Bonestone and Earthflesh Tarot

[ilweran]

49 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I think a fictional Bonestone tribe would best be left to an actual Native person to create.

I guess that would depend on where the fictional tribe were supposed to be from.

 

It's a shame anyway, for all the reasons already said and because Ana Tourian's art is beautiful and this could have been so special.

[gregory]

3 hours ago, ilweran said:

I was about to say that.

 

I think if the leg work had been put in to have an actual fictional, fleshed out Bonestone tribe rather than 'I want to do this and I need a quick excuse' it could have been awesome if done well. Like Tarot of the Cat People which has it's whole fictional world.

 

Oh well, somewhere in an alternate universe...

 

I would have liked that, too.

And I think it could have been done, and done well. JUST like Cat People.

 

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I agree. What bothers me is that nowhere in the book can I find information that tells me what part of the myths are true to traditional sources and what’s made up. There are no cited sources and no mentioning of things like this invented bonestone tribe, so all we have to go on are the images and the words - which for that particular card highly suggest First Nation spirituality. Another thing is the intro/binding spell. It talks about secret knowledge handed down through ages. That implies that we are not looking at things that were made up. So idk 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

Exactly this. And that binding spell aimed at detractors - so very unnecessary.

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

There's an old saying: "A giraffe is a horse put together by a committee." 😉

I think a fictional Bonestone tribe would best be left to an actual Native person to create. Researching isn't the same as growing up and living in a culture. Even people with the best intentions tend to fail at things like that. And Avalon and Ana have already shown that they don't care, in no uncertain terms. The deck is full of dog whistles, too many to be accidents.

And as for the binding spell, "unfaithful eyes"? I think our eyes are being honest with us. They're giving us the unvarnished truth, unpleasant though it is.

 

If you completely make your own world - as Kuykendall did - it works.

 

1 hour ago, Mi-Shell said:

 

Holy Smokes!!!

♥♥♥ @Raggydoll!♥♥♥

That is shocking to me!

First I thought, the deck creator had carefully chosen THESE Symbols because they appear on NA as well as other people's ancient petroglyph and pictograph sites AND also maybe = make that  ARE (thanks, Raggy ♥ ) runes.....

Stupid little me........

 

What kind of a deck is this?

Will you guys be able to read with it AFTER all this came to light?

 

 

It can be read with, yes. But it is hard in places. There are overlaid extra meanings which hit you because of the errors. But it is also beautiful.

 

BUT - about the runes. I was thinking about this. This is NO excuse for the palpable lack of research, I have to say. BUT - "education" in Tarot and all the other things we all do here is sadly lacking. You can buy runestones in Dollartree, never mind in ordinary "alternative stores". Very rarely indeed do they EVER say that they are exclusively Scandinavian. Not even respectable sets like the one I own.

 

Who's to say that Ana, in particular, as she apparently chose the ones used, but also  Avalon, has any reason to suppose they aren't simply universal and not peculiar to any one culture. That sounds shocking - but think about it.... How would they know ? Everyone "knows" what each rune means - it says on the sheet in the little bag. But - where did they come from - how many people who buy them ever ask ? I think this one may be simply down to a TOTAL lack of knowledge. Appalling, and unacceptable in a work of stature - but still...

 

51 minutes ago, ilweran said:

I guess that would depend on where the fictional tribe were supposed to be from.

 

It's a shame anyway, for all the reasons already said and because Ana Tourian's art is beautiful and this could have been so special.

Yes. It is, and it could - and it CAN be read with, as I say. But what a missed opportunity.

Edited October 13, 2020 by gregory

[katrinka]

17 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

I would have liked that, too.

And I think it could have been done, and done well. JUST like Cat People.

...

If you completely make your own world - as Kuykendall did - it works.

 

But these would be Native Americans, not Cat People.
 

17 minutes ago, gregory said:

BUT - about the runes. I was thinking about this. This is NO excuse for the palpable lack of research, I have to say. BUT - "education" in Tarot and all the other things we all do here is sadly lacking. You can buy runestones in Dollartree, never mind in ordinary "alternative stores". Very rarely indeed do they EVER say that they are exclusively Scandinavian. Not even respectable sets like the one I own.

 

17 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

Who's to say that Ana, in particular, as she apparently chose the ones used, but also  Avalon, has any reason to suppose they aren't simply universal and not peculiar to any one culture. That sounds shocking - but think about it.... How would they know ? Everyone "knows" what each rune means - it says on the sheet in the little bag. But - where did they come from - how many people who buy them ever ask ? I think this one may be simply down to a TOTAL lack of knowledge. Appalling, and unacceptable in a work of stature - but still...

