I find this line hard to delineate. I'm not a psychologist--yet sometimes the cards DO illustrate psychological blocks in a client. And that block or schema is relevent to their question. 

Couple that with the evolution of psychology and spirituality / divination as bedfellows throughout history. In past, one went to a priest or other spiritual advisor for what we might call "psychological" problems. Then Freud came along and suddenly after thousands of years of history--psychology was a Science. Not mystical at all, thank you very much.

In the 2000s?

It's coming around full circle. First the Jungians flirting with tarot or astrology. Now in the 2020s Tarot and astrology have mainstreamed and "life coaching" is a thing. I also i dislike the moniker "life coach". But the popularity of this concept is a sign of the times.

I also think the sharp line dividing the "science" of psychology from "superstitions mysticism" of tarot was always artificial. It's never been so cut and dried as 20th century science tried to make it. We can measure the span of bridges. yay science! We can never measure the span of human emotions. Psychology never was a hard science and never can be. There is a ghost in the machine. 

I'm not sure I followed your distinction between "casual" and "clinical". ???

On the most obvious level, of course i'm not going to attempt to diagnose a personality disorder from a tarot reading. I'm not the DSM. OTOH pop psychology has become intertwined with modern language and culture. As a child and young adult I thought Narcissis was a character from Greek mytholody. Yet today, everyone and their brother talks about narcissists. My gods, it's so ubiquitous it gets abbreviated to "narc" in online forums. Which is confusing because i come from the era where a narc was a narcotics officer. But I digress.

Meanwhile i engage clients with whatever level of pop psychology terms they're comfortable with. Some, not at all. Others respond well to it and it helps them open up and connect with the reading.

3 hours ago, Misterei said:

I find this line hard to delineate. I'm not a psychologist--yet sometimes the cards DO illustrate psychological blocks in a client. And that block or schema is relevent to their question. 

 

Couple that with the evolution of psychology and spirituality / divination as bedfellows throughout history. In past, one went to a priest or other spiritual advisor for what we might call "psychological" problems. Then Freud came along and suddenly after thousands of years of history--psychology was a Science. Not mystical at all, thank you very much.

In the 2000s?

It's coming around full circle. First the Jungians flirting with tarot or astrology. Now in the 2020s Tarot and astrology have mainstreamed and "life coaching" is a thing. I also i dislike the moniker "life coach". But the popularity of this concept is a sign of the times.

 

I also think the sharp line dividing the "science" of psychology from "superstitions mysticism" of tarot was always artificial. It's never been so cut and dried as 20th century science tried to make it. We can measure the span of bridges. yay science! We can never measure the span of human emotions. Psychology never was a hard science and never can be. There is a ghost in the machine. 

 

I'm not sure I followed your distinction between "casual" and "clinical". ???

On the most obvious level, of course i'm not going to attempt to diagnose a personality disorder from a tarot reading. I'm not the DSM. OTOH pop psychology has become intertwined with modern language and culture. As a child and young adult I thought Narcissis was a character from Greek mytholody. Yet today, everyone and their brother talks about narcissists. My gods, it's so ubiquitous it gets abbreviated to "narc" in online forums. Which is confusing because i come from the era where a narc was a narcotics officer. But I digress.

 

Meanwhile i engage clients with whatever level of pop psychology terms they're comfortable with. Some, not at all. Others respond well to it and it helps them open up and connect with the reading.

My point - which I thought was obvious - is that the vast majority of tarot readers aren't licensed psychotherapists, psychoanalysts or psychologists and really shouldn't be doing this sort of thing, particularly for people who need professional help. I did the "pop" astrology and tarot thing for the better part of 40 years, but when I returned to active practice in 2011 I decided to position myself as an action-and-event-oriented diviner (aka fortune-teller) and also took up classical natal and horary astrology and Lenormand reading, all of which are more literal. None of it is "social parlor game" stuff for me, its a serious mystical/metaphysical/esoteric pursuit, and, for a variety of reasons, I don't feel comfortable messing with anybody's head at the level of most walk-in readings. I've never been convinced that tarot is especially useful for mind-reading and psychological profiling anyway; the former is a guessing-game and the latter is best served by natal astrology. By "clinical" I meant the formal analytical approach of the psychotherapist, while "casual" is everything else.

