Lenormand as a language

[Guest]

8 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

For some reason, it seems to help the attendees start seeing the language of the Lenormand cards. 

That's one of the reasons I liked it so much. 

[Guest]

What about climate change? 

 

I'd go with the Clouds (representing the climate, but also, something being dampened, getting worse) + the Garden (the world at large, a concept I took from Caitlín Matthews) + the Mice (a sense of erosion and destruction). 

 

What do you think about it? How would you include the responsible for this (mankind) on this faux-spread? 

[Guest]

I associate the Clouds with the atmosphere and pollution. Paired with the Coffin it can show devastating effects.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Paired with the Coffin it can show devastating effects.  

I can see that, but wouldn't it be such a final thing, like the utter destruction of the atmosphere? I hope the climate change (for the worse, at it's been) can and shall be changed, if we take the appropriate measures. Blame the optimist in me. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

I can see that, but wouldn't it be such a final thing, like the utter destruction of the atmosphere? I hope the climate change (for the worse, at it's been) can and shall be changed, if we take the appropriate measures. Blame the optimist in me. 

From my understanding, it is a case of slowing things down over decades. We can all do our part (going vegan, reducing plastic, and so on) but it is a serious times up moment. 

[Guest]

Going optimistically, what about a medical breakthrough?

 

I’d have the Key (for "the answer") + the Tree (health) + the Sun (success, victory).

 

We do need more medical breakthroughs in this pandemiac time. 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

Going optimistically, what about a medical breakthrough?

 

I’d have the Key (for "the answer") + the Tree (health) + the Sun (success, victory).

 

We do need more medical breakthroughs in this pandemiac time. 

Definitely. The Sun + the Book + the Key has cropped up a few times. It shows a clear diagnosis and treatment plan that works.

[Guest]

On 5/1/2021 at 7:08 PM, timtoldrum said:

Definitely.

Reassuring! Thanks!

[Guest]

I was wondering if Lenormand, itself, could be represented by the Book, or, maybe, by the combination of the Book + the Letter. In fact, Tarot or any cartomantic system could be represented as that, I guess. 

 

I'm not so sure about Runes, as they are often stones or engraved in wood chips. The same applies to Ogham, with its staves and wood chips. 

 

What would you guys use to represent the above-mentioned?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

I've never had the subject of the cards come up in a card reading. They seem loathe to break the fourth wall. 😁

I have seen the cards identify people as readers - their card followed by the Stars. It doesn't always mean that (they could have aspirations, or be into astronomy and science) but when it does it's because the Stars stand for astrology and other things people tend to think of as "esoteric". So I suppose the deck could be Letter + Stars. 

It's possible Book could be in there someplace, but I would think of Book more as hermetic Tarot, what with the Golden Dawn's secrets, Crowley's erudition, etc. Lenormand requires study too, but it's not an initiatory occult tradition with endless tables of correspondences, etc. 

But I'm guessing. I've never asked Lenormand about Lenormand decks. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

It's possible Book could be in there someplace, but I would think of Book more as hermetic Tarot, what with the Golden Dawn's secrets, Crowley's erudition, etc. Lenormand requires study too, but it's not an initiatory occult tradition with endless tables of correspondences, etc.

I see what you mean. Maybe I inferred cartomancy could be as hermetic because of my own relation of it. I still consider myself a student of it, so most of the times, it's guarding its secrets from me. 

 

6 minutes ago, katrinka said:

because the Stars stand for astrology and other things people tend to think of as "esoteric"

Although I can totally understand this perception, I can't help but think of it as odd. For me, if it's esoteric, it doesn't mean it's unreachable or unteachable, albeit aspirational. It's just presently unknown, and we can learn it (whatever it is) if we commit to it. It can take time, but it's feasible. But, it's my own experience, not a rule, of course. 

 

9 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I've never had the subject of the cards come up in a card reading. They seem loathe to break the fourth wall. 😁

About the questions to the cards, well, that's what I usually do. I ask. The cards, the runes, the Ogham sigils, they bring me answers back. I guess my fourth wall is a bit more permeable because of my insistence in poking it with my questions.