 

Ample historical evidence points to Scandinavia, but no, we can't prove they didn't come from from someplace else before that. But that's like disproving Russell's teapot.

Inability to disprove does not prove. If it did, we'd never stop believing in Santa Claus. No presents? He's old, maybe he retired. No workshop at the North Pole? Maybe he moved...
 

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Inability to disprove does not prove. If it did, we'd never stop believing in Santa Claus. No presents? He's old, maybe he retired. No workshop at the North Pole? Maybe he moved...
 

No presents? Maybe you were too naughty? No workshop at the North Pole? He closed it down and is now affiliated with Wish 🤪

 

I do actually think that *most* people are aware of where the runes are from, because they are so linked to Odin. Though, as you know, I personally don’t go to him on rune related quests. I prefer to take it to the proper source 😊 

[katrinka]

10 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

No presents? Maybe you were too naughty?

 

Well yeah.
 

10 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

No workshop at the North Pole? He closed it down and is now affiliated with Wish 🤪

 

That would explain why I never got the lump of coal for my stocking, or my bundle of switches. Lost in the mail.
 

10 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I do actually think that *most* people are aware of where the runes are from, because they are so linked to Odin. 

 

That, and virtually all the literature I've encountered on them mentions "Scandinavia", "Norse" or "Germanic". Including the brief  introductory blurb on the little sheets enclosed with sets, at least the ones I've seen. (Though I don't frequent Dollar Tree - everything in ours is broken or long-expired.)

 

10 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

Who said anything about it having to be a Native American tribe ? Just a tribe that was made up, from a made up culture, living anywhere.

 

That works. It's been done - many times. Successfully and well, I might add.

 

10 minutes ago, gregory said:

That's not for one moment saying it's OK. Anyone putting out a project with this kind of detailed book should have researched and realised what a shocking faux pas it would be to place runes this way. But we know - from so many things and from watching the bashes - that that wasn't the way it was done. It was very much "want this image, OK I can use this that I found somewhere...." And if they do in fact know their runes - that makes it rather worse than I first thought.

 

Yes. It's surreal in its badness.

 

[FindYourSovereignty]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

There's an old saying: "A giraffe is a horse put together by a committee." 😉

I think a fictional Bonestone tribe would best be left to an actual Native person to create. Researching isn't the same as growing up and living in a culture. Even people with the best intentions tend to fail at things like that. And Avalon and Ana have already shown that they don't care, in no uncertain terms. The deck is full of dog whistles, too many to be accidents.

And as for the binding spell, "unfaithful eyes"? I think our eyes are being honest with us. They're giving us the unvarnished truth, unpleasant though it is.

 

True. I agree.

Who puts a binding spell in a guidebook? Has anyone seen this done before? 

[FindYourSovereignty]

4 hours ago, Mi-Shell said:

What kind of a deck is this?

Will you guys be able to read with it AFTER all this came to light?

 

 

In answer to both of your questions: I honestly don't know. 😐 Obviously people will be able to read with it. I am just not sure that I want to read with it knowing these details. It is disconcerting to me for a few different reasons and therefore makes me feel this is not a good deck for me to use.

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by FindYourSovereignty

[Raggydoll]

7 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

 

True. I agree.

Who puts a binding spell in a guidebook? Has anyone seen this done before? 

No, it sort of remind me of those wiccan pinterest grimoires. 

[FindYourSovereignty]

4 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

No, it sort of remind me of those wiccan pinterest grimoires. 

 

Maybe when she first started the deck and everyone was so enamored with her this would have been okay, like a personal little witchy message from her, but after everything that has happened it is an addition that feels manipulative.

 

I am henceforth not going to give this any further attention as I know what one focus on grows into something not worthy of the energy it is receiving. I appreciate being able to participate in this conversation.

[Raggydoll]

 

23 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

I am henceforth not going to give this any further attention as I know what one focus on grows into something not worthy of the energy it is receiving. I appreciate being able to participate in this conversation.

That sounds really wise 🌸

[joy]

7 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I agree. What bothers me is that nowhere in the book can I find information that tells me what part of the myths are true to traditional sources and what’s made up. There are no cited sources and no mentioning of things like this invented bonestone tribe, so all we have to go on are the images and the words - which for that particular card highly suggest First Nation spirituality. Another thing is the intro/binding spell. It talks about secret knowledge handed down through ages. That implies that we are not looking at things that were made up. So idk 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

 

Wow wow wow..... I must say now I am happy that by the time I saw it the first time Kickstarter was already over and the decks she had were gone very quickly.... that is not ok in my opinion.... like all those other things you find @Raggydoll

[gregory]

I never saw it on KS - I bought it from etsy. I'me now confused about how many copies there may have been, and so on. Given the use of famous faces all over it, I can't see it ever going mass market - which is probably just as well.