I think a lot of problems stem from social culture, some of them stem from soul and karma. Then there's some that are serious biological malfunctioning.

People can go to a psychologist who has learned from books, follows a standardised route of this or that 'therapy' and still not be helped. Indeed, sometimes those very people can make the person feel worse and feel that they will never heal. Psychologists are telling us to conform too, you know.

If we're dealing with a person's soul, and I would say that in every situation we are. And if we are dealing with social culture that says this or that is wrong about a person, or that a person must conform to a norm. Well, is it any wonder that the evils people perpetrate on one another and take no responsibility for (likely as a result of being programmed to a conformist model), cause damage and need rectification?

Tarot readers may not be counsellors or professionally trained, but the desire to help and just accept the person in front of us and allow them to be vulnerable and open up, that is healing in itself.  Ideally we'll be guided by what the cards say and the human being that's being human in front of us.

My fear is no-one (well not many) wants to or strives to understand anybody. If you've ever been misunderstood you'd understand the damage it can do and how healing it is to be understood and accepted.

Books and academia just repeat old ideas. Dare I say it's a bit like your Thoth, it's a prescribed flow chart sort of process. We should all bring some new learning to the table. Thoth was Crowley's work, what is every other individual bringing to the table. We may be miraculous healers but be outcasts and never do the miracles. Not sure if that is a coherent response or not 😄

"My in-person readings are intended to be mutually stimulating, never dry, one-way dissertations, and if I must work remotely I try to make my written offerings just as conversational in tone. This is my main reason for arguing that tarot reading is best approached as a face-to-face activity. I want to look my clients in the eye across the table and read their reaction from that contact, I want to hear the telltale confirmation or refutation in their voice along with the visible feedback from any body language they exhibit. By “taking the pulse” of the session (and making sure that it has one) I can deliver the best experience possible.

Remaining alert for such nuances, I can easily judge whether sitters are uncomfortable, hesitant, skeptical or hopeful in their posture, permitting me to tailor the narrative to speak most effectively to their perceived state of mind. I’m perfectly willing to gently call them out if it looks like they are unjustly “stonewalling” me at every turn, just as I endeavor to encourage them if I think they’re getting close to seeing my point. It can require psychological persuasion, communication skill and divinatory acumen rolled into one, and it’s not something an educational pedigree or government license can bestow."

- This - is exactly how I feel and how I like to read @Barleywine  (you are a far more advanced reader than I - however, happily - I am still effective with what I address, and otherwise enjoy my ongoing journey as a Tarot student)

"People can go to a psychologist who has learned from books, follows a standardised route of this or that 'therapy' and still not be helped. Indeed, sometimes those very people can make the person feel worse and feel that they will never heal. Psychologists are telling us to conform too, you know.

Tarot readers may not be counsellors or professionally trained, but the desire to help and just accept the person in front of us and allow them to be vulnerable and open up, that is healing in itself.  Ideally we'll be guided by what the cards say and the human being that's being human in front of us."

- Case in point @JoyousGirl - my sister-in-law lost her 1st baby (years ago now), tried so many therapies - nothing worked.

And then, her doctor tentatively suggested a Tarot reader (I kid you not!).

That worked.

BAM!  🙂

15 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

Books and academia just repeat old ideas. Dare I say it's a bit like your Thoth, it's a prescribed flow chart sort of process. We should all bring some new learning to the table. Thoth was Crowley's work, what is every other individual bringing to the table. We may be miraculous healers but be outcasts and never do the miracles. Not sure if that is a coherent response or not 😄

 

I disagree about the Thoth. It's remarkably impressionistic and fluid when used with sensitivity, and the artwork of Harris (especially the color palette) often speaks louder than Crowley's words. It reads much like the TdM when it comes to the minor cards.

22 hours ago, Barleywine said:

... the vast majority of tarot readers aren't licensed psychotherapists, psychoanalysts or psychologists and really shouldn't be doing this sort of thing, particularly for people who need professional help.

