TdM readers - thoughts on the Ancient Italian Tarot by LoS?

[GreatDane]

First, I will preface this by saying I am NOT a TdM reader, but got this deck because I liked it visually. 

 

I had had some of the trad primary colored TdM's and thought were very lovely, but wasn't connecting with them.

 

Do you see the Ancient Italian as just TdM style, not really TdM?  Does it appeal to you if you read with more the trad TdM's?  

 

For someone not really that familiar with TdM's, was just wondering your thoughts.  

[vulprix]

Hi @GreatDane!

 

The Ancient Italian Tarot by LS is loved with a special passion by a number of TdM readers online and one I know in-person. They cite its beauty as its particular draw. I can definitely see that 🙂 

 

I would call it a descendant of TdMs and would refer to it as a “TdM deck” even if others thought that was a bit loose. The thing is that the standard 78-card, non-scenic pip tarot decks didn’t even really have their *origin* in Marseille, so the term itself is pretty widely applied to begin with.

 

I personally prefer the Conver-like Marseille decks which more closely adhere to peoples’ expectations for what makes a TdM. But it’s not a contest for what is the “truest.” 🙂 

 

I wouldn’t call a modern pip deck a TdM unless it followed the similar floral/decorative motif to intentionally designed pips though. For example, the 007 Tarot, Tarot Familiars, or one of LS’s many decks of this type. I would call it a “pip deck” in that instance.

[GreatDane]

Thank you, vulprix!  That was extremely useful!  

 

I did have a Camoin/Jodo deck and thought the cardstock, the images were great, but it wasn't really very talkative to me.  I am really an RWS reader, how I started and I like it.  But then I saw the Ancient Italian and thought could be an ENTRY way into seeing how I might get on with more trad TdM decks.  

 

I particularly liked your last paragraph!  Makes total sense. 

[fire cat pickles]

Technically it is a "tarocchi", which is just Italian for tarot cards. TdM obviously is Tarot de Marseille. Being an Italian deck it won't makes too much sense to call an Italian deck French, no? But as a matter a convenience I generally refer to historical decks as being in the "TdM" category. The word "style" (as in "TdM-style") is normally assumed during the course of a casual conversation. Historians can get a bit touchy about it. Most laypersons, like me, don't care too much. 

[katrinka]

I just say "pip decks." *shrugs*
 

[GreatDane]

I put decks in terms of RWS, TdM, Thoth just for my reference generally.  So the Ancient Italian FELT more TdM because of the pip cards and seemed like an easier way to get used to TdM.  I see the difference, the Italian, the French, etc. so I think more in terms of style, how I read and pips seem more TdM style to me, even it it's a kind of sub group, if that makes sense.  I get what Fire Cat Pickles and Katrinka are saying.  Definitely not just like classic or trad TdM, pip cards.   Just was wondering for people who like to read TdM more than, say, RWS, they would see the Ancient Italian kind of like they do TdM and read them basically the same way. 

[vulprix]

1 hour ago, GreatDane said:

Just was wondering for people who like to read TdM more than, say, RWS, they would see the Ancient Italian kind of like they do TdM and read them basically the same way. 

The designs on the Ancient Italian pips themselves actually bear close resemblance to "Marseille" decks!  I think the difference really comes in with the majors and courts.  Due to their intricacy and realism in the Ancient Italian Tarot, they "communicate"/flow with the pips in a very different way than the simpler, bolder designs of like a Conver or Chosson would.

[GreatDane]

SO AGREE, which is why it feels easier for me, coming from RWS, vulprix!   I thought would be an easier transition with the Majors and Courts more familiar.  It is a pretty cool deck, whatever it falls under 🙂   

[Mi-Shell]

I do not have the Ancient Italian, but I do have a very dear relationship to its origin, the original Soprafino Tarot deck

here is a little about, what I write about it:

The original Soprafino Tarot is very special to me, as it represents a little family history:

My grandmother Elizza (1869 to 1956) had one and used to read with it.

Remembering seeing this deck when I was a little girl and looking at the old worn out frayed cards together with my mother and my maternal cousin is ultimately, what brought me to Tarot. 