 

Thanks for your input @katrinka.

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, fabfranco said:

Although I can totally understand this perception, I can't help but think of it as odd. For me, if it's esoteric, it doesn't mean it's unreachable or unteachable, albeit aspirational. It's just presently unknown, and we can learn it (whatever it is) if we commit to it. It can take time, but it's feasible. But, it's my own experience, not a rule, of course. 

I don't know where you're getting that. I certainly never said it was "unreachable and unteachable." People teach it and learn it all the time.
There is something very basic about the cards that you seem not to be comprehending. Yes, the Stars are aspirations. They are ALSO esotericism, night, etc. That doesn't mean you have to view esotericism and night as they relate to aspirations, or reconcile them somehow with aspirations. They're just drawn from the essence of Stars. 

 

 

[Albadawn]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

the Stars are aspirations. They are ALSO esotericism, night, etc. That doesn't mean you have to view esotericism and night as they relate to aspirations, or reconcile them somehow with aspirations. They're just drawn from the essence of Stars. 

 

 

When I first came across Lenormand, it felt a lot like how the character Lyra reads the alethiometer in the ‘His Dark Materials’ series. There’s a passage in the first book, Northern Lights, where she tries to describe how she interprets the symbols. She compares it to climbing up and down the rungs of a ladder: each “rung” being an interpretation, unique in its own right, but all part of the same ladder - all derived from the same symbol. So they are connected without necessarily having a direct correspondence beyond the symbol itself. 
 

By contrast there are loads and loads of correspondences in RWS tarot that are very esoteric and drawn from the Golden Dawn amongst other traditions. Numerology, astrology, Qabalah etc linking all across the deck like an enormous web. 
 

So in my brain, Lenormand card interpretations are “vertical” (all derived directly from the symbol on the card itself), whereas tarot interpretations are much more “horizontal” (spanning across many different systems, all of which require study in their own right to get the most out of them, and all interacting with each other all at once). 
 

That at least is how I mentally consider the difference between them. ☺️

[Albadawn]

Anyway back on topic and away from my meta ramblings 😂

 

How about a doctor?

 

MAN + FISH + TREE (+ TOWER?)

 

He makes his money working in the health industry/a hospital. 

Or maybe it should be 

 

MAN + FOX + TREE

Since he’s clever and knows things about the body other people don’t. 
 

I’d love to hear if this works! I’m still practising putting combinations together 😅

[stephanelli]

22 minutes ago, Albadawn said:

When I first came across Lenormand, it felt a lot like how the character Lyra reads the alethiometer in the ‘His Dark Materials’ series. There’s a passage in the first book, Northern Lights, where she tries to describe how she interprets the symbols. She compares it to climbing up and down the rungs of a ladder: each “rung” being an interpretation, unique in its own right, but all part of the same ladder - all derived from the same symbol. So they are connected without necessarily having a direct correspondence beyond the symbol itself. 
 

By contrast there are loads and loads of correspondences in RWS tarot that are very esoteric and drawn from the Golden Dawn amongst other traditions. Numerology, astrology, Qabalah etc linking all across the deck like an enormous web. 
 

So in my brain, Lenormand card interpretations are “vertical” (all derived directly from the symbol on the card itself), whereas tarot interpretations are much more “horizontal” (spanning across many different systems, all of which require study in their own right to get the most out of them, and all interacting with each other all at once). 
 

That at least is how I mentally consider the difference between them. ☺️

Oh my, this is a such a great analogy (and just helped a few things click into place for me!)

Thank you for writing this!

[Guest]

The Tree + the Hound is a doctor or health professional for me. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

I don't know where you're getting that. I certainly never said it was "unreachable and unteachable." People teach it and learn it all the time.

Oh, sorry, if it seemed that I said it was you, I meant that esotericism usually is seen like that. At least, here in Brazil, it is - kind of a gift for the chosen few. I truly didn't mean that it was your words, it was my perception. I tend to go from particular to the whole. I'm sorry.