Hmm. I guess i don't follow what "this sort of thing" means. i never attempt to diagnose a mental health condition as a psychologist would--but at some point it gets awkward to avoid any use of psychological terms which have organically worked their way into popular parlance. It's much more direct to ask a client if there's an "addiction problem" rather than dance around trying to avoid the word "addiction" when we all know what it means--psychologists or not. 
And certain card combinations are going to make me ask if addiction is a factor.

22 hours ago, Barleywine said:

I did the "pop" astrology and tarot thing for the better part of 40 years, but when I returned to active practice in 2011 I decided to position myself as an action-and-event-oriented diviner (aka fortune-teller) ...

I don't know what the "pop astrology and tarot thing" means. Do you mean using tarot for psychological analysis rather than predictions?
I also consider myself a fortune teller or old skool diviner.

Yet i don't find being an old skool fortune teller excludes using "pop psychology" terms [which I define as psychology terms that have worked their way into popular culture]

In the 1800s i might have spoken about a cleint's "melancholia" Today we call it 'feeling drepressed" or "suffering from depression". In the 1800s we might have spoken of hysteria or anxious nerves. Today we call it anxiety. i don't know that a fortune teller can read cards without using these words or touching upon these topics. Whether we call it "melancholia" or "depression" these experiences are part of the human condition. They come up in readings.

17 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

People can go to a psychologist who has learned from books, follows a standardised route of this or that 'therapy' and still not be helped. ...

This is an interesting point. I was mis-diagnosed with depression. Doctors scratched their heads when drugs didn't work on me. But of course the drugs didn't work because it wasn't depression. Ironically, I might have done better had i been diagnosed with "melancholia" and sent for a "rest cure".

LOL people are so worried a tarot reader might misdiagnose someone [this is real--no one should practice medicine without license] but doctors routinely mis-diagnose people, too. 

We also don't allow for the grass roots aspect of real life as real people live it.

Not everyone has money to access psychology professionals.

Thus folk modalities arise such as the Zaar ritual in North Africa and the Middle East. Or modern iterations such as IFS, parts work or shadow work which lend themselves to a DIY self-help approach -- accessible on minimal finances. That tarot readers may wander in these realms of folk-healing and self-help practices is natural. it is only modern litigious society which attempts to supress this blurring of the lines. In the Zaar ritual, a diviner determines which demons need to be placated--the ritual itself placates them. This is an natural template for folk healing as mixing divination with healing rituals. I suspect Zaar ritual has prevented su^cides for women who might never have access to psychiatrists or anti-depressants.

7 hours ago, Tanga said:

- Case in point @JoyousGirl - my sister-in-law lost her 1st baby (years ago now), tried so many therapies - nothing worked.

And then, her doctor tentatively suggested a Tarot reader (I kid you not!).

That worked.

BAM!  🙂

Yep. Human beings managed to survive with diviners, fortune tellers, gurus, and priests for thousands of years before "psychology" was invented.

Are we saner or happier as a species now that modern psychology has come along to "save' us? 

2 hours ago, Barleywine said:

I disagree about the Thoth. It's remarkably impressionistic and fluid when used with sensitivity, and the artwork of Harris (especially the color palette) often speaks louder than Crowley's words.

That may be so for you as a reader with some study. However, if you were to show the image to the sitter, would they see the image as a mirror of them? Would they see clearly in the image something that identifies them and their situation and says "your story is as old as time - you are not alone - you are seen"? A brief a-ha moment and sense of inclusion in the all-that-is?

Today we say "Are you OK?" on one day a year. But many of us never really want to know the real answer to the question or to deal with it if it comes up. This is reflected in our daily greeting of "How are you?" in common polite conventions. Many roll their eyes if they get an honest answer. Do we wonder why people are getting diseases? Only those who don't want the honest answer.

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

It's much more direct to ask a client if there's an "addiction problem" rather than dance around

This is the social culture problem I mentioned earlier. In mental health first aid we have to ask outright "Are you considering s---ide?" 

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

it is only modern litigious society which attempts to supress this blurring of the lines.

THIS is key. Someone can go to school, go directly to university and get a degree, then another degree and be considered a professional with the status and knowledge and power to manage things in people's lives they have no experience of. How can acquiring a piece of paper possibly mean you are more capable of healing or are the only acceptable source of healing? Never been homeless, unemployed, depressed, addicted, anxious, traumatised, sexually assaulted, gay, disfigured, isolated, or any of the other things that may introduce gremlins into the mind and then the body? Because they have a list of questions to ask people so that they can offer a sterile DSM label? 