[fire cat pickles]

"Bonestone and Earthflesh" always sounded a little creepy and cannibalistic to me from the start, and was a huge turn off. Little did I know how prophetic that would turn out to be.

Edited October 13, 2020 by fire cat pickles

[Raggydoll]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

I never saw it on KS - I bought it from etsy. I'me now confused about how many copies there may have been, and so on. Given the use of famous faces all over it, I can't see it ever going mass market - which is probably just as well.

It hasn’t been on Kickstarter, I think she just meant Etsy ! 

[Raggydoll]

6 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

"Bonestone and Earthflesh" always sounded a little creepy and cannibalistic to me from the start, and was a huge turn off. Little did I know how prophetic that would turn out to be.

Let’s not exaggerate 

 

 

 

[gregory]

Actually I wasn't wild about the word Earthflesh, even though I "got" it,

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Actually I wasn't wild about the word Earthflesh, even though I "got" it,

Yeah. It is representative of an animistic worldview and in that sense it works. I don't mind it. And in comparison to the talk you hear in churches during communion.. drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Christ.. well...  😁 (To be clear, I am not bothered by that either! Having a background in the field of heath and medicine sort of cures all squeamishness. I think you know what I mean!) 

[gregory]

I'm not remotely squeamish. I LOVE watching gruesome surgery etc, and am often told off for unsuitable convos while we are eating.

 

It's actually the sound of the word.

[fire cat pickles]

5 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Yeah. It is representative of an animistic worldview and in that sense it works. I don't mind it. And in comparison to the talk you hear in churches during communion.. drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Christ.. well...  😁 (To be clear, I am not bothered by that either! Having a background in the field of heath and medicine sort of cures all squeamishness. I think you know what I mean!) 

Touche

[FindYourSovereignty]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

I'm not remotely squeamish. I LOVE watching gruesome surgery etc, and am often told off for unsuitable convos while we are eating.

 

It's actually the sound of the word.

 

I don't like anything gruesome tbh, but it is the sound of the word that doesn't really sit well with me. I would have been just as interested in the deck if it was called the Bonestone Tarot. 

 

My deck arrived yesterday and I haven't removed it from the wrap. The box arrived safely as far as the shipping so that is a plus - if there is any concern at all it would only be with the manufacturing. I took lots of photos just in case I needed to prove that, but I am feeling confident everything is fine.

 

 

[Decan]

I had a look at the very first posts (almost exactly 3 years ago since the very first was posted on october 20 2017), and well... what happened to what looked like a beautiful journey at its initial stages?...

Actually 3 years is a long time to build upon so that everything goes smoothly, but it's not what took place finally; sad or disappointing but from what I read on the thread not everything is a mess if we look at the glass as half full.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Decan

[gregory]

That's why I continue to see the art work of the deck as beautiful - if one can avert the eyes at the serious issues. Just as I can still use other decks I already own showing First Nation people drumming like Africans, the decks that show Stonehenge as being all about druids and the rest. (the 3 wands is a real toughie, though.)

 

But still, the "background" is so very iffy that it needs to be brought into the light, if only as a warning to other creators who might equally thoughtlessly include things totally out of culture and out of context, as well as racial stereotypes which are known slurs, It's offensive and culturally appropriative (if that wasn't a word before, it is now.) Most of the things that trouble me most are in the book. - and in the bash sessions...

[Weatherwax]

I received my copy of the Bonestone as well and I can say it's gorgeous. It's one of the most beautiful decks I have. I'm sad to read these posts about cultural appropriation. 😕 I didn't notice that at first, but I have only done 1 or 2 readings with this deck. But...this just makes me lose respect for Avalon, how clueless and out of touch can she be?

 

I really didn't like the toxicity of the Bonestone forum and left it a while back to cleanse myself. People on both sides were toxic, but Avalon really stoked the fires tbh. I didn't like how she handled things.

 

That binding spell she put in the guidebook made me mad. I tore that page out of the guidebook and ritually burned it, and told my spirits to banish any other invisible spellwork that Avalon might have done on the Bonestone. The fact that Avalon tried to bind her customers tells me that maybe all the criticism about her is actually spot-on.

 

With the binding spell torn out and the both the guidebook and deck ritually cleansed by my spirits, the Bonestone feels really good now. It reads well and the art IS powerful...which is why it's a shame that the images are actually unethical. Ugh.

