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Author Topic: The tarot or the reader?  (Read 735 times)

EmpressAdora

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The tarot or the reader?
« on: November 08, 2018, 04:09:20 PM »
I have found myself pondering this question for a long time now. Is it the tarot that sees the answer, or is it the gift of the person reading the cards?  While I do believe that everyone can read the tarot at least to a degree, there are arguably some that are just better at it. There are some people who with little practice can just interpret with great levels of accuracy and detail. I personally feel as though the tarot is more of a conduit for an already gifted person. A means for them to draw out their gifts if that makes sense. What does everyone else think about this? 

Carus

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 04:18:54 PM »
It might be a bit of both in a way. I've seen amazing things happen from people just playing with my Thoth deck. So I think that there is a degree of potential in a good deck that can of course only be realised at the hands of a gifted reader. It will also depend on what you think is behind our work, is it the reader's subconscious of is it the influence of some other entity or force. I attribute the Tarot's power to the angels and especially the Holy Guardian angel of the reader so I think that they can sometimes influence the deck even if we are not trying.
AS ABOVE SO BELOW

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 04:25:46 PM »
This is a really good question.  I think that the cards present the answer to the reader, and it's up to the reader to interpret them correctly.  You're right when you say that some people are better than it than others, but, as you also said, anyone can learn to read the cards on some level.  Those with a higher level of natural intuition will of course find it easier to connect the dots and understand the story the cards are telling, but really anyone can do a basic reading if they study the cards and learn their meanings.

Also, I think that ,especially when you're reading for yourself, the cards draw out the answers that you already know in your heart.  I don't know how it works, but the cards just seem to end up right where they belong, giving you the answers that you need.  The hard part is deciphering those answers, since the cards often seem to be speaking in code!  Again, those with greater intuition will have a much easier time of this, but anyone can get something out of their readings if they'll let the images on the cards really speak to them.

"A multitude of small delights constitute happiness" -Charles Baudelaire

EmpressAdora

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 04:33:33 PM »
It might be a bit of both in a way. I've seen amazing things happen from people just playing with my Thoth deck. So I think that there is a degree of potential in a good deck that can of course only be realised at the hands of a gifted reader. It will also depend on what you think is behind our work, is it the reader's subconscious of is it the influence of some other entity or force. I attribute the Tarot's power to the angels and especially the Holy Guardian angel of the reader so I think that they can sometimes influence the deck even if we are not trying.

I think you’re really on to something with this. I have never been one to think that it was purely sub conscious. I certainly think that has a role to play. Especially when reading four ourselves and about situations that we know a lot about already. We’re human after all. It really really hard to put yourself out side of it completely. If I am being honest, I struggle to read for myself and often second guess and a assume that I’m seeing what I want to see and not what’s really there. However, like you said I have seen people with little prior knowledge and knowing nothing about a situation come up with really profound things. I think there’s guidance coming from elsewhere. I’m not 100% where that it is. But I see it much like a true clairvoyant knows things they’re getting that information from some source as well. Be it angels, nature, passed on relatives or what have you. I think it’s a similar thing just a different way of passing that information on to the person.

EmpressAdora

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 04:39:28 PM »
This is a really good question.  I think that the cards present the answer to the reader, and it's up to the reader to interpret them correctly.  You're right when you say that some people are better than it than others, but, as you also said, anyone can learn to read the cards on some level.  Those with a higher level of natural intuition will of course find it easier to connect the dots and understand the story the cards are telling, but really anyone can do a basic reading if they study the cards and learn their meanings.

Also, I think that ,especially when you're reading for yourself, the cards draw out the answers that you already know in your heart.  I don't know how it works, but the cards just seem to end up right where they belong, giving you the answers that you need.  The hard part is deciphering those answers, since the cards often seem to be speaking in code!  Again, those with greater intuition will have a much easier time of this, but anyone can get something out of their readings if they'll let the images on the cards really speak to them.