8 hours ago, Tanga said:

my sister-in-law ... tried so many therapies - nothing worked.

This shows other tools are required. Something in her soul needed reconciling. She needed closure. Run-of-the-mill checklists don't give individualised care. "In such-and-such situation apply that. If that doesn't work try this". There's no feeling into it and going with the gut or spirit. If we are spirit we need spirit.

Parsifal asked the Fisher King "What ails you?"  

I think that's what Tarot readers / psychics and mediums do. Maybe that should be the first question we ask when someone sits across from us. Sometimes they just want fortune telling, but a lot of the time people want help. I know the first time I went to a medium I was in desperate need of help. 

If the police won't help, and the psychologists don't help? We need to go back to basics. 

8 minutes ago, JoyousGirl said:

 

That may be so for you as a reader with some study. However, if you were to show the image to the sitter, would they see the image as a mirror of them? Would they see clearly in the image something that identifies them and their situation and says "your story is as old as time - you are not alone - you are seen"? A brief a-ha moment and sense of inclusion in the all-that-is? 

 

Those few who have asked me to read for them with it have definitely seen what you're talking about. But the thing that keeps me from using it more in public sessions is the card titles. I don't want to have to explain what Lust" means in commonplace terms or why "Debauch" was used instead of "Debasement." Crowley's sexual innuendo is often too much.

14 hours ago, Misterei said:

 

We also don't allow for the grass roots aspect of real life as real people live it.

Not everyone has money to access psychology professionals.

Thus folk modalities arise such as the Zaar ritual in North Africa and the Middle East. Or modern iterations such as IFS, parts work or shadow work which lend themselves to a DIY self-help approach -- accessible on minimal finances. That tarot readers may wander in these realms of folk-healing and self-help practices is natural. it is only modern litigious society which attempts to supress this blurring of the lines. In the Zaar ritual, a diviner determines which demons need to be placated--the ritual itself placates them. This is an natural template for folk healing as mixing divination with healing rituals. I suspect Zaar ritual has prevented su^cides for women who might never have access to psychiatrists or anti-depressants.

There are indeed more "traditional folk" approaches to mental health still being applied today - that work (who is Jung again?🙃).

And one modern iteration/DIY, that I've attended myself is The Landmark Forum (there are many variations on this type of format). Worth every penny and so much more interesting (and open to the development of social links, due to group participation) than sitting opposite a psychologist/therapist in a clinical room, engaging in the conventional modern call-and-response scenario.

I tried really hard to convince my husband to join me whilst I was on this Landmark Forum - but he insisted it was "navel gazing".  Such a shame. If he had attended with me - perhaps, years later - he would not have then been forking out for couples counselling for us (I had to wait until he conceived of the idea himself 🙄. - which took quite some years 🙄🙄. Suggesting it myself would never have worked). And it would have been much more fun too.

11 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

1) Today we say "Are you OK?" on one day a year. But many of us never really want to know the real answer to the question or to deal with it if it comes up. This is reflected in our daily greeting of "How are you?" in common polite conventions. Many roll their eyes if they get an honest answer. Do we wonder why people are getting diseases? Only those who don't want the honest answer.

 

2) This shows other tools are required. Something in her soul needed reconciling. She needed closure. Run-of-the-mill checklists don't give individualised care. "In such-and-such situation apply that. If that doesn't work try this". There's no feeling into it and going with the gut or spirit. If we are spirit we need spirit.

 

3) I think that's what Tarot readers / psychics and mediums do. Maybe that should be the first question we ask when someone sits across from us. Sometimes they just want fortune telling, but a lot of the time people want help. I know the first time I went to a medium I was in desperate need of help. 

 

1) Yes. Which is why I sometimes find the question rather irritating. To 'be polite' - a standard greeting is How are You? - but mostly people don't really want to know the detail - especially if you are not doing so well. Then they cannot cope with the detail that the question entails, and then -  you have to filter your response so as not to tax them... which then... uurgggghh!

