in the olden days. Numbers too (remember how in RWS Justice is 11 and not the other way round ?... this can be a real stumbling block for people who come to the TdM from the RWS - just to give one example.)

 

Edited to add: I mentioned Wands. There are no Wands in the TdM. That too must be forgotten. Call them Sticks if Batons sounds odd and awkward (it is a French term so in English sounds a bit funny) - but they're definitely not wands !!! 

 

 

Edited by Marigold
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I agree, Marigold.  Over the last eight years or so, I have repeatedly said that the biggest issue is the preconceived ideas.  Enrique is not my favourite, but there is very little to refer to. 

 

We had it when the Anglos became interested in the Lenormand Oracle, too.  There was a big debate on how you do not read Lenormand like you read tarot.However, this is only true of how they read tarot.  

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1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

I agree, Marigold.  Over the last eight years or so, I have repeatedly said that the biggest issue is the preconceived ideas.  Enrique is not my favourite, but there is very little to refer to. 

 

 

I'd love one day to collaborate with maybe two or three other people (more would make it too unwieldy) and exchange our ideas about reading the TdM with an RWS background and to do something with a bit of more "meat" than Enriquez and to write a real method that people could download and use free of charge and if people like it, publish a book and if it makes any benefits give them to a decent charity. (I don't think people should enrich themselves through the Tarot, I find the idea distasteful.)

 

I don't have time for the next couple of years I think to embark on such a great project, but I think there is a missing piece in the world of tarot. @leroidetrèfle If one day, I do take steps, I'll ask you most likely if you want to join. 

 

However, if anyone wants to grab my idea and do this in the meantime, I won't mind. I throw the idea to anyone who wants to catch it. (I'm also a copyleft person especially when it comes to ideas. Ideas should not be copyrighted.)

 

There that's said.

Edited by Marigold
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8 hours ago, devin said:

Someone said that anyone new to the TdM should start with Enrique Enriquez. Now, I'm not sure I agree, but here is an index of links to his tarot workshop as conducted on the now defunct Aeclectic tarot forum. Much info on his method to be gained. Very generous of Mr. Enriquez, really.

 

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=102599

My, that's one from the vaults. "Oldy  old old old", as Moms Mabley would say. 😎
They were fun exercises.

But I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I wouldn't tell people to start with EE. (And this isn't a diss, Enrique's a Good Egg.)
He does his own idiosyncratic blend of things, and those things aren't always germane to card reading. Exercise 1, for instance, is pure mentalism. Exercise 2, Eye Rhymes, is useful, but it's a standard TdM technique. Andy does it here, and he certainly didn't learn it from EE. ("But the debate stops short, with the two stressing odds, as the blue ribbon around the coins become the cold steel of the ace of swords.") https://abfortuneteller.home.blog/2019/08/12/a-brief-typography-on-reading-pip-cards/ What you get with EE is theater, peppered with actual reading techniques. And if you're new to all that, you might not know the difference. This stuff is heady for newcomers - it can get people thinking they're doing amazing readings, when all they're doing is going off on tangents.

If anyone is coming to TdM from RWS, Thoth, etc. and wants to learn to read cards without Waite, Jung, Crowley, etc. butting in, I'd suggest spending time learning to read standard playing cards by number and suit. The meanings carry over to TdM quite nicely.  https://artofcartomancy.blogspot.com/p/cartomancy-card-meanings.html

Systems like Lenormand, Sibilla, Belline, Kippers, etc. are also good for that.

Again, I'm not dissing EE. By all means, read his stuff if you enjoy it.
I just don't consider it a solid introduction to TdM.

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5 hours ago, katrinka said:
5 hours ago, katrinka said:

 ("But the debate stops short, with the two stressing odds, as the blue ribbon around the coins become the cold steel of the ace of swords.") 

 

It's not so crazy actually. There are often things that morph into something else in the TdM. Perhaps this is where out intuition comes in.

 

The cold steel is quite an interesting remark I think. 

 

 

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Yeah, where to start is a tricky subject. When people ask me I usually send through a boat-load of information and leave them to muddle their way through. Which is spectacularly unhelpful, I suppose. Then again, it's the way I learnt: Started with RWS, came across TdM, ditched RWS, became enamoured by the 'no card has any essential meaning' idea, got some okay results, wanted more specificity and speed, stumbled upon reading with playing cards, came to appreciate older divinatory meanings for the TdM majors, brutally justified every meaning (old and new) against the card's image, studied Lenormand methods, and so it continues.....

