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  • First labor - Nemian lion submitted by Arch

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    First labor - Nemian lion:

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    After I gave the cautionary tale in the last article, I think it is time to look closer on what our spiritual path entails.

    The story of Hercules 12 labors is one I think illustrate perfectly the task before us.

    What we actually have to deal with to traverse the path we have to take.

     

    The first labor Hercules is given is to take on the Nemian lion.

    A being with a skin that cannot be punctured and claws that can cut through any armor.

     

    This monster is a symbol of something we our-self encounter time and time again.

    Often we are overpowered and devoured by this monster that cut through all our defenses,

    and are invulnerable to any attack that we mount against it.

     

    Hercules succeeds in taking the beast by knocking it unconscious, and then skinning it with it's own claws.

     

    Yet how does this battle translate over to the Tarot and our own lives?

     

    In the Chariot card we get a hint of the direction to look.

    We often see a black and white horse pulling in opposite directions.

    By taking the reins and letting the horses fight each other rather than us, we gain the upper hand.

     

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    The horse is a symbol of our life force, the black and white horse, is a symbol of different directions of this force.

    Some cards use more horses to symbolize different aspects and differentiation's of this force, yet the principle remains the same.

    Cards with only one horse, symbolize a victory already had, since the energy is at our disposal.

     

    The squirrel often symbolize the same thing as the one horse, namely our life energy tamed and controlled in a direction.

     

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    From this we realize that the monster Hercules face in the Nemian lion is our own life energy out of control.

    It is what happens to us, whenever we lose control of our-self, and our own reactions carry us away.

    When past patterns of habit and their energetic charge is too much for our will.

    Every obstacle both inner and outer that demand us to do something new, to strike out a new path,

    is in essence a battle with our Nemian lion, in every success we have a victory over it, in every failure we get devoured.

     

    Yet this is only part of the story, and the Chariot only points to part of the issue.

    Sure it illuminates the aspect of using the monsters own power against it,

    yet it hardly does the whole story justice.

     

    Another card that is very central here is Strength, this is also a card that illustrates being at peace with the beast.

    Having tamed it and working with it rather than against it.

     

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    Hercules after having skinned the lion, used it's impenetrable skin as an armor.

    Meaning that the treasure we acquire from facing down the beast, is a protection in later battles.

    Each experience of victory we have, makes us that much more formidable in battle.

     

    But these are just the most obvious cards in this regard.

    If we look deeper at the psychological implications that the chariot points towards,

    our ego when encountering challenges, gets frightened out of its wits.

    Eurystheus the King that gives the challenges to Hercules, can be likened to the ego.

    After Hercules killed the lion and showed off the skin as proof,

    Eurystheus hid in a jar terrified of Hercules and the powers he embodies and had proven mastery over.

     

    In this sense a fitting card is the tower, the very card that represents the ego's model of the world shattered.

    Whenever we grow and succeed, we feel good for a little while, but then we realize that we have changed.

    We have become more powerful, and being more powerful everything change, who we think we are,

    who others think we are, and we get served new challenges on a silver platter.

    Challenges of a new order of magnitude.

     

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    Yet even there we are not done, we need to go all the way back to the start of this little tale.

    This all came about because an imbalance in the world order.

    Zeus was the father of Hercules, and Hercules was his illegitimate son.

    Something that made his wife Hera jealous, so she drove Hercules mad, making him kill his family.

    His labors is his penance of this crime, in other words the path we must take is a penance for division.

     

    Zeus is the Emperor card and Hera is the Empress card.

    The lack of balance between these two, meaning a lack of connection with the card of Temperance,

    is what set the stage of this divine drama.

    This matches the Jungian idea of Anima and Animus,

    The one of the Emperor or Empress gaining the upper hand,

    will be the one who sets the stage for the inner conflict that creates the necessity to fight ourselves,

    like we would be battling a Nemian Lion.

    The ideal card and the one I leave you with is then the Lovers, where we connect with our true self,

    drop all pretense of having a division and live in perfect inner and outer harmony.

    This is the ideal of wholeness.

     

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    I plan to continue this series on Hercules labors, just because I find it so fascinating.




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    ThankYou for your brilliant articles.  Goodness, absolutely riveting. I reread it twice and think I need a few more times just to really sink my spirit into what you are saying.  Very profound.  ThankYou.

