Is Lenormand suitable for self-reflection, introspection, meditation, and journaling like tarot can be?

[tarotnottaken]

From what I've gathered, the prevailing sense when it comes to Lenormand relative to tarot is that Lenormand is better for direct answers to questions about the everyday, worldly, and mundane. While tarot works for that too, of course, it can also be good for more complex questions of introspection, philosophy, and explorations of the psyche because it's as much about humans as it is about situations. What I'm trying to suggest, I suppose, is that tarot may be better suited for "new age" tarot reading -- meaning, tarot reading that's less for divination and more so for what I described in the title of this post. You're not going to have as much room for meditative interpretation of a Lenormand spread as you would in, say, a Tarot de Marseille layout.

 

I'd like to hear from Lenormand readers about your experiences working with Lenormand decks when it comes to this sort of thing. Thank you 😀

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, Angband said:

From what I've gathered, the prevailing sense when it comes to Lenormand relative to tarot is that Lenormand is better for direct answers to questions about the everyday, worldly, and mundane.

In my experience this is only partially true. I'm not expert at Lenormand as I've only been doing it for 6-7 years, but I've observed that Lenormand can and does give emotional and psychological insight.

 

This is different from Tarot, however. Tarot has the Trionfi cards which can have deep spiritual significance. Lenormand has nothing like that. *BUT* Lenormand has many cards which deal with interpersonal relationships and interpersonal experiences. As such, I find it can go deeply into emotions and psychology. But it doesn't go as deeply into spirituality b/c it just doesn't have the cards to do so.

 

Yes, LN had some spiritual cards -- [Cross, Key, Stars, Lilly, Bouquet all come to mind] but Tarot has 22+ so by nature Tarot has a larger vocabulary for spiritual depth.

 

I also think we find this in the DNA of both decks. LN was always a fortune telling deck. It was never anything else. Tarochhi was invented as a game that had religious and spiritual aspects to it. So the spiritual side of Tarot has always been there -- even when it was just a game.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

2 hours ago, Angband said:

I'd like to hear from Lenormand readers about your experiences working with Lenormand decks when it comes to this sort of thing. Thank you 😀

I agree with @Misterei that it's only partially true.

 

Out of the box Lenormand is more mundane than tarot, but those meanings can be read in other ways. Moon can be about self perception, Mice's loss can be internal or external, mountain (or fox) could be your bad habits, etc. It's basically applying the original meanings in a more introspective way.

 

Modern tarot is definitely more suited to new age style readings, but old world tarot wasn't. Tarocco Bolognese readers seemed to be more concerned about love, sex, rivalry and work than the inner workings of their souls.

Even the majors were reduced down to the most basic meanings. The Sun was day, The Moon night, Chariot was a bed, World was a journey, Magician a child, etc.

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, akiva said:

... Tarocco Bolognese readers seemed to be more concerned about love, sex, rivalry and work than the inner workings of their souls.

Even the majors were reduced down to the most basic meanings. The Sun was day, The Moon night, Chariot was a bed, World was a journey, Magician a child, etc.

It makes sense that as printed decks filtered into the hands of *regular people* [rather than just the intelligentsia] that more direct *fortune telling* meanings would apply. And although everyone says "you mustn't read tarot Sun the same as LN sun" [etc. etc.] I've observed some common themes where Sun and Moon align in Tarot and LN.

 

In the original Tarocchi game, the Trionfi definitely represented a spiritual or religious hierarchy, but most people aren't so concerned with spiritual hierarchies so these meanings must have fallen away.

 

Off topic, but I've always wondered about the Lovers card in original Tarocchi showing an actual marriage whereas Lovers in TdM actually seems to contain more of the alchemical / neoplatonic symbolism [i.e. a choice between the sexy lady or the lady crowned in laurel]. That blows my pet theory out of the water -- which is what I love about Tarot. Just when you think you've figured it out ...

 

Love em or hate em, the Golden Dawn seems to have reintroduced a spiritual / esoteric aspect to the Trumps which perhaps evolved into the modern approach of spiritually reflective readings.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

24 minutes ago, Misterei said:

It makes sense that as printed decks filtered into the hands of *regular people* [rather than just the intelligentsia] that more direct *fortune telling* meanings would apply. And although everyone says "you mustn't read tarot Sun the same as LN sun" [etc. etc.] I've observed some common themes where Sun and Moon align in Tarot and LN.

Personally I don't see the common themes between the Tarot and LN Moon card. I read the Tarot Moon in line with the French saying "entre chien et loup", so more error than fascination for me. But totally see the similarities with tarot/LN Sun, and even Star

 

30 minutes ago, Misterei said:

In the original Tarocchi game, the Trionfi definitely represented a spiritual or religious hierarchy, but most people aren't so concerned with spiritual hierarchies so these meanings must have fallen away.

Either that or they were just everyday images to them? There was a time it wasn't totally uncommon in Italy to see pittura  infamante on the walls, it loses it's edge after a while 🤣

 

36 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Off topic, but I've always wondered about the Lovers card in original Tarocchi showing an actual marriage whereas Lovers in TdM actually seems to contain more of the alchemical / neoplatonic symbolism [i.e. a choice between the sexy lady or the lady crowned in laurel]. That blows my pet theory out of the water -- which is what I love about Tarot. Just when you think you've figured it out ...

