Jump to content

Bonestone and Earthflesh Tarot


RavenOfSummer

Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, katrinka said:


I don't know how long the actual deck creation took. It certainly didn't take three years. The impression I get is of the completed deck stuck in limbo while Avalon cooked up excuses.

It would have been better if they actually HAD taken three years and researched. Ten years would have been better, IMHO, considering some of the errors and insensitivity in this deck.

The purpose of doing a diverse deck should be because you want to include people, you care about them. If you don't care about them, it's better not to depict them.

I believe it took Ana around 10 days to complete each card, so roughly 18 months for that bit. The guidebook was not written simultaneously and I am unsure how long Avalon spent on it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I do not like that the fans of Avalon was allowed to jump on people for asking a normal, polite question. The bonestone page should have been way better monitored and once it truly spiraled, I feel it should have been shut down. I have had personal interactions with Avalon, both as a customer and as one of her patreons. She has always been nice and replied back to me very quickly.

This is true, actually. I wasn't a part of the group; I did blast her with PMs on etsy and she was polite - and always answered within hours. (She didn't address the fact that she wasn't informing people properly - my main complaint at the time.)

 

Quote

I do not like the way that they guidebook has a slur for romani people, and I think it was very problematic that they depicted a black woman with a slab of watermelon - even though it was meant to be Yemanja and that watermelon is a perfectly traditional offering. It doesn't matter, they should have gone with another fruit. I also don't like that myths and cultural stories have been treated in such a flippant way. I would have liked to see references and and I think it is very unfortunate that the guidebook doesn't state any of that extra information, like how they invented a bonestone tribe. It would have been very easy for them to use that name in the story. Anyone would have known (or been able to google to learn) that it was a fictional tribe that way. I also think its problematic that they depicted those people and used words in such a way that it implied a first nation spirituality.

 

All this, Simply naming a tribe which was then clearly fictional would have done it. Even that 3 would have worked if they'd done that, and made it CLEAR how fictional it was. (though they should have made up their own runes, I think.) 

 

Quote

The only celebrity that I sort of objected to was Naomi Campbell, because of the context. Her history of aussaulting people (she's been convicted for assault on four occasions) didn't really mesh with my views of the Queen of Cups. And that's the downside of using famous faces. Those of us who recognize them will have extra connotations when we look at those cards. It could enhance the card but it could also limit it or corrupt its meanings. I tend to not buy decks that has celebrities in them, and I also try to avoid decks that has a depiction of the creator in it, for that same reason. In this deck we have both those things. Plus other issues as well. But I am still not going to throw it to the side. I want to explore it and use it for readings for myself. And once I have worked with it for a while, I will form my opinion. For now, I am going to allow things to be 60 shades of grey 🙃

 

I am OK with using celebs up to a point (think Cosmic, to name but one.) But that's a VERY good point about Naomi - I wish you hadn't mentioned it, as I care so little about fashion that I would otherwise never have known ! And of course there remains the risk that someone in there - even Gandalf - well, what if Ian McK suddenly turns out to be a serial murder - where does that leave a deck using him as a nice old chap ? VERY risky.

18 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The purpose of doing a diverse deck should be because you want to include people, you care about them. If you don't care about them, it's better not to depict them.

Yeah. That too. But again - what if the person you care about today turns out to be a real dickhead next week...

 

1 minute ago, Raggydoll said:

I believe it took Ana around 10 days to complete each card, so roughly 18 months for that bit. The guidebook was not written simultaneously and I am unsure how long Avalon spent on it. 

 

 And that's after any time they spent deciding what to put on the card in the first place,

Edited by gregory
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I want to explore it and use it for readings for myself. And once I have worked with it for a while, I will form my opinion. For now, I am going to allow things to be 60 shades of grey 🙃

 

Keep us posted, it will be interesting.
I personally wouldn't be able to read with it. I can see attitudes in this deck, old attitudes that should have been rejected centuries ago, that led to things like lynchings and massacres and are still doing untold damage. I'm not saying using the deck will convert you to that kind of thinking - I know you too well for that.  Only that I wouldn't be able to use it. It feels wrong to me, and kind of evil, in an unconscious kind of way. YMMV - I'm in Texas and the landscape is dotted with "hanging trees" that were once used for lynchings, when I was young there were old people I knew who still remembered seeing these things and told me the stories. They were often public events, everybody packed a lunch and went to see the lynching, they brought the kids.