 

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

They're just drawn from the essence of Stars. 

I can understand that now.

 

4 hours ago, Albadawn said:

 

So in my brain, Lenormand card interpretations are “vertical” (all derived directly from the symbol on the card itself), whereas tarot interpretations are much more “horizontal” (spanning across many different systems, all of which require study in their own right to get the most out of them, and all interacting with each other all at once). 

Thank you for bringing up that analogy. Very helpful!

 

As for the doctor, in my readings, it was represented twice as the Man + the Tree. I can see where the Fish fits in, with a certain jocularity ('he's there for the money') and where the Dog fits in, with optimism ('she's dedicated to caring'). I think it depends on the situation, it could be both.

 

 

[Albadawn]

Ah so the Dog in this case would be like a helper? Someone who is on your side, working for you? That makes sense!

[Guest]

@Albadawn As an aside, here in Brazil, we have what we call 'benzedeiras' or 'rezadores' (blessers and prayer people) who, in a similar fashion as witch doctors of Africa, pray, bless, and use smoke and herbs to help people in their treatments. They're usually shunned by more educated people as superstitions and useless practitioners, but for the most of the poor people they're widely employed. Some other people, disillusioned in their treatments for terminal illnesses, seek these types of witch doctors a lot.

 

In those cases, I would see something like the Man + the Tree + the Stars.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Guest
Typo

[katrinka]

7 hours ago, Albadawn said:

When I first came across Lenormand, it felt a lot like how the character Lyra reads the alethiometer in the ‘His Dark Materials’ series.

 

That's a known and noted analogy - and a good one.
The alethiometer even has 36 symbols and was most likely inspired by Lenormand. The similarities have been noted and talked about for some time. Here's something Chanah said in response to a question on whether a card can mean more than one thing in the same reading:

"Ooh yes, indeed. One card can indeed be involved in more than one storyline, as can a combo. That’s one of the fascinating (and frustrating) things about Lenormand.

Have you read Philip Pullman’s Northern Lights? I believe it’s called The Golden Compass in the States. If you haven’t, there’s this wonderful clockwork device with 36 symbols (does this sound familiar?) and three hands – and the hands spin to three symbols, which can be interpreted on any number of levels. In the book, there’s one girl who can seem to find the right meanings, whilst the couple of other readers spend their time looking up the meanings, but having to guess which ones apply.

In Lenormand, you often have to decide which ONES apply, as people’s lives tend to have more than one issue going on at the same time."

(For those who would like to know more, go here: http://lenormanddictionary.blogspot.com/2013/05/stranger-than-fiction.html )

 

Quote

There’s a passage in the first book, Northern Lights, where she tries to describe how she interprets the symbols. She compares it to climbing up and down the rungs of a ladder: each “rung” being an interpretation, unique in its own right, but all part of the same ladder - all derived from the same symbol. So they are connected without necessarily having a direct correspondence beyond the symbol itself. 

 

Exactly. The interpretations branch out from the emblem, but they don't "touch" (for lack of a better word) each other. "Parallel lines that never meet", like the rungs of a ladder.
Think of the Rider - not every active, well dressed young man can bring news, be a gay partner AND a woman's paramour, and have issues with his feet, knees or ligaments. 
 

Quote

By contrast there are loads and loads of correspondences in RWS tarot that are very esoteric and drawn from the Golden Dawn amongst other traditions. Numerology, astrology, Qabalah etc linking all across the deck like an enormous web. 
 

So in my brain, Lenormand card interpretations are “vertical” (all derived directly from the symbol on the card itself), whereas tarot interpretations are much more “horizontal” (spanning across many different systems, all of which require study in their own right to get the most out of them, and all interacting with each other all at once). 

