If it's not, what is it?

[Guest]

Based on the idea that the Tower does not mean bureaucracy, which card (or combination of them) would mean that?

 

The Tower is said to mean buildings of high importance, including courthouses and government buildings.

 

How to express bureaucracy, officialdom and even hierarchy, using the Tower? Similarly, how to represent the establishment, and all sorts of hierarchical systems, the “order” of things? 

 

Is there a need for another card to convey these ideas? If so, which ones?

 

And, because I'm talking about the Tower: can it signify aloofness? What about chain-stores? 

 

[SolHealingLightTarot]

I think you can combine either The Emperor or The Hierophant card to signify bureaucracy. Both of these cards represent some kind of authority and structure. It depends on the context of your reading. Are you looking at bureaucracy in terms of structure? Then it's The Hierophant. If it's authoritarian power, then it's The Emperor. Then tune into the energy and see if they empower your reading.

 

To me, aloofness doesn't describe The Tower. It's more like the ego of self. The crown on top of the tower represents that aspect, and the thunder striking it down would represent the destruction of the ego.

[HOLMES]

Cailtlin calls the tower beaucratic.

So by itself at least using that system it is what is.

Andy b while doesn't mention beauacy 

I think it is implied by all the offical stuff.

 

Ot you mean if the tower didn't show but there is beucracy involved?

I think the answer would be if there's no tower, then the focus would be on something else 

 

Like the person asks about job, but instead the cards focus on romance

Which does happen a lot and vice versa.. 

 

At this time i do not see tower as stores.. though obivously could be a big business corporate building.

[HOLMES]

Just now, Nostrasonus11 said:

I think you can combine either The Emperor or The Hierophant card to signify bureaucracy. Both of these cards represent some kind of authority and structure. It depends on the context of your reading. Are you looking at bureaucracy in terms of structure? Then it's The Hierophant. If it's authoritarian power, then it's The Emperor. Then tune into the energy and see if they empower your reading.

 

To me, aloofness doesn't describe The Tower. It's more like the ego of self. The crown on top of the tower represents that aspect, and the thunder striking it down would represent the destruction of the ego.

 

Pardon, but was refering to lenormand cards, a differnt system 

[SolHealingLightTarot]

13 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

 

Pardon, but was refering to lenormand cards, a differnt system 

Lol, I completely forgot. When I see The Tower, I immediately went to Rider-Waite :))). I haven't worked with Lenormand cards yet, but it's definitely something I will look into XD 

[DownUnderNZer]

 

I see Tower as government and anything official, but it can also be institutes, hospitals, real estate and large corporations (I think) or is that mid size. Will have to think on it - I think large.

 

Aloof? It can mean that a person prefers to be by her or himself for sure, also, that a person might have been single for a long time. 

 

As for a chain of stores - maybe Fish would cover that one as it does deal with trade and commerce and a chain of stores would fit with the image of a school of fish maybe. 

 

Hierarchy or status?

 

If looking at people: 

 

Tower can be about egos and a superiority complex, the Sun can be about those high up like a CEO with an Alpha type personality, the Stars can be someone famous or well known, the Moon can be about someone that is reknown and well acclaimed in her/his field/career and the Key can be about someone of importance with a charasmatic and very magnetic character.

 

But Fish is likely your best bet for a chain of stores depending on how you view Fish.

 

DND 🌞

 

[Guest]

Hi @fabfranco

 

The House and the Park cards are the two main place cards.  

 

Of these two, the House refers to our personal property and private/membership groups or organisations we belong to.  In contrast the Park is more open but also subject to the electorate.  
 

Generally, the paired card tells us the nature. If the Park falls with the Birch Rod you would have a court, prison and so on. The Bear would indicate a local authority and bureaucratic institutions.  
 

If the High Tower is present also one has a Supreme Court (Park - Birch Rod - High Tower) or the federal senate and chamber of deputies (Park - Bear - High Tower). It is the highest level. 

 

Over time, the High Tower has often been advocated as legislative bodies or even healthcare in itself.  But this is demonstrative of poor understanding of function and the image’s history, or just repeating cliches.  Hospitals are places for people (Park) who are ill (Coffin). Unless one is sectioned you can self-discharge.  They are not isolated institutions not a border.  I’ve worked in the NHS for 19 years. It is a combo I see a lot.  
 