Things like that start with attitudes, that it doesn't matter what POC want, or what they say. Then there's a group consensus that POC aren't really people and the killing begins. And I'm not saying this deck will make people kill anyone either, only that looking at the images gives me a sense of revulsion, even though the art is pretty. I couldn't possibly use it.

In Sweden you don't have that history, so it may be different for you. You may be able to detach from it.
I can't.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, gregory said:

This is true, actually. I wasn't a part of the group; I did blast her with PMs on etsy and she was polite - and always answered within hours. (She didn't address the fact that she wasn't informing people properly - my main complaint at the time.)

Yes. I agree on both those things. 

 

15 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

 

All this, Simply naming a tribe which was then clearly fictional would have done it. Even that 3 would have worked if they'd done that, and made it CLEAR how fictional it was. (though they should have made up their own runes, I think.) 

Yes. I think they could have even done some made up sigills or magical symbols. Whatever. It could have worked. And perhaps stayed away from the word totem. 

 

15 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

 

I am OK with using celebs up to a point (think Cosmic, to name but one.) But that's a VERY good point about Naomi - I wish you hadn't mentioned it, as I care so little about fashion that I would otherwise never have known ! And of course there remains the risk that someone in there - even Gandalf - well, what if Ian McK suddenly turns out to be a serial murder - where does that leave a deck using him as a nice old chap ? VERY risky.

Yeah. That too. But again - what if the person you care about today turns out to be a real dickhead next week...

I totally shouldn't have mentioned that because this will likely turn into one of those "this member ruined that card for me" thing or "I can't unsee Damon in that card" etc 🤣 

 

---

 

Aside from what I previously stated I do have one thing to add. Just because I view this as a complicated situation and I don't think its all black and white, that does of course not mean that I think everyone else must feel that way. I am just sharing my thoughts on it and I am definitely coming from a special angle due to all the things I previously mentioned. I don't blame anyone who feels like they can't work with the deck, or those that feel that they have found a soul deck. You get to feel whatever you feel. And it is okay to feel more than one thing at the same time. Really. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, gregory said:

Yeah. That too. But again - what if the person you care about today turns out to be a real dickhead next week...

 

 

Or they die an absurd death like David Carradine.

The Cosmic works because most of the celebs were deceased already. Of the living ones, Tom Cruise turned out to be a huge disappointment, but the card doesn't really look like him anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

Keep us posted, it will be interesting.
I personally wouldn't be able to read with it. I can see attitudes in this deck, old attitudes that should have been rejected centuries ago, that led to things like lynchings and massacres and are still doing untold damage. I'm not saying using the deck will convert you to that kind of thinking - I know you too well for that.  Only that I wouldn't be able to use it. It feels wrong to me, and kind of evil, in an unconscious kind of way. YMMV - I'm in Texas and the landscape is dotted with "hanging trees" that were once used for lynchings, when I was young there were old people I knew who still remembered seeing these things and told me the stories. They were often public events, everybody packed a lunch and went to see the lynching, they brought the kids.

Things like that start with attitudes, that it doesn't matter what POC want, or what they say. Then there's a group consensus that POC aren't really people and the killing begins. And I'm not saying this deck will make people kill anyone either, only that looking at the images gives me a sense of revulsion, even though the art is pretty. I couldn't possibly use it.

I don't even know what to say. I can't imagine. Its beyond words. 

 

10 minutes ago, katrinka said:

In Sweden you don't have that history, so it may be different for you. You may be able to detach from it.

I can't.

Maybe. Time will tell. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

Or they die an absurd death like David Carradine.

The Cosmic works because most of the celebs were deceased already. Of the living ones, Tom Cruise turned out to be a huge disappointment, but the card doesn't really look like him anyway.