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    6 hours ago, Gazelle said:

    ThankYou for your brilliant articles.  Goodness, absolutely riveting. I reread it twice and think I need a few more times just to really sink my spirit into what you are saying.  Very profound.  ThankYou.

    You are welcome!

    It means a lot to hear that people are enjoying this 🙂

    I'll get started properly on the next labor sometime later tonight!

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    I had never even really heard of shadow work till about 6 months ago, and it just KEEPS popping up as the theme of my life path.  I thought shadow work was this new concept developed by spiritual psychologists like Carl Jung, but people like him are pulling from all these ancient traditions and the thread literally runs through EVERYTHING.  Taoism has the balance of yin and yang, mystical christianity seeks to illuminate and bring light to the dark places within, the alchemists were learning to transmute "lead into gold" which was a metaphor for transmuting one's volatile nature into a balanced and well expressed form.  I never got this kind of teaching growing up, it was always "The shadow is bad suppress it!!!"  And when you try to do that it's never long before you find that lion is too powerful to be suppressed.  Learning to work with and tame that lion?  Now THAT sounds possible, that gives hope.  Love it, thanks for the post Arch/Saturn  (not sure who to thank honestly lol)  

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    @Symph

    Yeah the spiritual thread touches all of humankind, so there is no real surprise that the themes come up over and over.

    Carl Jung called it archetypes, that points to the chief form of everything, since arch mean chief and type points to form.

    Yeah Christianity suppress the fourth element that they don't include in their trinity, so the Shadow/Satan is to be avoided.

    Which sets one up for a major fall after a while, though a trinity is still better than a duality, which is again better than being one-sided.

    Though I think I touch on that in the later articles, from a certain point of view.

     

    Saturn was kind enough to post those articles for me, since the forum had yet to get an article submit button.

     

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    On 10/6/2019 at 12:31 PM, Arch said:

    @Symph

    Yeah the spiritual thread touches all of humankind, so there is no real surprise that the themes come up over and over.

    Carl Jung called it archetypes, that points to the chief form of everything, since arch mean chief and type points to form.

    Yeah Christianity suppress the fourth element that they don't include in their trinity, so the Shadow/Satan is to be avoided.

    Which sets one up for a major fall after a while, though a trinity is still better than a duality, which is again better than being one-sided.

    Though I think I touch on that in the later articles, from a certain point of view.

     

    Saturn was kind enough to post those articles for me, since the forum had yet to get an article submit button.

     

    oh ok, so you're the author of these posts got it.  Yes...  it was hard for me to come out of that Christian view of Light vs Dark, Black and white, right and wrong etc...  And I'm not saying I don't strongly believe in right and wrong, I just don't believe we are fighting the darkness, we are learning to transform it, to work with it, to express it in a healthy and beautiful way, not suppressing it until it explodes out with a vengeance.  But I mean, these concepts really are in the bible, but if you try to show a dogmatic Christian this they will tell you you are a heretic.  But the more I get away from that view of things the more I see that these esoteric concepts really are in the scriptures, though it looks like they've added some things and changed some words here and there, when one knows how to navigate it though it starts to become clear what was really being said, or at least, you get clues and hints toward a bigger picture in the text.  

     

    I think one of the first things that started unraveling this for me was when I realized that pagans and hindus usually do still believe in one creator God that is the over all consciousness behind all things.   Cause I had always thought "They just have tons of different gods and don't believe in the one true God" but when I finally listened to and read pagan and hindu literature and talks, it became clear that no, many of them DO believe there is only one God, but that He/She expresses themself through different forms.  One God, many forms.  I realized that even the bible says God can express himself in many forms and I was just like "wait hold up.... WHY did we persecute these people again??? HOW is this evil???"  So once that thread unraveled I began wondering what ELSE I was misinformed about, which sent me down maaaany rabbit holes and welp.... here I am, Tarot loving, crystal wearing, shadow honoring mystic who wants to meet a shaman and have a vision quest!!!  LMAO  Life is weird isn't it?  But I love it.  

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    katrinka

    Posted

    40 minutes ago, Symph said:

    oh ok, so you're the author of these posts got it.  Yes...  it was hard for me to come out of that Christian view of Light vs Dark, Black and white, right and wrong etc...  And I'm not saying I don't strongly believe in right and wrong, I just don't believe we are fighting the darkness, we are learning to transform it, to work with it, to express it in a healthy and beautiful way, not suppressing it until it explodes out with a vengeance.  But I mean, these concepts really are in the bible, but if you try to show a dogmatic Christian this they will tell you you are a heretic. 

