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Kipperkarten Studies


timtoldrum

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katrinka
5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Mainly, the stop-cards (to me at this point) seem to be cards that offer no further pictorial indicators for further elaboration. There are similar techniques in cartomancy — closing lines, the Aces, chaining, the Coffin and the Garden, et cetera.  

Yes, on that level they make sense. But in practice, at least for me, they're unworkable.

BTW, she's apparently trademarked her method. You can't put a trademark on a tradition, that would be like putting one on Easter egg hunts, or brides wearing white. If we didn't already have proof positive that it's her intellectual property, and not "The True Bavarian Method", we do now:

 

Capture.thumb.JPG.31f39cb9b254e58709353e697b748f89.JPG

https://www.cardgeek.co.uk/post/kipper-cards-where-to-start

 

None of this is intended as a diss, or throwing down the gauntlet. And I do encourage newcomers to get her book. It has issues, but a LOT of worthwhile books have issues.

 

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

 

I did wonder how one is supposed to track the False Person, et cetera. It will be one card to monitor I think. 

She says that the False Person is not a person card. https://www.cardgeek.co.uk/post/kipper-card-meanings

My issue with that is that sometimes it IS. We all have such people in our lives sometimes.

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Of course, one does not know the primary sources consulted by Toni.

True, and she's not telling. She only cites "Bavarian readers".

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

It's the same with GoH "method." I've never found the information to indicate the game was played as divinatory oracle vis-à-vis gyan chaupar. The fortune-telling reference is as an aside that the cards can be used as playing cards.

I think we'll be seeing a trademark on that "method", too. 😉

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

That said, it's clear whoever created them, knew the cartomantic suit conventions — which again indicates more of sibilla in terms of fortune-telling.

Yes.

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

(On a side note, I did read with interest that Toni is credited with first explaining the association between virtue and happiness in the early modern period to clarify  the Lily). 

It's implied in the PL sheet.

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Leiding is good — very clear and concise, which is extremely helpful when you are not fluent. The two books are very slim volumes, both less than 100 pages. What I have found extremely helpful is that each card is described on whether it is above, below, behind or before the MP. 

For example, Good Lady behind the MP2 can indicate that the mother has the daughter’s back. So the inauspicious nuances do not have to be default. Below, the mother thinks of the daughter (reversed if above).

Yes, and the latter doesn't necessarily mean the daughter disrespects the mother, either, as is sometimes the case with people cards one above the other. None of this stuff is intended to be default.

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Lol.  If we ever get to Elphame, one does suspects more than a few surprised faces... 

😄

 

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timtoldrum
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes, on that level they make sense. But in practice, at least for me, they're unworkable.
 

That is how I feel; I can see them as emphasis, but little else. 
 

Quote

 

BTW, she's apparently trademarked her method. You can't put a trademark on a tradition, that would be like putting one on Easter egg hunts, or brides wearing white. If we didn't already have proof positive that it's her intellectual property, and not "The True Bavarian Method", we do now:

 

Capture.thumb.JPG.31f39cb9b254e58709353e697b748f89.JPG

https://www.cardgeek.co.uk/post/kipper-cards-where-to-start

 

 

That is interesting; if not rather disappointing. 
 

Quote

None of this is intended as a diss, or throwing down the gauntlet. And I do encourage newcomers to get her book. It has issues, but a LOT of worthwhile books have issues.

No; the book is fine and a worthwhile read. My disconnect is documented. But it is a book to read and I’ve taken stuff from it. 
 

Quote

 

She says that the False Person is not a person card. https://www.cardgeek.co.uk/post/kipper-card-meanings

My issue with that is that sometimes it IS. We all have such people in our lives sometimes.

 

I’ve never understood that. I understand the warning on gender, which can see it contrasted and paired with Theft (male). But not to rule out a person completely. 
 

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It's implied in the PL sheet.

Yes. I discussed it years ago, even referencing early modern theological texts and ballads, etc. On the Cartomantes’ Cabinet I said the Lily below can be seen as trampled on, etc. It’s amusing. But 

 

Quote

Yes, and the latter doesn't necessarily mean the daughter disrespects the mother, either, as is sometimes the case with people cards one above the other. None of this stuff is intended to be default.

Yes. Leiding is very clear and neutral. However what is presented is extremely fluid and flexible. 

Edited by leroidetrèfle
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timtoldrum
Posted (edited)

The aforementioned Hildegard Leiding text is divided into two slim volumes. To preserve Leiding’s copyright, one cannot post beyond the following. These are from a Book I. 
 

 

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The section below focuses on cards’ orientation to the MP. The four points are, of course, the basis for the Cross/MC Spread.


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The Good Lord and Good Lady described in relation to the MP.

 

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Combinations.

 

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The information on the große tafel.

 

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Edited by leroidetrèfle
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