Quite frankly, 'the stiff upper lip' is lying by omission and I find it ...challenging🤔  (I'm not English - I have a muted Latin & African temperament - people are louder and more expressive there).

2) Absolutely. The "I kid you not" was me being amazed that a G.P. dared to suggest Tarot. I wanted to know who that G.P. was and applaud them.

3) Yes. "How are you"  - is "What ails you" - isn't it?

On 10/28/2025 at 8:23 AM, Barleywine said:

But the thing that keeps me from using it more in public sessions is the card titles. I don't want to have to explain what Lust" means in commonplace terms or why "Debauch" was used instead of "Debasement." Crowley's sexual innuendo is often too much

Corsets were 'in' at the time of Crowley. Literally and metaphorically. He was certainly a trail-blazer in letting it all hang out - the reality of being human. We tend to only tell our closest friends about our toilet troubles, but they are part of being human. Lust and debauch indicate facts, they're a part of our experience but to not speak of them is de rigueur. You're wearing the corset of social culture. Interestingly, probably part of the reason you love Crowley is likely because he lived his humanity publicly - he was (mostly?) honest as well as smart and studious. All that stuff he was doing was for the most part behind closed doors up until then. What a beast to show his undergarments! Wild. 

Probably your cards do need to come out in public because explaining Lust and Debauch would convey a sense of the overwhelmed-with-endlessly unsatisfiable desire-filled human - a salivating, grinding groined animal that seeks-hunts-wants (but with all the glamour, now a much worse beast than our ancestors).  We no longer openly defecate to feed the soil, much less speak of such 'inelegant' animal activities.  Because we want to think better of ourselves and achieve a superficial status. We hide all that is seemingly wrong with us and get neurotic about it - when it's just normal, but we're shackled. (But then there's those who are totally consumed by the lie and programming - a much sicker and more dangerous beast for the environment although completely unawares of it) The court of public opinion has a lot to answer for. No wonder Jesus spat the word hypocrisy with such disgust. We need to bare our undergarments to make the world better - personally and environmentally. Get out your Thoth, and revel in its wildness (and that of your sitter) so it's not a wilderness.

14 hours ago, Tanga said:

3) Yes. "How are you"  - is "What ails you" - isn't it

Not quite. "How are you?" elicits a silent "what is wrong with you?!?" if you answer it honestly 😆. So they're asking the question, but not with sincerity or hear.  Now it's so prevalent in standard fare - I often hear people answer "good" when a different question has been asked. This reveals the automation - and automatons that we are becoming. 

"What ails you?" Or some variation of it that we might devise here in this conversation is more searching and sincere. It is healing because it turns the table on the lack of care we're displaying. 

So what are alternatives?  "How is your soul today?"  Or perhaps asking "How are you - REALLY" is acceptable? But I think we need to inquire into people's souls more. So alternatives:

"What's going on in your world?"

"How is life treating you?"

Please offer some suggestions - I think we could all do a wealth of good.

Going back to the counselling question. This may be how we go about getting directions from the sitter's soul the minute they sit down. And we can then proceed to the crossroads faced by the client as indicated in the cards. Whether the client shuffles or not, we can ask for guidance in where we can best help them.

7 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

1) Not quite. "How are you?" elicits a silent "what is wrong with you?!?" if you answer it honestly 😆. So they're asking the question, but not with sincerity or hear.  Now it's so prevalent in standard fare - I often hear people answer "good" when a different question has been asked. This reveals the automation - and automatons that we are becoming. 

 

"What ails you?" Or some variation of it that we might devise here in this conversation is more searching and sincere. It is healing because it turns the table on the lack of care we're displaying. 

 

2) So what are alternatives?  "How is your soul today?"  Or perhaps asking "How are you - REALLY" is acceptable? But I think we need to inquire into people's souls more. So alternatives:

 

"What's going on in your world?"

"How is life treating you?"

 

Please offer some suggestions - I think we could all do a wealth of good.

 

 

 

1) Hair splitting! 🙃.  How are you - is  'What ails you' OR  'What is wrong with you' in my book. Perhaps that's why I find it so irritating.

2) What's on your mind today?

How have you been, and how can I help you?

How is everything going right now for you?