The Bohemian Cards (Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten)

[Decan]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:15 PM, katrinka said:

There's a more recent addition to that deck category, the Little Czech. Not Piatnik, but good stock and it reads well. https://baba-store.com/products/little-czech-oracle-deck

I decided to translate the LWB for this one. Until now I didn't do it because Czech language looks so impenetrable and mysterious for me, but typing all the letters patienly (even without the accents) in Google translate there is a result, and whilst I will still need some time to understand everything, the LWB looks very interesting!

[katrinka]

You're a more patient soul than I.
Czech is DAUNTING to type! How long did it take you?

[Decan]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

You're a more patient soul than I.
Czech is DAUNTING to type! How long did it take you?

Patient or crazy, Lol

Actually I just began (so just a few pages)! 😂

And after Czech I will type the part in Slovak (to compare the 2 translations).

Edited May 22, 2020 by Decan

[Decan]

I updated my second post for the meanings of the cards (I found better explanations -than the previous video- for the basic meanings of the cards on YouTube), and ordered the deck below. I think that it will come with a LWB, so I am interested in the cards and in the LWB here.

 

I'm still translating the Little Czech LWB (I do this step by step when I have a moment), and it's not that easy at all for something precise, but I'll probably achieve that (my stubborn side)! Actually the good question is when?? 🙂

 

On 5/17/2020 at 1:05 PM, reall said:

Cigany Kartya /GYPSY CARD Hungarian Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards by Kvíz (blue box with lady!:) look like less quality version of Piatnik  deck above

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Decan

[reall]

Ok, Happy to Share Good News for Everyone interested to learn more about this deck & looking forward to Baba studio edt!:)

 

I got email reply from Vesna one of authors of Gypsy Cards in a New Light imo Best & most complete book on this topic you'll ever find as it covers around 400pages & looks beautiful with hard cover & illustrations (find youtube review here:

 

& she is selling this book both printed edt & pdf English language edt via her fb but there is issue with payment (no PayPal, WU super expensive etc) & shipping issue for printed book etc, 

so i urged her to get a PayPal if possible & will email Baba studio to ask if they would be interested to resell this book?:)

 

& my country have better option for sending money to Serbia so I'll see if this option actually work tomorrow & get myself this pdf!:) *fingerscrossed*

I also asked if author would be interested in Print on Demand & she say yes!:) as imo 400pages is Big Book You Will Need to print it anyway!:)

so once I have my pdf I will try to figure best place for Book print on demand?:) so you can order legit printed copy for yourself & support this author!:)

of course it would be Best if we can talk Baba studio to step in here as reseller like they did with that little Chez Oracle so you can get your book & deck at once from same place!:)

(& I spare myself extra work of *preparing for printer files!;)

 

will update soon!:)

All Best!

Irena

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by reall

[Decan]

These are great news! Thanks for sharing this with us @reall 🍀

[katrinka]

I have that one. I got it from Zel back in 2012 or 2013.
How is Zel? He seems to have dropped out of sight...😟

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

Hi,

We were contacted about this so I'm here just to sort out any possible confusion. 🙂

The Little Czech Oracle is sold with its own LWB (as I see you know). This is in Czech but can be translated fairly well using something like Google Translate. We don't translate ourselves (eg to include with the deck when we sell it) because we don't want to breach copyright.

The cards we are making use a similar pattern to The Little Czech Oracle, but not exactly the same. So they are a quite separate deck. 

Our cards are also not exactly the same as the Piatnik "Gypsy cards". As I will be explaining in our companion book, these cards do have variation in them historically, (I've drawn up a table in the book so you can compare the various historic and modern decks, and also compare with Lenormand and Kipper). So a book written by someone about the Piatnik cards won't match our deck unfortunately.

 

However, as I say, we will be issuing our own companion book, which people have said they would like for our cards. We don't yet have a final title for our cards and I want to avoid calling them "gypsy cards" in any case. Nowadays the term is potentially offensive, and so we are considering other titles. I will also be explaining in the book how they came to be called, "gypsy cards". Ironically of course, they were not generally used by gypsies historically!

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Baba Studio - Bababarock

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

On 5/20/2020 at 6:47 AM, katrinka said:

People in Germany don't even use Kipper the way that Toni says.
There's a little directional stuff, sure, but I've never seen German readers and authors putting the heavy emphasis on it that Toni does.
Malkiel says he's never even heard of "stop cards". Nor have his colleagues - he asked. I've never seen Susanne Zitzl or Kersten Kolb doing any of that. Nor have I seen it on Waldfee.
It's not a Kipper thing, it's a Toni thing. And it's certainly nothing to do with eastern European fortune telling cards.