 

But, I must say, getting into reading with playing cards was a real turning point, it helped me to build my reading muscle and learn/practice a number of useful techniques: pace, rhythm, attendance, affinity, discerning the 'tone' of a spread, etc. (I'm sure lenormand would have had a similar effect.)

 

Also, private correspondence with a member of this forum has given me a greater appreciation of the older French writers (well, the stuff available in English and via online translation, anyway), whose writings contain, sometimes only implicitly, many of the above methods. The same correspondent also pointed out the fact that Enrique Enriquez was well versed in the above literature before developing his 'primitivist' approach. An important point to remember, perhaps.

Edited by devin
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Is this old lineage of card reading something you can learn for example through the book ‘Untold Tarot’ from Caitlin Matthews? Or are there other sources you recommend to learn to read with the TdM?

 

(I’m a Total beginner in TdM)

 

🙏🙏🙏

Edited by Losgunna
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2 hours ago, Marigold said:

It's not so crazy actually. There are often things that morph into something else in the TdM.

I stated it was a standard TdM technique.
Who said it was crazy?

56 minutes ago, devin said:

Also, private correspondence with a member of this forum has given me a greater appreciation of the older French writers (well, the stuff available in English and via online translation, anyway), whose writings contain, sometimes only implicitly, many of the above methods. The same correspondent also pointed out the fact that Enrique Enriquez was well versed in the above literature before developing his 'primitivist' approach. An important point to remember, perhaps.

Exactly this.

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1 hour ago, devin said:

Yeah, where to start is a tricky subject. When people ask me I usually send through a boat-load of information and leave them to muddle their way through. Which is spectacularly unhelpful, I suppose. Then again, it's the way I learnt: Started with RWS, came across TdM, ditched RWS, became enamoured by the 'no card has any essential meaning' idea, got some okay results, wanted more specificity and speed, stumbled upon reading with playing cards, came to appreciate older divinatory meanings for the TdM majors, brutally justified every meaning (old and new) against the card's image, studied Lenormand methods, and so it continues.....

 

But, I must say, getting into reading with playing cards was a real turning point, it helped me to build my reading muscle and learn/practice a number of useful techniques: pace, rhythm, attendance, affinity, discerning the 'tone' of a spread, etc. (I'm sure lenormand would have had a similar effect.)

 

Also, private correspondence with a member of this forum has given me a greater appreciation of the older French writers (well, the stuff available in English and via online translation, anyway), whose writings contain, sometimes only implicitly, many of the above methods. The same correspondent also pointed out the fact that Enrique Enriquez was well versed in the above literature before developing his 'primitivist' approach. An important point to remember, perhaps.

I would love for you to share some of your favorite resources or methods for reading playing cards that you feel can benefit the person learning tdm. That aspect of it would not be off topic since we have seen several people attest to how they feel this benefited their journey with marseille. Katrinka already shared a great site and I would be glad to see even more tips. I too feel like a lot of the older methods go hand in hand or at least play very well together. 

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On 11/25/2019 at 10:46 AM, Losgunna said:

Is this old lineage of card reading something you can learn for example through the book ‘Untold Tarot’ from Caitlin Matthews? Or are there other sources you recommend to learn to read with the TdM?

On 11/25/2019 at 11:57 AM, Raggydoll said:

I would love for you to share some of your favorite resources or methods for reading playing cards that you feel can benefit the person learning tdm. That aspect of it would not be off topic since we have seen several people attest to how they feel this benefited their journey with marseille. Katrinka already shared a great site and I would be glad to see even more tips. I too feel like a lot of the older methods go hand in hand or at least play very well together. 

Personally, I would only echo two of Katrinka's links: https://artofcartomancy.blogspot.com/ is absolutely fantastic, giving more than enough info on techniques and meanings to get anyone started (and then some). It's also a flexible system, which is good. Andy's short intro on reading pips is great, too: https://abfortuneteller.home.blog/2019/08/12/a-brief-typography-on-reading-pip-cards/ 

 

I reckon the tricky bit is getting a good handle on the essential meanings of the trump cards. Not because this is in and of itself a necessarily difficult task, but because most books on the subject give a long list of potential meanings without explaining how these are derived from observing a card's essential nature as it interacts with its surroundings (in the spread) and labours under the context of a question. Discerning the 'essential' is an ongoing process for me. Andy talks about it here: https://abfortuneteller.home.blog/2019/01/12/eikon-image-trumps-symbol . This article on lenormand explains the idea in greater depth: https://abfortuneteller.home.blog/2019/07/31/lenormand-oracle-essence-and-function/

 

Untold Tarot is cool, good and useful on many levels, but it doesn't deal with the above very well, imo. 