    Well, it all started with the old Hebrew texts...the Tanakh, the Torah, the commentaries. I'm not able to read any of those, but the people I've talked to who have are NOTHING like dogmatic Christians.

    I'm told that Hebrew doesn't translate well. It's full of double and triple word meanings, puns, etc. It's meant to be a lifetime study that includes critical thinking, reflection, and questioning things. So the Old Testament is a poor representation of the Tanakh (Jewish Bible). And there's this: https://newspunch.com/early-draft-bible-fiction/?fbclid=IwAR1ERjijcuEJqY83iyW22b_tZ_cUhOuggje6SYR7UfOkANKjJhqsHF_JKT0

    From what I understand, the intention of the old writing seems to sort of go in layers. If someone is a complete dolt and thinks it's all literal and the only reason they're not out killing people is because they're convinced God said it's bad - well - better to believe that than to be out killing people. But life is full of disappointment. Some of that can't be helped. Quite a lot of it could be if we behaved ourselves. And that's really why we're supposed to behave. To make it easier for people - and easier for us. No supernatural rewards, no "you HAVE to believe this way or be cast into the lake of fire" (or be killed for heresy), just what ought to be common sense. There's truth to be found in it. We just have to sift it out and not swallow everything hook, line, and sinker, IMHO.

     

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    7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

    Well, it all started with the old Hebrew texts...the Tanakh, the Torah, the commentaries. I'm not able to read any of those, but the people I've talked to who have are NOTHING like dogmatic Christians.

    I'm told that Hebrew doesn't translate well. It's full of double and triple word meanings, puns, etc. It's meant to be a lifetime study that includes critical thinking, reflection, and questioning things. So the Old Testament is a poor representation of the Tanakh (Jewish Bible). And there's this: https://newspunch.com/early-draft-bible-fiction/?fbclid=IwAR1ERjijcuEJqY83iyW22b_tZ_cUhOuggje6SYR7UfOkANKjJhqsHF_JKT0

    From what I understand, the intention of the old writing seems to sort of go in layers. If someone is a complete dolt and thinks it's all literal and the only reason they're not out killing people is because they're convinced God said it's bad - well - better to believe that than to be out killing people. But life is full of disappointment. Some of that can't be helped. Quite a lot of it could be if we behaved ourselves. And that's really why we're supposed to behave. To make it easier for people - and easier for us. No supernatural rewards, no "you HAVE to believe this way or be cast into the lake of fire" (or be killed for heresy), just what ought to be common sense. There's truth to be found in it. We just have to sift it out and not swallow everything hook, line, and sinker, IMHO.

     

    I'm a bit triggered at the thought that anyone who believes the bible literally is a "complete dolt" cause that's like... all of my family and was me for 30 years.  And I don't think they or I were being "dolts", what I was/they are being was brainwashed and afraid.  When you have had this concept of hell put on you with great emotion and sincerity since you were just a child, it doesn't go away easily.  And when you have believed these things as perfect history since childhood, that doesn't go easily either.  Maybe somewhere back there some people believing this stuff were just being idiots, (though I think more likely they too were being threatened with tortures and thus just trying not to get killed)  but now it's a passed down heritage that is forced upon us before we are old enough to understand what is happening.  We sing the songs, we read the stories, we hear the sermons, and we really do believe that if we question it we are now in danger of WRATH.  

    Even when I could logically see how wrong it was and everything in me was going "Omg, this HAS to be false, these beliefs make no sense, I see through it" it was still like a year or so before I could really live from that place, rather than just choosing a sort of dissonant refusal to think about it, because that fear of God's wrath was so ingrained in me I couldn't let it go, it was very tangible and real for me.  

    I want to know more about that new find though!  I read the article I didn't fully comprehend it, I actually still believe Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for us, I just don't think it was to save us from some hell when we die but rather to give us access to the all mind without having to go through the ancient rites and cleanses that used to only be available to the shaman/priest/oracle/whatever it was in whichever society.  I mean I'm certainly not married to the idea it's just been making sense to me based on things I read and sense and feel.  

    I also still believe somewhat in the historicity of the "bible" (though I don't believe there is such a thing as THE BIBLE, just many different scriptures) that many of the events did take place though I think they've been framed and embellished to have a more symbolic meaning and shouldn't be taken as just straight up facts.  