I don't want to comment on Toni's book, which I have. But what I will say is that our companion book isn't going to describe stop cards etc. For me, apart from authenticity (and I won't speak to that as I don't use Kippers really - I use the central/eastern European fortune-telling cards, similar but not the same) it seems to me - just my opinion and I respect others - is that it is complicating cards that were designed to be very simple. The whole point is that they can be learned and used quickly. Of course, the quality of a reading will always depend on the reader's skill and experience. But there really isn't a huge complicated system to these cards.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Baba Studio - Bababarock

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

and because I should show at least a bit of what we are doing... they aren't quite finished,  but give a good flavour. Also, following on from above, as you can see, these are easy to understand and don't need an extensive system or explanation.  However, in the book I'll discuss how you can read in tarot or Lenormand style with them if you want to. Personally, I usually just lay them down and - read. 🙂

Edited May 25, 2020 by Baba Studio - Bababarock

[reall]

7 hours ago, Decan said:

These are great news! Thanks for sharing this with us @reall 🍀

Happy to do so & you are welcome!:)

[reall]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

I have that one. I got it from Zel back in 2012 or 2013.
How is Zel? He seems to have dropped out of sight...😟

as far as I know he's ok started family life so no time for anything else!;) BTW katrinka as our Oracle expert feel free to share other books you recommend for this cards & what you would like to see from good guidebook?;)

[reall]

@Karen Thank You for post & clarification!:) please take your time to check links i posted here for other older German decks based on this system & let us know if you have decided number of cards your deck will include & will it be based on sibila as well & other updates you wish to share or you'll do that on other topic with appropriate name?:) also happy you decided to address popular name as it indeed don't have much in common with folks it become attributed & popularized!:)

& happy you are writing your own guidebook as we share same idea IT Should Be Simple!:) looking forward to your progress!:)

 

p.s luv your card design! crisp textures & rich background my fav!^^ lol

 

All Best!

Irena

Edited May 25, 2020 by reall

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

Sorry, Irena, I don't see the links. Please can you repost? We have decided to have 36 cards. This is not, to be honest, for any profound reason - and in fact, as you now, the oldest of this pattern of cards were usually 32 cards. But, we're artists and 36 cards gives us more room for expression, so... There are also many examples of these types of decks with 36 cards, so it's still traditional enough, but just gives slightly more possibilities.

Yes, Sibilla is important to mention too. But our cards are more our own version of the Central European "fortune-telling cards" (you see I am avoiding the dreaded "gypsy cards" 😉 ). There will be a lot of examples of decks in the books - for years we have been collecting and photographing. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Baba Studio - Bababarock

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, reall said:

as far as I know he's ok started family life so no time for anything else!;) BTW katrinka as our Oracle expert feel free to share other books you recommend for this cards & what you would like to see from good guidebook?;)

I'm glad Zel is OK.  He always seemed like a nice guy. I hope family life works out well for him!

I really haven't read anything else in english. There was a much anticipated book by someone named Esther Gombor a few years back, but people who got it (whose opinions I respect) said it wasn't very useful or well done. There may be others now, TBH I haven't been paying attention. When there's little or no material available in english, a lot of people these days are quick to take advantage of the fact and write a book, even if they have no idea what they're talking about. 😑

I think Karen's book will be excellent. That's the one to wait for.
 

6 hours ago, Baba Studio - Bababarock said:

For me, apart from authenticity (and I won't speak to that as I don't use Kippers really - I use the central/eastern European fortune-telling cards, similar but not the same) it seems to me - just my opinion and I respect others - is that it is complicating cards that were designed to be very simple.

Same here. Apparently people are using her method, and like the results, but I gave all of that a fair shot and it's not for me. I felt like I was being pushed around the board, and some of my story lines were being cut off before I could finish them.
None of that is intended to mean that people shouldn't get Toni's book. I've found it to be very useful in other ways.

6 hours ago, Baba Studio - Bababarock said:

The whole point is that they can be learned and used quickly. Of course, the quality of a reading will always depend on the reader's skill and experience. But there really isn't a huge complicated system to these cards.

Yes! When the cards first gained popularity, I don't think there were books about it, were there? Probably just a LWB/sheet detailing how to lay a tableau. People managed just fine on their own. The cards are pretty straightforward.

Looking at the sample images you posted (and they're gorgeous!) we've got Jealousy - Gossip - Lady - Lord - Sweetheart. Jealous people often do start rumors. And the people cards might tell you who's being gossiped about. Very simple!