 

On 11/25/2019 at 3:15 AM, katrinka said:

Eye Rhymes, is useful, but it's a standard TdM technique. Andy does it here, and he certainly didn't learn it from EE. ("But the debate stops short, with the two stressing odds, as the blue ribbon around the coins become the cold steel of the ace of swords.")

Yeah, and Andy's rhyme does not in any way contradict the basic meaning of the reading as derived from using the number and suite method. 

Edited by devin
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Now, I don't want to come across like a fundamentalist or anything (people should read the TdM in ANY way that works for them), but the reason I don't think starting with Enriquez is a particularly good idea is summed up rather well by William Fancourt in this little snippet on learning the I-Ching: 

 

Quote

Despite the scholarly debate that surrounds the original meaning of the ancient text, the received Tradition is the solid foundation upon which all subsequent endeavours should be based. It is the basic vocabulary of the system. The beginner's first task is to learn this and how to use it. In time they may come to question that Tradition, they may even reject it, forming their own unique relationship with the I Ching. But they will have reached that point by their own efforts, not by having it imposed on them.

 

source: https://www.biroco.com/yijing/sorrelldening.htm

 

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1 hour ago, devin said:

Now, I don't want to come across like a fundamentalist or anything (people should read the TdM in ANY way that works for them), but the reason I don't think starting with Enriquez is a particularly good idea is summed up rather well by William Fancourt in this little snippet on learning the I-Ching: 

 

 

source: https://www.biroco.com/yijing/sorrelldening.htm

 

I absolutely agree. I also feel that it is slightly problematic to hear Enrique talk the way he does about fortune telling, because that is a very real part of the history of tarot. Plus I do feel it gets confusing when he says in the movie that he has clients that asks him whether they will ever conceive a child, and then somehow those type of readings aren't thought of as fortune telling. Therefore I think that it is probably best to first get a grip of the history and the tradition of TdM before deciding on a single approach. Enrique is basically promoting only one type of reading and discouraging all the others, and that's not how I would want to go about it with a beginner. I say, explore it all and try all the different ways. You will soon notice what you like and what works for you. Also, keep in mind that your preferences might change with time and that is also more than okay. (I do want to point out that I think that Enrique's methods are very fascinating and that he is clearly very good at what he does. Plus he seem like a really great guy, so I don't have anything against him as a person whatsoever. It is just those two things that I don't agree with). 

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If anyone feels like checking out Camelia Elias's method, here are some of her introductory articles on reading the TdM: http://www.aradia-academy.com/2017/02/16/marseille-cards-method/ and here is Ms. Elias on playing cards: http://www.aradia-academy.com/2017/02/16/playing-cards-method/

 

21 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I do feel it gets confusing when he says in the movie that he has clients that asks him whether they will ever conceive a child, and then somehow those type of readings aren't thought of as fortune telling.

Good point. Jodo does the same thing, I think.

On 11/24/2019 at 6:52 PM, Marigold said:

Edited to add: I mentioned Wands. There are no Wands in the TdM. That too must be forgotten. Call them Sticks if Batons sounds odd and awkward (it is a French term so in English sounds a bit funny) - but they're definitely not wands !!! 

What about clubs?

Edited by devin
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13 hours ago, devin said:

 

What about clubs?

Nope. Not fitting. Clubs are made to plonk people on the head or murder them. Trolls carry clubs (I learned this in one of the Harry Potter books - remember that troll that was loose at Hogwarts ? Nasty fellow.) 

 

I think we're stuck with Batons. Sort of the Ceremonial Type. TdM King of Batons has a most impressive one. He's such a dandy isn't he that  King ?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Marigold said:

Nope. Not fitting. Clubs are made to plonk people on the head or murder them. Trolls carry clubs (I learned this in one of the Harry Potter books - remember that troll that was loose at Hogwarts ? Nasty fellow.) 

 

I think we're stuck with Batons. Sort of the Ceremonial Type. TdM King of Batons has a most impressive one. He's such a dandy isn't he that  King ?

 

 

This is an interesting discussion! In Swedish all of those things just mentioned becomes more or less a non issue. We don’t use those words and the words we DO use have another set of meanings. So I tend to not worry about the English titles but rather work with my own direct understanding at what I see in the image

and what I believe an item is and can be used for. Maybe it can for once be a strength to not be a native English speaker 😛 

 

As a side note, the suit of clubs in playing cards are called ‘klöver’ here. It very simply means Clover. The shape of the symbol is definitely like a clover and I have never understood the clubs thing. (I do believe the French word for this suit means clover too?) Maybe European countries share a more similar view of some things and tend to describe them in a similar way? 

 

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