 

 

[Raggydoll]

Yes I agree that it is important to be fair and to give a balanced perspective of this. So I will try to do just that, and in doing so I hope to answer the question why I still think this deck (for me) is worth trying to work with and why there are things I am (still!) thankful to Avalon for. Because there are! Things are not black or white for me and I can see why people on both sides feel the way they do. I followed Avalon/Karen on youtube for a long time, and for a while I was even part of her patreon. And contrary to popular belief, her patreon content is not dominated by personal video rants. Or at least it wasn't. I don't know what it is like now but I imagine it has stayed fairly the same. She puts out resources on magic and witchcraft and she shares her personal perspective, as someone part of an ancenstral magical practice. Some of the topics that she has brought up has meant a lot to me. Like her thoughts clutter and metaphysical maintenance. (I won't go into detail because its content for paid subscribers but she basically talks about how a cluttered or dirty environment can't be fixed with a wiff of sage smoke. And that things do effect one another greatly). Then there are her experiences on hereditary witchcraft, and how it was difficult for her when she moved from Brazil to Australia and she did not have access to her community or to the ingredients and the tools that she used to have. So she ended up in Wiccan circles for a long time and then eventually found that she truly yearned for her roots and to reclaim them, while still retaining some of the new things that she had discovered along the way. This really resonated with me because of my own upbringing and the struggles I have found to navigate my way back to a family tradition while still being the eclectic person I am. So I AM thankful to her for that and I do have respect for her. I don't think she deserve people telling her that they wish her children were dead. That's just horrible. At the same time, I recognize that she is a person and that there are going to be things I don't resonate with and behaviors that I don't like or condone. I do not like the fact that due to a small number of mean people, everyone else who wanted to raise valid concern were labeled as bullies. I do not like that the fans of Avalon was allowed to jump on people for asking a normal, polite question. The bonestone page should have been way better monitored and once it truly spiraled, I feel it should have been shut down. I have had personal interactions with Avalon, both as a customer and as one of her patreons. She has always been nice and replied back to me very quickly. And even when I have pointed out things (like how she accidentally leaked the email addresses) she has apologized and taken on the critique well. These are MY experiences. I have seen several examples of situations where the conversation took a completely different turn, and I am not denying that any of that took place. Clearly it did. I do not like the way that they guidebook has a slur for romani people, and I think it was very problematic that they depicted a black woman with a slab of watermelon - even though it was meant to be Yemanja and that watermelon is a perfectly traditional offering. It doesn't matter, they should have gone with another fruit. I also don't like that myths and cultural stories have been treated in such a flippant way. I would have liked to see references and and I think it is very unfortunate that the guidebook doesn't state any of that extra information, like how they invented a bonestone tribe. It would have been very easy for them to use that name in the story. Anyone would have known (or been able to google to learn) that it was a fictional tribe that way. I also think its problematic that they depicted those people and used words in such a way that it implied a first nation spirituality. I don't think googling something is sufficient in this context. More research should have been done. I personally don't have much of an opinion in regards to how they used celebrities for some of the images (whether intentionally or not, though Gandalf was apparently intentional, as stated in one Bonestone bash). Of course it is problematic if you knowingly disregard copyright laws with the reasoning that you are only going to self publish. That won't hold up anywhere. But I don't personally get offended and I do think it works with a Gandalf looking gentleman as magician and the Damon-lookalike as Dionysos. The only celebrity that I sort of objected to was Naomi Campbell, because of the context. Her history of aussaulting people (she's been convicted for assault on four occasions) didn't really mesh with my views of the Queen of Cups. And that's the downside of using famous faces. Those of us who recognize them will have extra connotations when we look at those cards. It could enhance the card but it could also limit it or corrupt its meanings. I tend to not buy decks that has celebrities in them, and I also try to avoid decks that has a depiction of the creator in it, for that same reason. In this deck we have both those things. Plus other issues as well. But I am still not going to throw it to the side. I want to explore it and use it for readings for myself. And once I have worked with it for a while, I will form my opinion. For now, I am going to allow things to be 60 shades of grey 🙃

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Decan said:

I had a look at the very first posts (almost exactly 3 years ago since the very first was posted on october 20 2017), and well... what happened to what looked like a beautiful journey at its initial stages?...

Actually 3 years is a long time to build upon so that everything goes smoothly, but it's not what took place finally; sad or disappointing but from what I read on the thread not everything is a mess if we look at the glass as half full.

I don't know how long the actual deck creation took. It certainly didn't take three years. The impression I get is of the completed deck stuck in limbo while Avalon cooked up excuses.

It would have been better if they actually HAD taken three years and researched. Ten years would have been better, IMHO, considering some of the errors and insensitivity in this deck.

The purpose of doing a diverse deck should be because you want to include people, you care about them. If you don't care about them, it's better not to depict them.