    Maybe all this is cause I'm still transitioning but I dunno, I feel like the bible doesn't really have to be changed too much to be being used as a tool for control, just make heaven a place we go when we die instead of a state we can achieve now, do the same thing with hell, insist that Jesus was the only incarnation of the christ and now when he says "I am the way the truth and the life" it's JESUS saying it, not the all mind THROUGH Jesus, not the same mind that was in Krishna, Buddha, Mythra and many other "christs" etc.  

    You see what I mean?  I mean you may be right, maybe there's no history there at all, but I'm just saying, you don't really have to CHANGE the bible to create a mind prison like christianity, you just have to redefine the concepts and then tell anyone who disagrees they are a heretic, going to hell, or in the past?  Just burn them at the stake yourself.  This has christians so confused it's just... sad, and I really do still consider them my people.  I understand how they think, why they think that way, and I want to be someone who can help them to see that saying you don't believe in these tenants of the church is not saying you don't love Jesus, or that your experience of God has been false, or that you are evil now, and that those concepts weren't given to them by God, but by an institution that claimed to be His mouthpiece.  

     

    Anyway, that's where I'm at, and I hope you don't take the word "triggered" too seriously, I'm not angry you said what you said at all, I just want people to understand that while there are crazy bigoted awful christians who choose not to think out of laziness or even worse, hatred, there are also well meaning, intelligent, but very brainwashed and afraid ones who are just too scared to leave their prison cell, and I was very much one of them for a long long time.  

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    katrinka

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Symph said:

    I'm a bit triggered at the thought that anyone who believes the bible literally is a "complete dolt" cause that's like... all of my family and was me for 30 years.  And I don't think they or I were being "dolts", what I was/they are being was brainwashed and afraid.  When you have had this concept of hell put on you with great emotion and sincerity since you were just a child, it doesn't go away easily.  And when you have believed these things as perfect history since childhood, that doesn't go easily either.  Maybe somewhere back there some people believing this stuff were just being idiots, (though I think more likely they too were being threatened with tortures and thus just trying not to get killed)  but now it's a passed down heritage that is forced upon us before we are old enough to understand what is happening.  We sing the songs, we read the stories, we hear the sermons, and we really do believe that if we question it we are now in danger of WRATH.  

    Even when I could logically see how wrong it was and everything in me was going "Omg, this HAS to be false, these beliefs make no sense, I see through it" it was still like a year or so before I could really live from that place, rather than just choosing a sort of dissonant refusal to think about it, because that fear of God's wrath was so ingrained in me I couldn't let it go, it was very tangible and real for me.  

    My bad. You're correct, fear is a helluva motivator. Poor choice of words on my part.
    It's almost like Stockholm Syndrome or being trauma bonded to some abuser. It's a form of gaslighting - that little voice inside may say "This can't be right", but the manipulators make sure it gets smashed down.

    I just did victim blaming. *shudders* I have a lot to think about here.

    1 hour ago, Symph said:

    I want to know more about that new find though!  I read the article I didn't fully comprehend it, I actually still believe Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for us, I just don't think it was to save us from some hell when we die but rather to give us access to the all mind without having to go through the ancient rites and cleanses that used to only be available to the shaman/priest/oracle/whatever it was in whichever society.  I mean I'm certainly not married to the idea it's just been making sense to me based on things I read and sense and feel.  

    I kind of see Jesus as an MLK figure. Both had a message, both knew that they would be killed if they didn't walk it back, and both stuck to their guns, even knowing that.

    It's almost the same message, they were both advocating for disenfranchised people. And it was important enough to let themselves be martyred.

    As an aside, I sometimes think about the statement "There is no way to the Father but through me." I don't think it means what the clergy says it means, that you have to be a Christian or else. How was he identifying when he said that? As Yeshua the carpenter, or as the Christ, the compassion? In Buddhist sects, you have compassion deities that are a kind of shortcut. Green Tara, Kuan Yin, Avolokiteshvara...
     

    1 hour ago, Symph said:

    I also still believe somewhat in the historicity of the "bible" (though I don't believe there is such a thing as THE BIBLE, just many different scriptures) that many of the events did take place though I think they've been framed and embellished to have a more symbolic meaning and shouldn't be taken as just straight up facts.  