You are so right!  I often find that the hardest reading to interpret is the one I do for myself. Like I can’t read it at all or I am second guessing thinking that I’m only seeing what I want to see. It’s really a strange issue all around.  I have seen that too where someone who knows nothing about tarot reading can just completely understand what the cards are saying. Maybe that’s the whole intention?  To make it user friendly so that the universe can get its message out there to anyone whose willing to take the time to listen.

libra

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 04:55:20 PM »
People often talk about the cards and say "They are just cardboard and ink..." and I'm not going to lie, those words have come from my mouth as well - but, when I say, there's always this little internal caveat of "Until you make them something more."

See, in my life, things are magic.  Items have spirits.  A notable example was my last car, a t-bird.  Her name was Tabitha, and she was a spirit who was stuck in this realm until she landed in my car (I made space for her there).  She was a bit older than me, tight jeans, crop top, chain smoker.  Always this hint of sadness in her eyes.  When we were in a terrible accident, one that should have killed me, I felt her wrap around me, showed me the image of 2 kids that she couldn't save last time.  She thanked me, and I watched her leave the crumpled body of the car. It sounds crazy, but I know that she was the mom of 2 kids who she couldn't save, and keeping Wolfboy & I alive gave her the closure she needed to move on.

The car itself wasn't magic.  Not until I made space in it for her, not until she agreed to inhabit that space.  Still, the magic is the only reason I'm alive today.

It's the same with my cards.  They are a different sort of spirit, but they are there nonetheless.  I get a deck, I open space, and something fills that space.  I feel ok telling people that their deck is just paper and ink, because the people who need that reassurance won't be consciously opening that space like I do, so I can use those words to reassure them that their deck isn't going to invite in demons or whatever they are fearing. 

It also means I have trouble reading with other people's decks. Either they are like me, and they have a spirit in the deck and it's like ... we need compatible energy I guess?  We need to be able to speak the same language.  And if they aren't like me, then their deck lies dormant.  They are being read based on knowledge of the cards and symbology, etc.  I can read with a deck that's dormant, but I have to switch brain modalities and really, it's often just easier to grab whatever deck I've got with me instead!  This does also mean that buying used decks is an interesting experience for me.  Sometimes, they are very old and very dormant and it takes a lot of effort to pull a spirit out of slumber.  Sometimes they were "activated" and it's a matter of "meeting" them instead.  Puts the "deck interview" idea into reality for me!

Alongside that, though, I do think that tarot, like everything else in the world, has people who are naturally talented, and people who need to put more work into it.  That's just the nature of humanity, and regardless if you have spirited decks or not, there's also the factor of the reader's innate ability and learned skill to be put into the mix.

sandrang123

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 05:10:16 PM »
I only read your initial post, as I don't like to taint waters (in my own interpretation).

I started reading tarot when I was 14. Tarot led me to so much and to so many. I can never thank cards enough. Arguably, I was an intuitive or psychic before that, but tarot was the thing that I most credit for my development and opening me up. <3
Leo Sun, Pisces Moon, Libra Rising. 25+ years reading tarot. Always learning. :)

EmpressAdora

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 05:10:40 PM »
People often talk about the cards and say "They are just cardboard and ink..." and I'm not going to lie, those words have come from my mouth as well - but, when I say, there's always this little internal caveat of "Until you make them something more."

See, in my life, things are magic.  Items have spirits.  A notable example was my last car, a t-bird.  Her name was Tabitha, and she was a spirit who was stuck in this realm until she landed in my car (I made space for her there).  She was a bit older than me, tight jeans, crop top, chain smoker.  Always this hint of sadness in her eyes.  When we were in a terrible accident, one that should have killed me, I felt her wrap around me, showed me the image of 2 kids that she couldn't save last time.  She thanked me, and I watched her leave the crumpled body of the car. It sounds crazy, but I know that she was the mom of 2 kids who she couldn't save, and keeping Wolfboy & I alive gave her the closure she needed to move on.