 

[reall]

On 5/17/2020 at 1:38 PM, reall said:

wops here: https://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/austrian-cartomancy-decks

have short history of these cards & mentions German Hegenauer Aufschlagekarten 32, 36 & 52 card decks as some of earliest versions

 

& here you can see illustrations & short description for all 52 cards from Hegenauer “Aufschlagkarten” Fortune Telling Cards:

http://www.aufschlagkarten.de/hegenauer-einzelbedeutung.php

imp these looks oldest as there is no color only in later versions!:)

& what i find interesting is some of these cards looks like sibbila!:) example butterfly & cat card illustrations are imo unique to sibbila?:)

 

so imo while Lenormand 36 card deck is based on Franch playing cards & Kipper is German, and Sibila may be based on full Italian/Spanish playing card deck, these *Gypsy fortune telling cards with no numbers or playing card insertion may be East European version of Sibbila?:)

 

also what i find interesting is we have plenty of gypsies in my part of world (politically correct term is "Rom" meaning human!:) & we had regular fairs & circuses etc & local residents who used to fix umbrellas & bikes & sell wooden coutlary & other handcrafted items etc & all sorts of fortune telling was popular (from coffee ground being top!:) I don't remember Ever seeing gypsy woman telling fortune from cards?!:) what i do remember is they used to tell fortune from palms aka palm reading & it backs my theory cards were to fancy for them to use or spend money on & most likely (at least 1st mass printed edt!:) were printed in more advanced countries that had printing press at time & meant for *Ladies of Salons who could afford to spend money on card decks & had liberty to use playing cards?(France, Spain, Italy & maybe even Germany & uk are top suspect of origin of fortune telling cards at least in Europe!:) Tarot & other cards in India & Asia may have different origin!:)

 

that's all I have for now!:) there is also German deck I *discovered recently that looks much like cross between these Gypsy cards & Tarot  & may actually fit description of Original deck miss Lenormand used!:) will share more when ready!:)

@Karen it's this mentioned in my previous post!(: idk how to add spoiler!:) & got it 36 cards makes perfect sense!:) we know it's same deck just reinvented/ modernized illustrations with style!:)

 

@katrinka yes, family life is tricky but we all manage it eventually!:)

 

I'm just happy seeing renewed interest in these older *not so popular outside Europe deck & system?:)

imo Any Book is Worth reading as long as you actually take time to think about it & learn something new(even if you don't agree!:) can't help it i'm a bnookworm!:) & don't be to harsh writing a book require dedication & time and more work &  investment to actually get it printed & published not to mention it's legacy so imo Every Writer do it from the heart & their best knowledge & intentions, some are just better with words!:) I know I'm bad explaining things even in my own language people get annoyed with my *this & that All the time!x,x facepalm lol

Edited May 25, 2020 by reall

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

13 hours ago, reall said:

@Karen it's this mentioned in my previous post!(: idk how to add spoiler!:) & got it 36 cards makes perfect sense!:) we know it's same deck just reinvented/ modernized illustrations with style!:)

 

 

Thanks. Irena. I know WOPC well. However, to be pedantic (!) these are not all German decks - they are actually from the whole region, including (one of the ones I love most) what would now be in the Ukraine. I suppose we could broadly say Austro-Hungarian Empire.

 

13 hours ago, reall said:

don't be to harsh writing a book require dedication & time and more work &  investment to actually get it printed & published not to mention it's legacy so imo Every Writer do it from the heart & their best knowledge & intentions, some are just better with words!:) 

I'm sure your friend's book has a lot of value. The reason I said we wouldn't sell it with our deck is that it wouldn't match our card imagery - and our companion book will. I also feel that with a deck that we've been working on for years, there is a lot we can say about the background of these cards - so it will work well for our users, as they like to hear the artist/designer's voices in a companion book.

Personally, though I am happy to describe how to read the cards in various ways (and will do, in the book), my own advice would be to keep it simple, and this will be clearly stated in my writing. As I said above, I feel these cards were made to be simple, and the reason for their popularity in their own time was their sheer simplicity. You of course need to have a good ability to construct a narrative (rather as Katrinka describes above) and this takes time and practice to develop. But I don't think - my own experience - that you need a lot of complexity about directions, positioning and so on. However different people will read in their different ways, and that's great. One of the lovely things about card reading is that each reader develops their own style.

I agree, books are not easy to write and I respect anyone who does so. 🙂

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Baba Studio - Bababarock

[reall]

oh! yes, well spotted deck category! it fit perfectly!:) yes, I was speaking about writers & writing in general, anyone who ever tried to note something good on paper know how in practice it may not be so easy as it may seem at first glance!;) & I agree totally matching guidebook is best no confusion here as it's not same deck anyway just same *family?!:) also agree everyone(including me!;) have its own ways I find it interesting reading about it that's how we learn & discover what works best for us, after all it's not about the deck or system but *reader & gift we have(more or less & perfect with practice!:) looking forward to more updates & progress we make!;)

[katrinka]

21 hours ago, Baba Studio - Bababarock said:

But I don't think - my own experience - that you need a lot of complexity about directions, positioning and so on.

