This doesn't seem right

[katrinka]

I just got a notification for this kickstarter in my email. While some of the decks might be in the public domain, how is this not 100+ copyright violations? Did he really purchase licensing from all those people, as he claims he did, before the project was even funded?
If you recognize decks by living artists, the right thing to do would be to let them know about this.
 

 

[gregory]

I think I agree - BUT:

 

part made up of cards licensed from other, real-world tarot decks, part made up of cards I or other artists made for the deck, and part made up of standalone cards from older tarot decks, now public domain. 

 

There's no suggestion that anywhere near all of them had to be licensed.

[katrinka]

True. 
But assuming it's an even split, that's still 44 cards to obtain licensing for.
Even just ten would be a lot, especially before going live on KS with no guarantees the project will be funded.

[Guest]

I had understood that just because a deck is in the public domain, a photograph is not necessarily in the public domain — especially for commercial use. 

[katrinka]

That certainly adds another layer of complication.

Someone may be about to learn that the hard way.
 

[gregory]

That's true - but your own scan of a PD card that you own should be OK...

[gregory]

Testing to see if these two posts merge as I need to know for another forum.

 

OK - now I have to go back there and argue with the management !

Edited April 15, 2021 by gregory

[ilweran]

12 hours ago, katrinka said:

True. 
But assuming it's an even split, that's still 44 cards to obtain licensing for.
Even just ten would be a lot, especially before going live on KS with no guarantees the project will be funded.

They credit all the artists, I only had a quick look through but most of them looked like indie decks so probably easier to sort out rights for this sort of thing. It appears to be above board, and I would guess payment for the artists depends on the Kickstarter being funded.

 

It actually looks kinda a cool and they've clearly put a lot of work into it. I'd be tempted if I wasn't a bit skint and if the Touched by the Alleyman option was still available. I could never beat up a deck like that...

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

Or you can get a Patchwork deck from PathFinder... 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, ilweran said:

I would guess payment for the artists depends on the Kickstarter being funded.

 

I've admittedly never tried to license an image, but it's my understanding that you normally pay upfront. Look at the British Museum site, or any of those sites where you can license stock photos.
I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to grant permission to someone who will "maybe pay someday if he gets funded."

[ilweran]

49 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

I've admittedly never tried to license an image, but it's my understanding that you normally pay upfront. Look at the British Museum site, or any of those sites where you can license stock photos.
I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to grant permission to someone who will "maybe pay someday if he gets funded."

It was a guess based on the fact that that at certain funding levels payment to the artists increased.

 

As for the "maybe pay" if the Kickstarter isn't successful there is no deck, unless funding can be got from elsewhere. If the Kickstarter is successful there is a deck and the artists get paid. I suppose it's possible the artists could all be their friends...

 

eta...

At the bottom of all the info it says:

 

Risks and challenges

I've already done all the hard work of getting all these 81 artists on one project, the only risk now is if this project fails, which can happen. But I've faced failure before, and I know that I'll just try again later. No risks here, only a really cool tarot deck!

 

Long-lasting design

This is a collector's item, it will only see one print. If it does incredibly well, there may be a sequel deck, but it is unlikely to contain all of the same cards, if any at all. Contracts were only for this one printing, so now is the time to get this unique deck that will exist nowhere else.

Edited April 15, 2021 by ilweran
Adding extra info

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, ilweran said:

As for the "maybe pay" if the Kickstarter isn't successful there is no deck, unless funding can be got from elsewhere. If the Kickstarter is successful there is a deck and the artists get paid. I suppose it's possible the artists could all be their friends...

They'd have to already be friends, if they have a shred of sanity. Imagine if somebody who wasn't a ride or die friend emailed you cold with a proposition like that. 

But no, he says he paid upfront. Sort of. I did some googling and found this, from sometime before the KS went live:
"I am currently paying up to $100 for licensing, and every contributor gets a free copy of the deck."
https://publishinggoblin.tumblr.com/post/634976107374002176/the-alleymans-tarot-is-a-project-im-putting

So they got a token amount of money and the promise of a deck. "Up to $100".

At the time he wrote the tumblr post, he said this:
"So far I have 40~ artists onboard, with another 20 who are maybes, and another 50 who haven’t yet told me “no,” at the least."