 

It's very different from hermetic Tarot - no tables of correspondences or secret occult orders, lol. 
So different that this old AT thread surprised me when I saw it, but it's actually about getting into the optimum state of mind for reading. Nobody notes any other similarity between the alethiometer and Tarot - they can't, it's obviously Lenormand-inspired.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=66139

No one mentions Lenormand, I don't think they were very familiar with it. Someone even remarked "I always thought that a nice little oracle deck could be made. A card for each of the 36 symbols." Ummm.... 😁

Edited May 4, 2021 by katrinka

[Albadawn]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

 

That's a known and noted analogy - and a good one.
The alethiometer even has 36 symbols and was most likely inspired by Lenormand. The similarities have been noted and talked about for some time. Here's something Chanah said in response to a question on whether a card can mean more than one thing in the same reading:

"Ooh yes, indeed. One card can indeed be involved in more than one storyline, as can a combo. That’s one of the fascinating (and frustrating) things about Lenormand.

Have you read Philip Pullman’s Northern Lights? I believe it’s called The Golden Compass in the States. If you haven’t, there’s this wonderful clockwork device with 36 symbols (does this sound familiar?) and three hands – and the hands spin to three symbols, which can be interpreted on any number of levels. In the book, there’s one girl who can seem to find the right meanings, whilst the couple of other readers spend their time looking up the meanings, but having to guess which ones apply.

In Lenormand, you often have to decide which ONES apply, as people’s lives tend to have more than one issue going on at the same time."

(For those who would like to know more, go here: http://lenormanddictionary.blogspot.com/2013/05/stranger-than-fiction.html )

 

 

Exactly. The interpretations branch out from the emblem, but they don't "touch" (for lack of a better word) each other. "Parallel lines that never meet", like the rungs of a ladder.
Think of the Rider - not every active, well dressed young man can bring news, be a gay partner AND a woman's paramour, and have issues with his feet, knees or ligaments. 
 

 

It's very different from hermetic Tarot - no tables of correspondences or secret occult orders, lol. 
So different that this old AT thread surprised me when I saw it, but it's actually about getting into the optimum state of mind for reading. Nobody notes any other similarity between the alethiometer and Tarot - they can't, it's obviously Lenormand-inspired.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=66139

No one mentions Lenormand, I don't think they were very familiar with it. Someone even remarked "I always thought that a nice little oracle deck could be made. A card for each of the 36 symbols." Ummm.... 😁

 

Thanks for this @katrinka! I hadn't seen that other post making the same analogy - it's reassuring to know I'm thinking along the right lines. It's been a long time since I read the book, I didn't remember that it had 36 symbols. Surely not a coincidence...!

[Albadawn]

1 hour ago, fabfranco said:

@Albadawn As an aside, here in Brazil, we have what we call 'benzedeiras' or 'rezadores' (blessers and prayer people) who, in a similar fashion as witch doctors of Africa, pray, bless, and use smoke and herbs to help people in their treatments. They're usually shunned by more educated people as superstitions and useless practitioners, but for the most of the poor people they're widely employed. Some other people, disillusioned in their treatments for terminal illnesses, seek these types of witch doctors a lot.

 

In those cases, I would see something like the Man + the Tree + the Stars.

 

So in those cases, Stars would be the "blessings" aspect? Just making sure I follow! 🙂

[katrinka]

9 minutes ago, Albadawn said:

I hadn't seen that other post making the same analogy - it's reassuring to know I'm thinking along the right lines. It's been a long time since I read the book, I didn't remember that it had 36 symbols. Surely not a coincidence...!

 

And there's a Sun, Moon, Serpent, Anchor, Tree...plus others that have been changed some, like Baby rather than Child, a Walled Garden, and Bird instead of Birds. 
Still others are unrelated, like Beehive and Griffin. But that's how fiction works. I agree it's all too much to be a coincidence. 

And yes, you're on the right lines - it's cool that you found this little signpost with no one pointing it out!

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Albadawn said:

So in those cases, Stars would be the "blessings" aspect? Just making sure I follow!

Yes, I think so. I was thinking about the "esoteric" kind of influence they have too. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, fabfranco said:

Man + the Tree + the Stars.

Yes. Maybe the Hound rather than the Gentleman?