 

https://voicewithinthecards.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/elizza-and-her-soprafino-deck/

 

However, it is VERY different, how Elizza and others of her time read with it:

find a few examples here:

https://voicewithinthecards.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/soprafino-tarot-from-fool-to-cobler/

 

....search for more on my blog... 🙂

 

[katrinka]

Yes. Il Meneghello published a version, as well. IIRC, it was available in several sizes. I have an Il Meneghello. Mine is slightly smaller than a "standard" Tarot. 
While it's not antique or heirloom like MiShell's, it is uncoated so it's not a deck I keep in heavy rotation. But it's beautiful and it reads well.

From the images I'm seeing online, there are some differences in coloration and detail from the LS version:



But I don't know if the differences are due to variations in the color of the original decks, or LS's cleaning and tweaking. As you can see, the Il Meneghello reproduced this thing with stains and all. Maybe MiShell could be of help here.

I do use it in basically the same way as I do TdM for the pip interpretations. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

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On 2/7/2021 at 9:45 PM, GreatDane said:

First, I will preface this by saying I am NOT a TdM reader, but got this deck because I liked it visually.

Beautiful isn’t it? It is my back-up deck for when my Marseille gets a bit too warm.  I use the Tarocco Sopraffino that LS issued as part of their anima antiqua. From memory, that is the Della Rocca (also used in their classic tarot?).  The Ancient Italian comes from a redrawing done by a follower of Della Rocca. Hence the differences.  
 

The tarocco Italiano (that these derive from) is beautiful but rare — it’s thought to be the set used by Yeats, too.

 

The Sopraffino tarots are children of the French patterns. The Italian printers posited them as more authentic but...who knows.  Trump 15 is often missing the satans, and there can be two men and one woman on trump six. Some also just show a tower on trump XVI.  I read the Della Rocca much as I do the Marseille. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Guest

[GreatDane]

What lovely info to post, timtoldrum.   Thank you.   As a fan of Yeats, that is also a great factoid.

 

It IS a lovely deck, which is why, when I am almost exclusively drawn to RWS decks, I decided I NEEDED this one 🙂  

[Guest]

On 2/7/2021 at 1:45 PM, GreatDane said:

First, I will preface this by saying I am NOT a TdM reader, but got this deck because I liked it visually. 

 

I had had some of the trad primary colored TdM's and thought were very lovely, but wasn't connecting with them.

 

Do you see the Ancient Italian as just TdM style, not really TdM?  Does it appeal to you if you read with more the trad TdM's?  

 

For someone not really that familiar with TdM's, was just wondering your thoughts.  

Hi, Dane!

I've been using the Ancient Italian off & on for some years now. When I was studyng the TdM as a system regularly, I found I could switch out any 78-card classical Italian pip deck with much success and elucidation; for me they function in much the same way. As others have said, at this point in tarot's history we see the French Marseille pattern(s) influencing the Italian products, even though the suits came to France via Italy originally. I like a lot of the innovations employed in the trumps in particular. One drawback for me though, is that most of the characters in the

Ancient Italian deck face forward (even appear to look right AT you), as opposed to the more common French profiles, side glances etc. I get less directinal reading, therfore, with the AI deck, than with the Frenchies (and other woodcut decks). Your mileage may vary. 

But! They are a lot of fun to work with, regardless. And I've always loved the palate in this printing, even if it's a little sloppy around the edges. I think some of that is in part due to the possibility that the deck is a blow up; the original I believe is much smaller, more like the Sopraffino, its older sibling. And without realizing that there were multiple card backs in circulation, I managed to pruchase one with the green & white backs which I've also really enjoyed. (For some reason I'm particularly fond of reprinted classical decks with unusual contemproary backs. If they're NICE.)

 

What are some of your other favorite pips style decks, if you have any?

[GreatDane]

Hello mrpants, 

And thank you for the information!  You have MUCH more experience and knowledge re TdM and pip decks than I!  

The Ancient Italian is my only pip deck.  I have really been an RWS reader from the beginning, so by the time I stumbled upon TdM and pip decks, it wasn't an easy shift for me.  Got the Camoin-Jodo deck because I liked the images, cardstock, but wasn't feeling the call to read with it.

Then some years later, saw the Ancient Italian and it felt like a cross between RWS and TdM in a way because so much was illustrated and yet had pip cards.

 

I enjoyed reading your post and look forward to you sharing more info re your reading and fav decks!