There is one deck that has a card that looks like Robin Williams in it. It makes me sad to look at and it reminds me of someone in my family that met a similar fate as him. I have stayed away from that deck because of it. I don't think I shall name the deck because I don't want to ruin anymore cards for people. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I vaguely remember discussion of that - it was sad, as it was a TOTAL coincidence. There's one that has an image that looks like Peter Pan in Once Upon  A Time, which bothers me, as there Pan was a REALLY nasty bit of work. But again - it was a coincidence.... (not to mention I forget which deck it was, which is good !)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gregory said:

I vaguely remember discussion of that - it was sad, as it was a TOTAL coincidence. There's one that has an image that looks like Peter Pan in Once Upon  A Time, which bothers me, as there Pan was a REALLY nasty bit of work. But again - it was a coincidence.... (not to mention I forget which deck it was, which is good !)

Yeah. With the Bonestone I don't really know what was intentional other than the Gandalf card. On the bonestone bash for that card Ana says, as she is revealing the final card "And yes, he looks like Gandalf. We were aiming for that". I haven't seen all the bashes so maybe some other celebrity is mentioned. Or it is coincidental. 

 

Jerry Seinfeld Reaction GIF

Link to post
Share on other sites

Musings from “scruffy little myself" ( who does NOT have the deck or book!!) about the 3 of Wands:

 

Many of you know, that mediating and bridge building are what I do in my work as a Medicine Person in my community and in Ontario.

So I would like to tell you about our annual Pow Wow in the Uni campus in Barrie on a Saturday in mid March. Many first Nations come from far and wide to attend.

As we are talking mid March it often falls on St Patrick's day.

There is quite a contingent of First Nations dancers, that are of mixed ancestry. Ojibway and Irish!??!!

Which of the happening should they celebrate?

Well, both of course! NA cherish inclusivity, when it is practices right and respectful.

So you get to see young and older dancers in full regalia – of green and white, clover leaves and all, even Turkey feathers dyed bright green.....

 

 

Yes, and sure enough we also do have quite a contingency of dancers, vendors and participants who have African American ancestors as well as quite a few who do have Afro- Brazilian ancestors, or – like a friend of mine, who is Ojibway and Aimara from Bolivia.......

 

So, to the 3 of wands:

Maybe to imagine this can help:

The year is 2020. a group of friends , all with part NA ancestry are getting together to affirm, who they are in this world today.

The one is maybe Cherokee and African American from West Africa and to honour his great grandma, who was dragged over here, he learned to play the djembe' and a few West African rhythms. He is playing one here, the Kakilambe' which honours the Spirit of the Forest, that comes forth at the times of initiations to test the courage of the initiate.....

His friend is indeed getting a very personal initiation, something he really wanted to have, he had a Medicine Dream about it...... He has a complicated relationship with the concept of ancestors: His are Afro Brazilian and indigenous from south of Manaus on dad's side and his mom is part Ojibway and part German and Danish, coming from one of the many immigrant families, that scraped a little farm out of the Ontario Wilderness in the summer and laboured in one of the many logging camps during the winter months.

He IS a dancer – will go again to the the Barrie Pow Wow next March – (ifff it does not get cancelled due to Covid...)

He is learning from his grandpa, a 60 scoop survivor, a few words of Ojibway, but since he is not a Pure Blood, the Elders are reluctant to teach him - and his friends more......

He had this dream about these strange symbols – and found out, that they are runes....... Part of his heritage...

 

So here they are now, with his older brother, a med student wielding a nasty large knife – ready to bring the Dream/ vision into reality on his body, asking forgiveness to the Tree Spirits, that his grandpa has had to cut down for the white log baron Booth, breathing through the cutting pain of “not really BELONGING” - and thereby letting it go – into the Kakilambe rhythm and chant, into the Spirit world, so he can become himself.......

 

 

3 friends – helping each other out, through the pain and uncertainty of – today's world

3 Ways to access Spirit

3ways woven together – due to a NEW REALITY

 

Edited by Mi-Shell
Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, ilweran said:

@Mi-Shell that was beautiful and has inspired me to look at my heritage as I have never looked into Belgian folktales etc and it just struck me how little I know.