Unless you’re in an autocratic or fascist regime, the High Tower doesn’t fit. The High Tower is singular. Governments are not single even if there is a president. 

The High Tower alone with the Park will often indicate a site of historical importance or old landmarks or land boundaries.

 

 The Park - Cross - High Tower can indicate a cloistered religious order in contrast to a church or open religious order (Park - Cross). 
 

Chains of business is the Park and Fishes*. Of course, that is also banks. The Park + Fishes is really more for the business owner.  
 

You would then look for a clue on the nature of the business by the card with the Park. 
 

*Mary Marco associated the Fishes with self-employment, entrepreneurs and also the military.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Guest
Typo

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Nostrasonus11 said:

I think you can combine either The Emperor or The Hierophant card to signify bureaucracy. Both of these cards represent some kind of authority and structure. It depends on the context of your reading. Are you looking at bureaucracy in terms of structure? Then it's The Hierophant. If it's authoritarian power, then it's The Emperor. Then tune into the energy and see if they empower your reading.

 

To me, aloofness doesn't describe The Tower. It's more like the ego of self. The crown on top of the tower represents that aspect, and the thunder striking it down would represent the destruction of the ego.

But it's not Tarot. It's Lenormand. No Emperor or Hierophants here.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, HOLMES said:

Cailtlin calls the tower beaucratic.

So by itself at least using that system it is what is.

Andy b while doesn't mention beauacy 

I think it is implied by all the offical stuff.

 

Ot you mean if the tower didn't show but there is beucracy involved?

I think the answer would be if there's no tower, then the focus would be on something else 

 

Like the person asks about job, but instead the cards focus on romance

Which does happen a lot and vice versa.. 

 

At this time i do not see tower as stores.. though obivously could be a big business corporate building.

Caitlín always gets me confused. She seems to point to a total different direction most of the times.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, DownUnderNZer said:

Aloof? It can mean that a person prefers to be by her or himself for sure, also, that a person might have been single for a long time. 

 

I thought the aloofness came to be because of the distance and isolation that the card implies. Too far-fetched, perhaps?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Hi @fabfranco

 

The House and the Park cards are the two main place cards.  

 

Of these two, the House refers to our personal property and private/membership groups or organisations we belong to.  In contrast the Park is more open but also subject to the electorate.  
 

Generally, the paired card tells us the nature. If the Park falls with the Birch Rod you would have a court, prison and so on. The Bear would indicate a local authority and bureaucratic institutions.  
 

If the High Tower is present also one has a Supreme Court (Park - Birch Rod - High Tower) or the federal senate and chamber of deputies (Park - Bear - High Tower). It is the highest level. 

 

Over time, the High Tower has often been advocated as legislative bodies or even healthcare in itself.  But this is demonstrative of poor understanding of function and the image’s history, or just repeating cliches.  Hospitals are places for people (Park) who are ill (Coffin). Unless one is sectioned you can self-discharge.  They are not isolated institutions not a border.  I’ve worked in the NHS for 19 years. It is a combo I see a lot.  
 

Unless you’re in an autocratic or fascist regime, the High Tower doesn’t fit. The High Tower is singular. Governments are not single even if there is a president. 

The High Tower alone with the Park will often indicate a site of historical importance or old landmarks or land boundaries.

 

 The Park - Cross - High Tower can indicate a cloistered religious order in contrast to a church or open religious order (Park - Cross). 
 

Chains of business is the Park and Fishes*. Of course, that is also banks. The Park + Fishes is really more for the business owner.  
 

You would then look for a clue on the nature of the business by the card with the Park. 
 

*Mary Marco associated the Fishes with self-employment, entrepreneurs and also the military.

Thank you, @timtoldrum But can you clarify some things, please?

 

1) When you say the House and the Park are the two main place cards, and I could envision both right away (indoors vs. outdoors), what are the others, in your viewpoint?

 

2) What do you mean the Park is "subject to the electorate"? Could you please elaborate on the terms?

 

3) So, for bureaucracy idea itself, the Lenormand representation would be Bear + Park or the other way around?

 

4) If there is a poor understanding on the Tower's image history, why tax office is mentioned as one of the things Tower stands for? It doesn't seem important to me, not at least, here in Brazil, where there are dozens of them in almost every big city.

 

5) Government, in your viewpoint, should be Garden + Bear (democratic, welfare state) or Garden + Whip (dictatorial), right? No middle ground? 