The car itself wasn't magic.  Not until I made space in it for her, not until she agreed to inhabit that space.  Still, the magic is the only reason I'm alive today.

It's the same with my cards.  They are a different sort of spirit, but they are there nonetheless.  I get a deck, I open space, and something fills that space.  I feel ok telling people that their deck is just paper and ink, because the people who need that reassurance won't be consciously opening that space like I do, so I can use those words to reassure them that their deck isn't going to invite in demons or whatever they are fearing. 

It also means I have trouble reading with other people's decks. Either they are like me, and they have a spirit in the deck and it's like ... we need compatible energy I guess?  We need to be able to speak the same language.  And if they aren't like me, then their deck lies dormant.  They are being read based on knowledge of the cards and symbology, etc.  I can read with a deck that's dormant, but I have to switch brain modalities and really, it's often just easier to grab whatever deck I've got with me instead!  This does also mean that buying used decks is an interesting experience for me.  Sometimes, they are very old and very dormant and it takes a lot of effort to pull a spirit out of slumber.  Sometimes they were "activated" and it's a matter of "meeting" them instead.  Puts the "deck interview" idea into reality for me!

Alongside that, though, I do think that tarot, like everything else in the world, has people who are naturally talented, and people who need to put more work into it.  That's just the nature of humanity, and regardless if you have spirited decks or not, there's also the factor of the reader's innate ability and learned skill to be put into the mix.

This is so intriguing to me!  So, do you think that everyone has the ability to put a spirit in their deck. I 100% agree with you that all things are things until we make more of them. I think even someone with no magical belief or ability could believe in that. So often you hear people say “it’s not just a house it’s our home.”  I have seen that kind of energy in someone house before. Like memories of the people who lived it so. Willingly or not that energy gets out there. I think a lot of the time it stays. Have you ever seen the move the sixth sense?  It very much reminds me of the scene where the wife is working at her antique shop and a young couple comes to look at a ring. She goes on to describe that ring has an energy of in requited love. Silly example. Just a point to say I can certainly see a sport or energy or what have you put into something that is “just paper and ink”. Do you think that that is something that is transferable. Another strange example, when I was much younger maybe 12 or so. I was walking home from school and found this beautiful necklace on the street. As I started to wear it slowly it made me very ill. I don’t mean like cold symptoms. Rather something that shook me at my core and felt as though it was changing me from the inside out. It sounded so silly to say. But I buried it in the backyard with salt. For whatever reason that was the instinct that my 12 year old self had and thought was right. The feeling went away. Have you ever had something more negative like that come up?  Just curious. I find you to be a very interesting person!

EmpressAdora

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 05:12:28 PM »
I only read your initial post, as I don't like to taint waters (in my own interpretation).

I started reading tarot when I was 14. Tarot led me to so much and to so many. I can never thank cards enough. Arguably, I was an intuitive or psychic before that, but tarot was the thing that I most credit for my development and opening me up. <3

I totally agree with you on the same level. Do you think the tarot drew out what gifts you already had and made them easier to access and interpret. Or that it magnified or intensified what was there?

libra

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 05:30:32 PM »
People often talk about the cards and say "They are just cardboard and ink..." and I'm not going to lie, those words have come from my mouth as well - but, when I say, there's always this little internal caveat of "Until you make them something more."

See, in my life, things are magic.  Items have spirits.  A notable example was my last car, a t-bird.  Her name was Tabitha, and she was a spirit who was stuck in this realm until she landed in my car (I made space for her there).  She was a bit older than me, tight jeans, crop top, chain smoker.  Always this hint of sadness in her eyes.  When we were in a terrible accident, one that should have killed me, I felt her wrap around me, showed me the image of 2 kids that she couldn't save last time.  She thanked me, and I watched her leave the crumpled body of the car. It sounds crazy, but I know that she was the mom of 2 kids who she couldn't save, and keeping Wolfboy & I alive gave her the closure she needed to move on.

The car itself wasn't magic.  Not until I made space in it for her, not until she agreed to inhabit that space.  Still, the magic is the only reason I'm alive today.