Let me know if you’d like any pointers - I have Belgian heritage too. :classic_smile:

 

@Mi-Shell that was really beautifully written. Much food for thought on how we combine all those diverse elements which make up our heritage. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
FindYourSovereignty

This conversation has been very enlightening across the board. I really appreciate this opportunity to learn from each of you. I have decided to release the deck. I know I am not going to feel comfortable reading with it and, well, tbh, there are just so many amazing decks out there that I do want to use. What a ride this one has been! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
moderngypsy
23 hours ago, Mi-Shell said:

Musings from “scruffy little myself" ( who does NOT have the deck or book!!) about the 3 of Wands:

 

Many of you know, that mediating and bridge building are what I do in my work as a Medicine Person in my community and in Ontario.

So I would like to tell you about our annual Pow Wow in the Uni campus in Barrie on a Saturday in mid March. Many first Nations come from far and wide to attend.

As we are talking mid March it often falls on St Patrick's day.

There is quite a contingent of First Nations dancers, that are of mixed ancestry. Ojibway and Irish!??!!

Which of the happening should they celebrate?

Well, both of course! NA cherish inclusivity, when it is practices right and respectful.

So you get to see young and older dancers in full regalia – of green and white, clover leaves and all, even Turkey feathers dyed bright green.....

 

 

Yes, and sure enough we also do have quite a contingency of dancers, vendors and participants who have African American ancestors as well as quite a few who do have Afro- Brazilian ancestors, or – like a friend of mine, who is Ojibway and Aimara from Bolivia.......

 

So, to the 3 of wands:

Maybe to imagine this can help:

The year is 2020. a group of friends , all with part NA ancestry are getting together to affirm, who they are in this world today.

The one is maybe Cherokee and African American from West Africa and to honour his great grandma, who was dragged over here, he learned to play the djembe' and a few West African rhythms. He is playing one here, the Kakilambe' which honours the Spirit of the Forest, that comes forth at the times of initiations to test the courage of the initiate.....

His friend is indeed getting a very personal initiation, something he really wanted to have, he had a Medicine Dream about it...... He has a complicated relationship with the concept of ancestors: His are Afro Brazilian and indigenous from south of Manaus on dad's side and his mom is part Ojibway and part German and Danish, coming from one of the many immigrant families, that scraped a little farm out of the Ontario Wilderness in the summer and laboured in one of the many logging camps during the winter months.

He IS a dancer – will go again to the the Barrie Pow Wow next March – (ifff it does not get cancelled due to Covid...)

He is learning from his grandpa, a 60 scoop survivor, a few words of Ojibway, but since he is not a Pure Blood, the Elders are reluctant to teach him - and his friends more......

He had this dream about these strange symbols – and found out, that they are runes....... Part of his heritage...

 

So here they are now, with his older brother, a med student wielding a nasty large knife – ready to bring the Dream/ vision into reality on his body, asking forgiveness to the Tree Spirits, that his grandpa has had to cut down for the white log baron Booth, breathing through the cutting pain of “not really BELONGING” - and thereby letting it go – into the Kakilambe rhythm and chant, into the Spirit world, so he can become himself.......

 

 

3 friends – helping each other out, through the pain and uncertainty of – today's world

3 Ways to access Spirit

3ways woven together – due to a NEW REALITY

 

This is such a beautiful and powerful way of looking at this card! I’ve been reading through the thread, and I would have just kept my thoughts about all of this to myself, because, well, they’re very different, and are coloured by own Indian culture and worldview, which is quite different in many ways from a white/western view. But I just wanted to say thank you for this, because you just put so beautifully into words something that I was thinking/sensing when looking at this card.
 

I don’t know how much thought went into creating the cards or writing the book - I was drawn by the imagery and I’ve been finding a lot of layers to the cards - looking at them through my own lens. I haven’t read through the guidebook properly yet - though I did help to proof read it last year or the year before?

 

i do respect Avalon and I don’t think she would have been purposely disrespectful when writing the guidebooks or creating the stories. I think it’s also quite evident that the Bonestone is a made up tribe, but I appreciate that people may wonder where the legends are coming from. Like I said, I haven’t read the guidebook yet, and I don’t remember it from when I helped with the proof reading.
 