 

6) Does the Cross as a religious symbol include paganism? Wouldn't it be more akin to the Tree perhaps? And should we include all organized religions (Islamism and his subdivisions, Shintoism, Umbanda + Candoblé, Allan Kardec's spiritualism, Buddhism and its myriads of paths, Hare Krishna, Hinduism, etc.) into the Cross too? I feel the symbol too "Jewish-Christian" to encompass all of these, and too negatively heavy also. A light on this would be very welcome.

[HOLMES]

13 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

Caitlín always gets me confused. She seems to point to a total different direction most of the times.

 

Looking at her meanings they are broad covering a wide range of possibilities for each card.

Which is great as it is intended to be a complete book on the subject. 

So best to take one book for your bible for now, or school of thought. 

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

*Mary Marco associated the Fishes with self-employment, entrepreneurs and also the military.

I'm racking my brain to try to figure out why on Earth the Fish would stand for the military. Except for a shcool of piranhas or a group of sharks, I cannot envision fishes preparing for war, adopting Sun-Tzu-like bellicose positions or planning to overcome the enemy in the field. 

 

Some authors really complicate stuff.

 

By the way, I would say that the Fish would only compose the idea of military as meaning 'multitude' or 'a lot of', but I would have to use another card (and now I cannot think of one) to mean the bellicose/warlike group. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

 

Looking at her meanings they are broad covering a wide range of possibilities for each card.

Which is great as it is intended to be a complete book on the subject. 

So best to take one book for your bible for now, or school of thought. 

 

 

Indeed. And if you asked me, for possibilities of choice of words, I wouldn't take her. Maybe Rana George, but not Mrs. Matthews. 

[katrinka]

42 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

I thought the aloofness came to be because of the distance and isolation that the card implies. Too far-fetched, perhaps?

 

Allow me to butt in:

Towers like the ones pictured in the cards were built as a lookout where people watched for the approach of enemies. So isolated, yes, but not aloof. The occupants were ever ready to engage. 

The Tower might describe someone who is isolated and also aloof, but the aloofness is incidental, it's not a function of the card, at least the way I read it. That would be like having the Tower come up describing a loner who wears Doc Martens and saying "Tower people wear Doc Martens."

 

29 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

When you say the House and the Park are the two main place cards, and I could envision both right away (indoors vs. outdoors), what are the others, in your viewpoint?

I'm not sure why you're asking this? Cards like the Roads and the Mountain can obviously refer to places.

Also, the House can also refer to the outdoors. Property includes the lot as well as the house. And the House is always pictured from the outside.
If you contrast the House with the Living Room in Kippers, you can see the difference. Living Room is more intimate, and has extremely quick timing since the event it refers to is "in the room." 

 

29 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

What do you mean the Park is "subject to the electorate"?

"Electorate" is defined as "all the people in a country or area who are entitled to vote in an election." A park is a public space.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

Hi @fabfranco. I apologise for being unclear.

 

3 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

1) When you say the House and the Park are the two main place cards, and I could envision both right away (indoors vs. outdoors), what are the others, in your viewpoint?

The House and the Park are the main two place cards as in denoting a place.  Cards such as the Cavalier, Boat, the Fishes and the Anchor can be read as locations such as a car, bus or the beach.  But this is less frequent. 

 

7 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

What do you mean the Park is "subject to the electorate"? Could you please elaborate on the terms?

If you are doing a reading on an election, the Park would be the voters.  It is subject to the people.

 

11 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

So, for bureaucracy idea itself, the Lenormand representation would be Bear + Park or the other way around?

The Park + the Bear would be the organisation.  The other way round would be either a bureaucrat or rather the role fulfilled.

 

13 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

If there is a poor understanding on the Tower's image history, why tax office is mentioned as one of the things Tower stands for? It doesn't seem important to me, not at least, here in Brazil, where there are dozens of them in almost every big city.

More than any card, the High Tower has seen its traditional significations changed to fit a specific re-identification. Most see it as a castle or some dungeon. So it took on such associations as hospitals, governments and officials. 

It is, however, not a seat of power but a tower-house. It is for looking into the distance.  It is shown as a far older structure  than the other buildings. That is why it was associated with a long life. The association with widowhood also comes from there.
 

Of course, you can read it however you like. If it your tax office, go on.