I always thought it was Hercules choosing between Vice and Virtue, at least in TdM? 😅

 

I'm not totally clued up on the imagery in most Italian tarot decks, but in the Bolognese tarot book I have it states it's a marriage/wedding. It's also number 5 not 6 in that deck, which fits with the idea of marriage a lot more than 6. Interestingly in the Tarocco Siciliano Trump 5 is Temperance and Love is 8 which both fit with Pythagorean number symbolism so well 😄

[Misterei]

14 minutes ago, akiva said:

Personally I don't see the common themes between the Tarot and LN Moon card. ...

I read tarot Moon different than the norm.

For me it *is* a professional card for some professions [costumers, drag queens, special effects, makeup artists, fantasy writers, etc.]

I also see it as having to do with women, careers involving women, female health matters like monthly cycles, uterous, etc. I did this even before I discovered LN. Moon routinely appeared for me as a career card when I was a dancer and dance teacher [24/7 women, makeup, costumes].

 

Not an exact correlation to LN Moon -- but similar.

 

Of course this depends on context. For many questions I *do* take the more standard Tarot meanings.

14 minutes ago, akiva said:

I always thought it was Hercules choosing between Vice and Virtue, at least in TdM? 😅

Oooh! That hits. I bet you're right.

14 minutes ago, akiva said:

I'm not totally clued up on the imagery in most Italian tarot decks, but in the Bolognese tarot book I have it states it's a marriage/wedding. It's also number 5 not 6 in that deck, which fits with the idea of marriage ...

YES! Totally. Hierophant as #5 has messed me up for years. Although i finally reconciled by saying Hierophant is the legal/religious marriage and Lovers is the Alchemical Marriage.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

5 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I read tarot Moon different than the norm.

For me it *is* a professional card for some professions [costumers, drag queens, special effects, makeup artists, fantasy writers, etc.]

I also see it as having to do with women, careers involving women, female health matters like monthly cycles, uterous, etc. I did this even before I discovered LN. Moon routinely appeared for me as a career card when I was a dancer and dance teacher [24/7 women, makeup, costumes].

 

Not an exact correlation to LN Moon -- but similar.

 

Of course this depends on context. For many questions I *do* take the more standard Tarot meanings.

That's interesting, is the reason you see Moon this way because of astrology?

 

6 minutes ago, Misterei said:

YES! Totally. Hierophant as #5 has messed me up for years. Although i finally reconciled by saying Hierophant is the legal/religious marriage and Lovers is the Alchemical Marriage.

It's definitely not my favourite either, the way I reconcile it is that The Pope is the uniting force between man (2, receptive) and source/god (3, active) 🤣

[Misterei]

4 hours ago, akiva said:

That's interesting, is the reason you see Moon this way because of astrology?

It was organic at first. Moon came up as a career card for me before I got deeply into astrology. It happened over and over again that Moon wasn't malefic in my career spreads. It was neutral or even benefic. Which was perplexing but I went with it. I started reading it that way for myself and people who had careers similar to mine vis a vis fantasy and illusion as part of your job or people in all-female work settings. As I got deeper into astrology it resonated as the Moon ruling women and work with women, but that came later.

4 hours ago, akiva said:

It's definitely not my favourite either, the way I reconcile it is that The Pope is the uniting force between man (2, receptive) and source/god (3, active) 🤣

Ah! Good way to put it.

[tarotnottaken]

Circling back to this thread to say thank you for your insights. It seems that there's room to amplify the standard LN readings with more introspective ones but not to nearly the same extent as tarot. I guess I'm a dirty new age reader. 🙂

[akiva]

1 hour ago, tarotnottaken said:

Circling back to this thread to say thank you for your insights. It seems that there's room to amplify the standard LN readings with more introspective ones but not to nearly the same extent as tarot. I guess I'm a dirty new age reader. 🙂

There's definitely plenty of room to add bits in. If I remember rightly there's German decks out there with sigils, planets and signs, etc. So embrace your dirty new age reading ways! 😁

 

Do you have any ideas on amplifications you'd like to make to the Lenormand deck? I'd love to hear about them! I've found while the traditional approach has made a great stepping stone, there's no progression outside of itself, does that make sense? 

[Brandy]

I talk to my cards on occasion. Not just asking questions but talking over things that worry me or are otherwise on my mind and just to see I will lay the cards out in a 5 card spread. Sure enough. They listen and they do reply back.

[tarotnottaken]

On 11/30/2024 at 9:35 PM, akiva said:

There's definitely plenty of room to add bits in. If I remember rightly there's German decks out there with sigils, planets and signs, etc. So embrace your dirty new age reading ways! 😁

 

Do you have any ideas on amplifications you'd like to make to the Lenormand deck? I'd love to hear about them! I've found while the traditional approach has made a great stepping stone, there's no progression outside of itself, does that make sense? 

I’m afraid I have nothing cooking for amplifying the deck itself, but I am trying to wrap my head around using it for a purpose similar to tarot — more on the divining end of the spectrum than fortune-telling. From what I can tell it seems to firmly sit in the latter camp and I would be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by doing otherwise. 
 

I even found the subreddit r/deeplenormand that tries to do this exact thing, but it’s a dead community. (Telling?)

 

Lenormand seems to be more prescriptive than descriptive due to the blunter, more hard-line nature of the card meanings, like the Gypsy Witch deck that it inspired, or Kipper cards. That doesn’t mean that there’s no room for introspection, but you need to stretch that rubber band harder than you would in a tarot or possible even playing card cartomancy reading.
 

Could be WAY off base here, but that’s my impression.