I do think that we tend to expect some sort of perfection from creators and it can be difficult - partly because some things that are “hot button issues” in one part of the world are completely unknown in another. (For example, I had no idea about African Americans and watermelons, and I wouldn’t have even known to check! Yemaya (sp?) is one of Avalon’s Odisha (I was in her coven for a while), so I think she put the watermelon there from a place of reverence. But again, how would I - or any of us - really know what someone else’s intentions are?

 

Anyway, I just wanted to thank @Mi-Shellfor that beautiful telling and I went off into a bit of a ramble of my own. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not only about intentions though. We also need to be acutely aware of the things that upset others. I'd love to use the old Hindu peace symbol, but I won't - even though it's been around in all sorts of cultures since at least the 9th century: this one's in Denmark:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snoldelev_Stone

 

Snoldelevsunwheel.jpg

 

Because it is now something that means very different things to different people. I would not be intending to use it as a Nazi symbol - but no matter what disclaimer I add - that is how it will be seen, whatever I do.

 

The same applies to things like the watermelon. They should have checked on this stuff. SOMEONE in that group would have known.

 

I'm surprised to see MiShell defending the djembe style drumming, which she has blasted when it was shown in other decks....

Link to post
Share on other sites

What gregory said. At one time there would have been nothing wrong with portraying Black people with watermelons, or drawing swastikas, but these images have been contaminated by hate.

As for the G word, there may well be a few who claim not to object, and a google search for "gypsy halloween costume" will turn up over 13 million (!) results. So it must be OK, right? NO. It isn't:

"Why is there so little acknowledgement and understanding around the slur’s history? The answer is twofold: First, Roma are still not adequately represented in the UN and human rights organizations because we do not have a nation; second, many countries—including Greece, Italy, France, Hungary, Romania, and many others—still sanction the persecution of Roma through employment, housing, and education discrimination; ghettoization, police brutality, and political campaigns that insult violence against Roma."

Source: https://www.bitchmedia.org/article/gypsy-slur-netlflix

The whole article is seriously worth reading.

 

Edited by katrinka
Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly, katrinka. It is simply not OK for  you or me to go around calling people gypsies. Call them Roma in the countries that applies; call them Romany in the UK - according to one whose book I just read. But to call them gypsies is almost (I agree, not quite) as bad as using the N word.

 

And sorry - visions are all very well - but it doesn't make it OK to imply that actual First Nation people brand one another with Scandinavian runes. I have dreamed some pretty weird cross cultural things in my time - but I would not put them out in public. It would make for nonsense.

 

This deck should have been designed and described in the same way as the Cat People -making it clear that this is about a completely fictional tribe with its own rituals, legends and sigils - not ones borrowed from real life. That is so very disrespectful. And known slurs could so easily have been avoided.

 

It's a shame - it's so lovely to look at.

 

 

Edited by gregory
GEEZ how does my PC manage to autocorrect into nonsense
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/16/2020 at 3:01 PM, gregory said:

 

This deck should have been designed and described in the same way as the Cat People -making it clear that this is about a completely fictional tribe with its own rituals, legends and sigils - not ones borrowed from real life. That is so very disrespectful. And known slurs could so easily have been avoided.

 

It's a shame - it's so lovely to look at.

 

 

 

Exactly this Gregory.   I avoid deck threads like the plague, and I ignored all the drama that went on about this deck after I ordered it so long ago (I think I ordered it a few days after it was put up.)  There are so many lovely images, but the deck is spoiled for me by disrespectful ones. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm gonna drop in here with my moderators hat on...

 

It is indeed useful to discuss this deck and the imagery chosen but can we make sure that we keep this thread more on topic please and stick to discussing what is in the deck. 🙂

 

And while I'm here, to ensure this conversation continues in a well mannered way - racism is a difficult topic to discuss so please remember to respect each other and not go off on a rant when something is particularly close to your heart.

 

(And remember that if any posts worry, upset or offend you then you can report them to quickly bring them to the attention of the moderator team, or drop an PM to a staff member.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't even know how I would read with something like this. I think the cognitive dissonance and general revulsion would be too much for anything approaching a productive reading, at least for me.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.