    Yes, there's some factual stuff mixed in.
    But it's best not to take scriptures - of ANY religion - as a history book.
    There's a passage from Black Elk Speaks that opened that up for me. He was talking about Calf Pipe Woman, the story of how she brought the Pipe to the Lakota. And there's some wild, impossible stuff in there, a lot like Bible stories. Anyway, Black Elk tells the story, and ends it with "This they tell. And whether it happened so or not, I do not know. But if you think about it, you can see that it is true."
     

    1 hour ago, Symph said:

    Maybe all this is cause I'm still transitioning but I dunno, I feel like the bible doesn't really have to be changed too much to be being used as a tool for control, just make heaven a place we go when we die instead of a state we can achieve now, do the same thing with hell, insist that Jesus was the only incarnation of the christ and now when he says "I am the way the truth and the life" it's JESUS saying it, not the all mind THROUGH Jesus, not the same mind that was in Krishna, Buddha, Mythra and many other "christs" etc.  

    You see what I mean?  I mean you may be right, maybe there's no history there at all, but I'm just saying, you don't really have to CHANGE the bible to create a mind prison like christianity, you just have to redefine the concepts and then tell anyone who disagrees they are a heretic, going to hell, or in the past?  Just burn them at the stake yourself.  This has christians so confused it's just... sad, and I really do still consider them my people.  I understand how they think, why they think that way, and I want to be someone who can help them to see that saying you don't believe in these tenants of the church is not saying you don't love Jesus, or that your experience of God has been false, or that you are evil now, and that those concepts weren't given to them by God, but by an institution that claimed to be His mouthpiece.  

    So. Much. THIS.

    I've got a good amount of anger over this issue. Not just the Inquisition or Carlisle Indian School or what have you, but things happening here, now.

    Substitute "evangelicals" for "scribes and Pharisees" and this is still timely. Funny how the Bible thumpers never mention it: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=KJV

     

    1 hour ago, Symph said:

     

    Anyway, that's where I'm at, and I hope you don't take the word "triggered" too seriously, I'm not angry you said what you said at all, I just want people to understand that while there are crazy bigoted awful christians who choose not to think out of laziness or even worse, hatred, there are also well meaning, intelligent, but very brainwashed and afraid ones who are just too scared to leave their prison cell, and I was very much one of them for a long long time.  

     

    Yeah. You make a good point. It all ticks a few too many boxes http://www.anandainfo.com/cult_checklist.html

    Some, like you, manage to extricate themselves. Others need intervention and deprogramming. And I have no clue how to do that.

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    7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

    My bad. You're correct, fear is a helluva motivator. Poor choice of words on my part.
    It's almost like Stockholm Syndrome or being trauma bonded to some abuser. It's a form of gaslighting - that little voice inside may say "This can't be right", but the manipulators make sure it gets smashed down.

    I just did victim blaming. *shudders* I have a lot to think about here.

    I kind of see Jesus as an MLK figure. Both had a message, both knew that they would be killed if they didn't walk it back, and both stuck to their guns, even knowing that.

    It's almost the same message, they were both advocating for disenfranchised people. And it was important enough to let themselves be martyred.

    As an aside, I sometimes think about the statement "There is no way to the Father but through me." I don't think it means what the clergy says it means, that you have to be a Christian or else. How was he identifying when he said that? As Yeshua the carpenter, or as the Christ, the compassion? In Buddhist sects, you have compassion deities that are a kind of shortcut. Green Tara, Kuan Yin, Avolokiteshvara...
     

    Yes, there's some factual stuff mixed in.
    But it's best not to take scriptures - of ANY religion - as a history book.
    There's a passage from Black Elk Speaks that opened that up for me. He was talking about Calf Pipe Woman, the story of how she brought the Pipe to the Lakota. And there's some wild, impossible stuff in there, a lot like Bible stories. Anyway, Black Elk tells the story, and ends it with "This they tell. And whether it happened so or not, I do not know. But if you think about it, you can see that it is true."
     

    So. Much. THIS.

    I've got a good amount of anger over this issue. Not just the Inquisition or Carlisle Indian School or what have you, but things happening here, now.

    Substitute "evangelicals" for "scribes and Pharisees" and this is still timely. Funny how the Bible thumpers never mention it: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=KJV

     

     

    Yeah. You make a good point. It all ticks a few too many boxes http://www.anandainfo.com/cult_checklist.html

    Some, like you, manage to extricate themselves. Others need intervention and deprogramming. And I have no clue how to do that.