You really don't.
That makes it a very easy system, because you aren't bound by all those conventions, there aren't a lot of rules to be memorized.
It can also make it challenging, in the sense that it can be tough to decide which interpretations to rule out. (The cards are packed with meanings!)
They're fun decks, never boring.
 

On 5/25/2020 at 3:39 PM, reall said:

imo Any Book is Worth reading as long as you actually take time to think about it & learn something new(even if you don't agree!:) can't help it i'm a bnookworm!:) & don't be to harsh writing a book require dedication & time and more work &  investment to actually get it printed & published not to mention it's legacy so imo Every Writer do it from the heart & their best knowledge & intentions, some are just better with words!:) I know I'm bad explaining things even in my own language people get annoyed with my *this & that All the time!x,x facepalm lol

 True.
I need to stay picky, though. Both funds and space are limited! So I try to stick with books I'll get a lot of use out of. 😉

[reall]

@katrinka totally got you on picky (I'm Libra myself & lucky for that as I already have my limits at stretch!:) also happy we have this *modern pdf & digital decks & books as it saves us both!:)

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:27 AM, katrinka said:

That makes it a very easy system, because you aren't bound by all those conventions, there aren't a lot of rules to be memorized.
It can also make it challenging, in the sense that it can be tough to decide which interpretations to rule out. (The cards are packed with meanings!)
They're fun decks, never boring.

Yes, that's well put and I was just thinking how to explain that in the book. Because the cards are in one sense self-explanatory, but the interpretation of them does require skill. As you say, with so few rules, you need to make your own decisions. I think I'm going to show quite a few sample readings, which will help to get across an idea of how you might apply your own interpretations in context.

 

[Decan]

14 hours ago, Baba Studio - Bababarock said:

Yes, that's well put and I was just thinking how to explain that in the book. Because the cards are in one sense self-explanatory, but the interpretation of them does require skill. As you say, with so few rules, you need to make your own decisions. I think I'm going to show quite a few sample readings, which will help to get across an idea of how you might apply your own interpretations in context.

Oh yes please! Often, but not always of course, practical examples are what is lacking in books. We have the theory but to have a few examples regarding real questions or problems can be very useful to see how a fortune teller reads in context.

I'm excited about your project!

Edited June 1, 2020 by Decan

[katrinka]

14 hours ago, Baba Studio - Bababarock said:

Yes, that's well put and I was just thinking how to explain that in the book. Because the cards are in one sense self-explanatory, but the interpretation of them does require skill. As you say, with so few rules, you need to make your own decisions. I think I'm going to show quite a few sample readings, which will help to get across an idea of how you might apply your own interpretations in context.

I've been fiddling with these kinds of decks for years, but in my case, accuracy seems to rely on luck.
Taking it down  to a skill set would be helpful indeed.

[Decan]

For the Little Czech LWB, I note for those who could be interested that there are online Czech keypads to type special characters. Without that the translation is more difficult, since it is at at times nevertheless (with several online translators and a Czech dictionary!); but things are much better if we start directly with a Czech keypad. 

Very interesting otherwise, there are rules, clear meanings and combinations, but not too much or that strict (open rules); of course no stop cards or start cards, nothing about directions or auspicious versus inauspicious etc.

Some meanings seem to overlap at times regarding several cards (we have to think) and intuition is very important. The spread to use with this deck is a box of 9 cards.

The Thief card can have an odd behaviour at times in this deck, Hope and Good Chance seem the better cards (the cards are grouped in 6 circles, the 2 last are for the worst cards, there are a few!!).

Okay it's all that I can say 🙂

Edited June 10, 2020 by Decan

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

On 6/10/2020 at 6:59 AM, Decan said:

 

Very interesting otherwise, there are rules, clear meanings and combinations, but not too much or that strict (open rules); of course no stop cards or start cards, nothing about directions or auspicious versus inauspicious etc.

Some meanings seem to overlap at times regarding several cards (we have to think) and intuition is very important. The spread to use with this deck is a box of 9 cards.

 

There are also traditional spreads that use all the cards, but yes, I totally agree, nothing about stop or start cards or directions or auspicious versus inauspicious.

Those things may be very useful to some readers, and I do think everyone can read as they prefer. But they seem to be modern inventions for these cards.