At $100 each, 40 artists works out to $4000. That's a lot of money for licensing for an indie deck that might or might not happen. And 70 more artists he was propositioning. So either he was paying considerably less, or something isn't on the level.

Edited April 15, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

10 hours ago, gregory said:

That's true - but your own scan of a PD card that you own should be OK...

That is interesting. But if someone puts out a facsimile of a PD deck do they not own the copyright? In addition the BM licenses are quite rigorous. 
 

I own a first edition of TdM but I was advised I could not use it in any publication. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

But if someone puts out a facsimile of a PD deck do they not own the copyright?

Like that Michiate Lover card...LS might have a quibble with that if he scanned it from their edition, even if he tweaked it a bit.
 

[Rori]

On 4/15/2021 at 9:21 PM, katrinka said:

Like that Michiate Lover card...LS might have a quibble with that if he scanned it from their edition, even if he tweaked it a bit.
 

It doesn't seem to be the LS card, there are some differences (I highlighted one in the pictures)
I agree that it seems like a HUGE project to take on, but the creator already runs a small publishing company, from what I could tell, so they probably have some experience with copyright law.
I still wouldn't get the deck (130+ cards sound like they would be impossible to shuffle, plus I don't like that not even the backs are consistent - there's no way it would feel like a coherent deck, which is probably the intention, but I even struggle with normal collaborative decks) but it SEEMS legit.

[Havutar]

43 minutes ago, Rori said:

It doesn't seem to be the LS card, there are some differences (I highlighted one in the pictures)
...
I still wouldn't get the deck (130+ cards sound like they would be impossible to shuffle, plus I don't like that not even the backs are consistent - there's no way it would feel like a coherent deck, which is probably the intention, but I even struggle with normal collaborative decks)

Well, but it could be from a previous Minchiate edition by LS, I think they had at least one before the current "Anima Antiqua" version.

However, the author (curator?) seems to understand copyright, they showed up on r/tarot asking people for recommendations for cool cards people feel should be in the deck so that he could contact the author of those decks and ask for the cards to be included. So at least he's not one of those delusional types who believe that an image enters public domain when it's shown to the public via uploading it to the internet 🙄 Even though paying 100 for a commercial license of an image like this is a bargain. But maybe many of the creators feel it's free advertising for their decks? Like being included in an anthology or group exhibition or something?

 

I have to confess I'm a bit surprised with how popular the project is. It's not coherent at all, especially with the backs all different - but a lot of people seem to think it's a super cool and novel idea, and I've seen people start to organize a card trading circle to get kind of a homemade version.

 

It's also interesting how there seem to be at least a couple decks out with extra alternative cards included so that one can pick n mix the deck they want to use out of the card selection provided - this and Terra Volatile. I wonder if it's an emerging trend?

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Rori said:

It doesn't seem to be the LS card, there are some differences (I highlighted one in the pictures)

Nice sleuthing - but that's because the first photo is a Minchiate Etruria, while the second is a Minchiate Fiorentine. 
The Etruria can be recognized by the shading, while the Fiorentine appears to be a woodcut:

https://www.yumpu.com/es/document/read/17938009/minchiate-ancient-minchiate-etruria-1725-von-lo-scarabeo-antico

https://tarotbg.eu/en/il-meneghello-decks/319-minchiate-fiorentine-florence-1850.html

 

4 hours ago, Havutar said:

Well, but it could be from a previous Minchiate edition by LS, I think they had at least one before the current "Anima Antiqua" version.

Yes, I own the previous LS edition. Again, it's an Etruria, which is different from the Fiorentine. 

 

Probably the only way using a card from the Etruria could be legit is if the person had access to the actual antique deck and made their own copy. Not likely to happen for $100.

 

5 hours ago, Rori said:

but the creator already runs a small publishing company, from what I could tell, so they probably have some experience with copyright law.