 

30 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

5) Government, in your viewpoint, should be Garden + Bear (democratic, welfare state) or Garden + Whip (dictatorial), right? No middle ground? 

 

If it a dictatorship, then I would want more than just the Birch Rod.  
 

32 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

Does the Cross as a religious symbol include paganism? Wouldn't it be more akin to the Tree perhaps? And should we include all organized religions (Islamism and his subdivisions, Shintoism, Umbanda + Candoblé, Allan Kardec's spiritualism, Buddhism and its myriads of paths, Hare Krishna, Hinduism, etc.) into the Cross too? I feel the symbol too "Jewish-Christian" to encompass all of these, and too negatively heavy also. A light on this would be very welcome.

 

The Cross signifies all religions. It’s pairings would indicate the denomination: Cross + Star is Judaism, the Cross + Tree for neopaganism, and so on.  
 

 

[Guest]

@katrinka thank you for 'butting in'. But allow me:

 

3 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I'm not sure why you're asking this? Cards like the Roads and the Mountain can obviously refer to places.

I'm asking because I didn't understand. Otherwise, I wouldn't ask. I'm very attentive to the words written here, as, for double reasons (English is not my mother tongue and Lenormand is so enmeshed in lots of false symbolism and precarious interpretations of the real symbolism) that sometimes I need to clarify what's written. Maybe it's easy for you, but pardon my denseness. 

 

Saying that, thank you for pointing out that Roads and Mountain can be places too. Bodies of water, like lakes, rivers and nearby places like beaches would then be a combination of Ship and Anchor with one of those, I reckon?

 

7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

f you contrast the House with the Living Room in Kippers, you can see the difference. Living Room is more intimate, and has extremely quick timing since the event it refers to is "in the room." 

As we don't mix Tarot with Lenormand, would it be wise to mix Kipper with it, although there are similiarities? For me it would be like saying that you can speak Portuguese but you, in fact, are using Spanish vocabulary. Quite the same, but not exactly and the message frequently gets truncated. 

 

So, if the House can be seen as outdoors, what's indoors, purely in Lenormand? Two cards for outdoors seems a contrasensical use of the elegant system so far...

 

10 minutes ago, katrinka said:

"Electorate" is defined as "all the people in a country or area who are entitled to vote in an election." A park is a public space.

Thanks again. But what was difficult to me to understand was, chiefly, the use of the contrasting word but in @timtoldrum sentence: "the Park is more open but also subject to the electorate". Should I comprehend that as it's open but some people can still decide who's coming and who's not? Is it that what it's meant? 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

I'm racking my brain to try to figure out why on Earth the Fish would stand for the military. Except for a shcool of piranhas or a group of sharks, I cannot envision fishes preparing for war, adopting Sun-Tzu-like bellicose positions or planning to overcome the enemy in the field. 

 

Some authors really complicate stuff.

 

By the way, I would say that the Fish would only compose the idea of military as meaning 'multitude' or 'a lot of', but I would have to use another card (and now I cannot think of one) to mean the bellicose/warlike group. 

It is because the card is the king of diamonds. Diamonds were associated with soldiers. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

the Park is more open but also subject to the electorate".

The Park is an open place and free to admit. That is because it’s a public place. As we were talking about bureaucracy, I used the term electorate (the public). The people who vote and to whom politicians are supposed to be answerable to.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

@timtoldrum

Thank you for your clarifications.

 

The Tower as a tower-house makes a lot of sense, like a Lighthouse or an American Apache Fort. It's not boundary per se, which I would say the Mountain would be, but I can see it as a look-out post between nations or regions. 

 

8 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

The Cross signifies all religions. It’s pairings would indicate the denomination: Cross + Star is Judaism, the Cross + Tree for neopaganism, and so on.  

I love your explanations, but you make me rack my brain! How would I say Buddhism? Cross + Ship? And Candomble / Spiritualism? Cross + Coffin (gasp! How bad can it be?)

[Guest]

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

It is the highest level. 

@timtoldrum This! It's for me the essence of the adjectivation of the emblem. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, fabfranco said:

The Tower as a tower-house makes a lot of sense, like a Lighthouse or an American Apache Fort. It's not boundary per se, which I would say the Mountain would be, but I can see it as a look-out post between nations or regions. 