It's the same with my cards.  They are a different sort of spirit, but they are there nonetheless.  I get a deck, I open space, and something fills that space.  I feel ok telling people that their deck is just paper and ink, because the people who need that reassurance won't be consciously opening that space like I do, so I can use those words to reassure them that their deck isn't going to invite in demons or whatever they are fearing. 

It also means I have trouble reading with other people's decks. Either they are like me, and they have a spirit in the deck and it's like ... we need compatible energy I guess?  We need to be able to speak the same language.  And if they aren't like me, then their deck lies dormant.  They are being read based on knowledge of the cards and symbology, etc.  I can read with a deck that's dormant, but I have to switch brain modalities and really, it's often just easier to grab whatever deck I've got with me instead!  This does also mean that buying used decks is an interesting experience for me.  Sometimes, they are very old and very dormant and it takes a lot of effort to pull a spirit out of slumber.  Sometimes they were "activated" and it's a matter of "meeting" them instead.  Puts the "deck interview" idea into reality for me!

Alongside that, though, I do think that tarot, like everything else in the world, has people who are naturally talented, and people who need to put more work into it.  That's just the nature of humanity, and regardless if you have spirited decks or not, there's also the factor of the reader's innate ability and learned skill to be put into the mix.

This is so intriguing to me!  So, do you think that everyone has the ability to put a spirit in their deck.

Yup, definitely!  Even people who don't actively do any spirit work.  If you've ever made a wish before blowing on a dandelion head, then you've got it in you to work magic.  I DON'T believe that these spaces will open on their own, though.

I 100% agree with you that all things are things until we make more of them. I think even someone with no magical belief or ability could believe in that. So often you hear people say “it’s not just a house it’s our home.”  I have seen that kind of energy in someone house before. Like memories of the people who lived it so. Willingly or not that energy gets out there. I think a lot of the time it stays.
Exactly, this is what I'm talking about when I say anyone can open that space.  If you can make a house a home, you can make a deck a home for a spirit.  And man, homes can be such interesting things!  I used to work as a tour guide at a shut down cannery, and it definitely carried echoes from the past.  The net loft there in particular, when I walked in there alone, and closed my eyes, I could hear parties, and games, and songs that would be sung while mending nets.  It was the parties that I heard the strongest, and partway through the summer, it was told to me that that was where they had celebrations, weddings, birthdays, because it was the easiest space to clear.  I also found out near the end of the summer that my mom had lived there for a short time when it was running!

Have you ever seen the move the sixth sense? 
Is that the "I see dead people" movie?  Not since I was a kid!

It very much reminds me of the scene where the wife is working at her antique shop and a young couple comes to look at a ring. She goes on to describe that ring has an energy of in requited love. Silly example.
I don't remember that scene! It's a real thing imo though!

Just a point to say I can certainly see a sport or energy or what have you put into something that is “just paper and ink”. Do you think that that is something that is transferable.
Depends?  It's possible!  My car before Tabitha was a broken old civic, that I had a spirit named Blueberry in.  When her transmission blew, she didn't feel ready to go, so Wolfboy worked some huge magic to pull her from that car and put her into the next one we got.  It took a lot out of him, and didn't settle in too well in the new car - but turns out that was because it already HAD a spirit that hadn't made her voice known, lol.  They actually cohabited that space until I got myself a car and Blueberry took that one over, but again, I had to hold that space open for her - I felt something else trying to settle in, and I didn't want to lose her, so it was an evening of meditation in that car, holding a bubble for her while she did the hard work, experience from the first transfer I guess!