 

4 hours ago, Havutar said:

However, the author (curator?) seems to understand copyright, they showed up on r/tarot asking people for recommendations for cool cards people feel should be in the deck so that he could contact the author of those decks and ask for the cards to be included. So at least he's not one of those delusional types who believe that an image enters public domain when it's shown to the public via uploading it to the internet 🙄 Even though paying 100 for a commercial license of an image like this is a bargain. But maybe many of the creators feel it's free advertising for their decks? Like being included in an anthology or group exhibition or something?

Knowing something doesn't really translate to being ethical. People do a lot of things knowing that they're breaking laws.
I could see an indie artist with a too-small following licensing an image that cheaply in hopes of getting some promotion. I can't really see LS doing that.

 

4 hours ago, Havutar said:

I have to confess I'm a bit surprised with how popular the project is. It's not coherent at all, especially with the backs all different

Yes, and all those different styles, color schemes, etc. - it's jarring.

 

4 hours ago, Havutar said:

It's also interesting how there seem to be at least a couple decks out with extra alternative cards included so that one can pick n mix the deck they want to use out of the card selection provided - this and Terra Volatile. I wonder if it's an emerging trend?

The idea has been around for awhile. Baba decks sometimes contain an alternate Lovers card. 
But that's not the same as this. This is a Frankentarot. 

 

 

[Rori]

16 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Nice sleuthing - but that's because the first photo is a Minchiate Etruria, while the second is a Minchiate Fiorentine. 
The Etruria can be recognized by the shading, while the Fiorentine appears to be a woodcut:

 

....

Knowing something doesn't really translate to being ethical. People do a lot of things knowing that they're breaking laws.
I could see an indie artist with a too-small following licensing an image that cheaply in hopes of getting some promotion. I can't really see LS doing that.
 

 

Well in that case, I agree with you - that doesn't seem right at all. No way would LS sign off on that. I guess we'll see what happens once the kickstarter ends.

 

As for the question of whether or not it's ethical, I'm with you on that. Paying an artist $100 (or a bit more, I think some of the stretch goals were for higher payments) for a deck you end up making half a million dollars on, I definitely wouldn't call that ethical. I generally feel kind of iffy about flat rate schemes for licensing fees. Royalty percentages seem like a much fairer option, especially since it seems they're working with a lot of indie artists.

[Niobium]

This is the same publisher who's handling the gold and silver Normal Tarot editions, which really look nice and I'm quite looking forward to them. I feel like, when it comes to the indie artists (as opposed to the PD cards), this isn't much different than the 78 tarot projects--which isn't to say what he paid is reasonable, but it also seems to be roughly the same idea from a logistics perspective. 

 

The PD cards, well, that's a thorny situation I agree. I don't care for multi-artist decks so I seldom buy them anyways. We'll have to see how this turns out.

[Rodney]

In an update from the creator today, he's removing a card from the deck because he's now pretty certain that it's not a public domain image. The artist has passed away so he can't license the image from the artist. Apparently the "old" cards come from the Gallica museum website. I'm not clear whether or not those are considered public domain images or if he licensed them from the museum. But the creator seems to be intent on protecting copyright and doing right by the artists. Speaking of which, because the campaign has done so well, each artist is getting an extra $1200 over and above whatever the original license fee was.

[katrinka]

Thanks for checking on that, Rodney! 🙂
I went and had a look at the update. He DOES talk as if he's scrupulously mindful of copyright. He might even be telling the truth, who knows?
I guess we'll find out when the deck is released. Either there will be backlash, or there won't. 

[dust]

I really like this concept! Not so much as a reading deck because it sounds so big and the different styles would bother me, but as a cool art piece and as a sampler of deck styles. I'd get it if I could afford it!

 

I don't think this is necessarily suspicious. There's lots of public domain works that are made freely available (or available with some generous conditions) by the institutions who have them in their collection, so he's probably in the clear if he's being mindful of that. If he's willing to pull a card because it wasn't in the public domain after all, I'd take that as a sign that he's being careful.

 

The best way to check would be to ask the (newer, still living) artists. If they're willingly participating they'll be able to confirm it and if they're not, they'll probably want to know sooner rather than later.

 

(Note: I'm not saying whether he's lying or telling the truth either way, just that it doesn't sound wrong to me per se, but that it really would be best to ask participating artists or give them a heads up if you're worried.)

Edited July 6, 2021 by dust
making my post clearer