 
Tower-houses were often erected at boundaries. When the cards were conceived Germany was not a unified country, but a collection of states and duchies. It thus became associated with boundaries, which can be seen as epochs in time (decades, eras, how we divide history).

 

4 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

15 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

 

I love your explanations, but you make me rack my brain! How would I say Buddhism? Cross + Ship? And Candomble / Spiritualism? Cross + Coffin (gasp! How bad can it be?)

 

I associate the Cross + Fishes with Buddhism. I am not too sure on spiritualism. There is several incarnations and denominations. It could involve the Cross + Stars + Sun/Boat. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, timtoldrum said:

It thus became associated with boundaries, which can be seen as epochs in time (decades, eras, how we divide history).

Whoa, food for thought! You opened a totally new area of perceptions now. Thanks loads!!!

 

2 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

I associate the Cross + Fishes with Buddhism. I am not too sure on spiritualism. There is several incarnations and denominations. It could involve the Cross + Stars + Sun/Boat. 

It makes sense. 

[katrinka]

33 minutes ago, fabfranco said:

@katrinka thank you for 'butting in'. But allow me:

 

I'm asking because I didn't understand. Otherwise, I wouldn't ask. I'm very attentive to the words written here, as, for double reasons (English is not my mother tongue

 

My bad. Apologies.
 

Quote

and Lenormand is so enmeshed in lots of false symbolism and precarious interpretations of the real symbolism)

 

What, how so? The meanings are informed by the essences. Dogs are loyal, foxes are tricky, mountains are tough to cross, etc.
 

Quote

Saying that, thank you for pointing out that Roads and Mountain can be places too. Bodies of water, like lakes, rivers and nearby places like beaches would then be a combination of Ship and Anchor with one of those, I reckon?

 

The Anchor itself can refer to the seaside. 
 

Quote

As we don't mix Tarot with Lenormand, would it be wise to mix Kipper with it, although there are similiarities? 

 

Absolutely not. But comparisons are useful for highlighting similarities and differences, as well as getting a good feel for the german mindset.
 

Quote

So, if the House can be seen as outdoors, what's indoors, purely in Lenormand? Two cards for outdoors seems a contrasensical use of the elegant system so far...

 

The House includes but is not limited to the indoors. With only 36 cards standing in for literally everything, Lenormand has to be stretchy. So the House can represent indoors, but also things like your hometown, home country, personal life, people you live with, real estate, etc. You have to go by context.
 

Quote

Thanks again. But what was difficult to me to understand was, chiefly, the use of the contrasting word but in @timtoldrum sentence: "the Park is more open but also subject to the electorate". Should I comprehend that as it's open but some people can still decide who's coming and who's not? Is it that what it's meant? 

I haven't known anyone to be banned from a public park. If someone is an extreme nuisance or danger, they're generally jailed. More like the electorate decides what to do with the park: they might vote on things like replacing old playground equipment or picnic tables.

It's also helpful to think of an old fashioned commons area, a place where townspeople with tiny yards might bring a few cows or sheep to graze. Some cities still have these, sans livestock. They're generally used as parks now, but the original intent was so that the citizens could have milk, wool, etc. Land held in common. 😉
 

Edited April 28, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The House includes but is not limited to the indoors. With only 36 cards standing in for literally everything, Lenormand has to be stretchy. So the House can represent indoors, but also things like your hometown, home country, personal life, people you live with, real estate, etc. You have to go by context.

Indeed, we have to be observant of how 'stretchy' it can be, but you enlightened me that it's a matter of perspective and, maybe a bad choice of words from me: by indoors, I meant something being looked at from inside-out. By outdoors, from outside-in. Like a film camera, pointing to where the focus is in. The House starts from the innermost and goes from there until it touches what's public and not centered in me anymore. The Garden/Park is the opposite. And I would include the Stars as etheric (the space beyond our comprehension). 

 

I like the interchange of ideas here because I am forced to think about the symbols. As a semiotician, it's a pleasure to do that. 

 

9 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I haven't known anyone to be banned from a public park. If someone is an extreme nuisance or danger, they're generally jailed. More like the electorate decides what to do with the park: they might vote on things like replacing old playground equipment or picnic tables.

I see. But what I was aiming for is the understanding that there is an idea of a privê club, of few members, the chosen few, as a contrasting idea to this publicity of the Park. The cabals, the cliques, etc.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Guest
Words repetition