    I'd like to do a point by point response to you as well but I'm not sure how to split up the quote, if you could let me know how you did that I'd appreciate it.  I'll just have to do it down here for now cause I think if I type in that box it's just gonna insert my text in your quote.  

     

    As far as you victim blaming with your choice of words, hey, I get it, I grow more and more furious toward this institution and what it's done/is doing all the time.  No one could justifiably be upset with you for being bitter, it needlessly gets in the way of soooo much good that could happen.  I mean we have millions of well meaning people who will oppose world peace because they believe it's a "sign of the antichrist".... that's....  beyond maddening.  

     

    I see you and I are very much on the same page about how if Jesus did exist and say the things written of him, it was the Christ Consciousness (or whatever one chooses to call it) speaking THROUGH him, the same christ consciousness that is in all of us.  And I mean, there are clues in the bible that that's what he meant.  He said we could do greater things than he has done, he says in one chapter that we are all gods, (you rarely hear a christian talk about THAT one haha)  and when he states that every word he says is a spirit word straight from his father.  It's like he's saying "The man you see before you isn't the one saying this stuff, it's source speaking through me".   So yeah, very much on the same page about that.  

     

    That quote that Black Elk says about "I know not if it's true but if you ponder it you'll see it's true" OMG IM IN LOVE WITH THAT QUOTE.  I gotta read this book now that was just beautiful!!!  

     

    The thing you said about scribes and pharisees, I could see the similarities with the past and history repeating itself even when I was still a christian!  I would hear sermons that were legalistic, get into arguments about whether or not people who didn't believe could still be saved, get angry when people would claim you shouldn't hang out with this person or that person because they were too ungodly and I'd just go "How do you not see that this is EXACTLY what Jesus couldn't stand about the pharisees, you are being the very thing he spoke against!!!"  So yeah I totally see that, nothing has changed, and the very people who think they are on Jesus' side are often the ones he would be chastising the most!

     

    I don't have time right now to check out all those links but I am looking forward to doing that soon.  This has been a very rewarding conversation for me, I enjoy your perspectives and am glad we've crossed paths Katrinka 🙂

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    katrinka

    Posted

    I'm glad we crossed paths, too.
    I have a lot of stuff I only very rarely have the opportunity bounce off of people, and this is giving me a chance to do just that.
    That's what's up. :)

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    katrinka

    Posted

    45 minutes ago, Symph said:

    I'd like to do a point by point response to you as well but I'm not sure how to split up the quote, if you could let me know how you did that I'd appreciate it.  I'll just have to do it down here for now cause I think if I type in that box it's just gonna insert my text in your quote.  

    You go to the end of the part you want to quote. Then you hit 'enter" a couple of times, and voila!

     

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    32 minutes ago, katrinka said:

    You go to the end of the part you want to quote.

    You mean...

    32 minutes ago, katrinka said:

    Then you hit 'enter" a couple of times, and voila!

    Like THIS????  Why yes... yes you do... thank you lol

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    Raggydoll

    Posted

    @katrinka @Symph I am glad that the two of you are hitting it off! This discussion might be better off in the Spirituality forum (and/or via PM). I just wanted to add this:

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfheSAcCsrE&t=1s

     

    I think it says it all. You will struggle to find anyone more competent to comment on the topic in question. His channel has all his lectures and all his debates.

     

    If you want to continue discussing this topic then let us know so we can give you a dedicated spot for it. Religious and spiritual topics are not off limits as long as they are respectful and not preachy. They just need to sit in the right category 🙂 

     

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    Just now, Raggydoll said:

    @katrinka @Symph I am glad that the two of you are hitting it off! This discussion might be better off in the Spirituality forum (and/or via PM). I just wanted to add this:

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfheSAcCsrE&t=1s

     

    I think it says it all. You will struggle to find anyone more competent to comment on the topic in question. His channel has all his lectures and all his debates.

     

    If you want to continue discussing this topic then let us know so we can give you a dedicated spot for it. Religious and spiritual topics are not off limits as long as they are respectful and not preachy. They just need to sit in the right category 🙂 

     

    I tooootally forgot what the original topic even was I got so lost in this LOL  Sorry haha, thanks Raggydoll

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    katrinka

    Posted

    Apologies for the thread drift. It happens and it does get interesting,lol. Move things if you like. 😉
    I'm 1:40 into that video and I like it already. :)

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