Another strange example, when I was much younger maybe 12 or so. I was walking home from school and found this beautiful necklace on the street. As I started to wear it slowly it made me very ill. I don’t mean like cold symptoms. Rather something that shook me at my core and felt as though it was changing me from the inside out. It sounded so silly to say. But I buried it in the backyard with salt. For whatever reason that was the instinct that my 12 year old self had and thought was right. The feeling went away. Have you ever had something more negative like that come up? 
It's funny how smart we are as kids, you know?  That's part of why I'm so silly and playful with my cards.  I know what my intuition was like as a child, and I figure anything that keeps that space alive in my will do good for my intuition!  And, I have had that level of negativity, in a deck, actually!  It was Wolfboy's originally, and he got it from the Salvation Army for some reason...  Anyway, it had the woooorst energy, and it was like, everytime we cleansed it, it would seep back to the surface.  Like a house owned by a chain-smoker, you can never really get the smell out right?  Or like the river spirit from Spirited Away.  It wouldn't stop oozing!  I buried it with salt too, actually, a full waning moon cycle, with cedar smudging before hand, and some banishing crystals... like, I went all out.  Whatever was in it ended up fully banished, and a new spirit took over.  It's now like... curmudgeonly grandpa.  But that's better than toxic sludge!

Just curious. I find you to be a very interesting person!

Lol, I'm not really that interesting, or rather any more so than most people.  I just don't hide my weirdness.  We've all got it, but society says not to share it!

EmpressAdora

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 05:46:44 PM »


Lol, I'm not really that interesting, or rather any more so than most people.  I just don't hide my weirdness.  We've all got it, but society says not to share it!

Society is so wrong. I’m a very outwardly weird person myself. I’ve learned to embrace it. And I loooooove Miyazaki. Spirited away is one of my favorites. No one needs a toxic sludge deck. Unless it’s starts giving out handfuls of gold like the river spirt, then it’ll take it. 😂

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 06:33:54 PM »
I have found myself pondering this question for a long time now. Is it the tarot that sees the answer, or is it the gift of the person reading the cards? 

I admit I have not read most of the replies in this thread yet, because I just got home and I'm very tired.  (I had a wonderful visit with Grandpa - some of you will know what I mean - and just wanted to check in on the forum before bed.)

But this is what came immediately to mind:

Is it the violin that plays the music, or the violinist?

A gifted musician can coax beauty from a child's toy instrument, while a hack can produce only screeches from a Stradivarius.  Do with this metaphor what you will.
even though it all went wrong
I'll stand before the lord of song
With nothing on my tongue but hallelujah
        Leonard Cohen

Zen pretty much comes down to three things -- everything changes; everything is connected; pay attention.
        Jane Hirshfield

It all fits together if we let it

EmpressAdora

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 07:24:36 PM »
I have found myself pondering this question for a long time now. Is it the tarot that sees the answer, or is it the gift of the person reading the cards? 

I admit I have not read most of the replies in this thread yet, because I just got home and I'm very tired.  (I had a wonderful visit with Grandpa - some of you will know what I mean - and just wanted to check in on the forum before bed.)

But this is what came immediately to mind:

Is it the violin that plays the music, or the violinist?

A gifted musician can coax beauty from a child's toy instrument, while a hack can produce only screeches from a Stradivarius.  Do with this metaphor what you will.

I think that is the perfect answer.

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2018, 12:01:08 AM »
It's not just Tarot decks though, you can read anything containing material in which you can find a good range of meanings. It doesn't need to conform to some special system or even be intended for divination in the first place.

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Re: The tarot or the reader?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 01:29:54 AM »
It's not just Tarot decks though, you can read anything containing material in which you can find a good range of meanings. It doesn't need to conform to some special system or even be intended for divination in the first place.

So true! You can use anything. Literally anything. In my family, my relatives used to mainly read signs in nature and foretell things from that. Cards are a fairly new addition to the divinatory tradition. People have been divining since the dawn of times, so they would have used what ever methods they had access to. But cards should not be discarded as 'just' pieces of cardboard, in my opinion. Cards come from trees, and trees are as much a part of this universe as we humans are. And there is special energies in everything that resides on this planet, that is what I personally believe. So in a way I guess I feel that it that both the cards and the reader adds to the mix and that it is the unique combination that produces something that is far greater than the sum of its parts.

 

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