Brepols Pattern Mysteries

[Guest]

In looking at the Brepols (Jeu Lenormand CM), there remain two "What is that?" mysteries considering the Jack of Hearts and the Moon card.

In the Moon card: The "blank" space behind the mountains; scans from worn-out cards perhaps?

The Jack of Hearts: What does he hold in his hand?

Also: Does anyone know who exactly designed the deck around 1920?

(Brepols Publishing, single artist? Groupwork?)

 

Kind regards

 

[HOLMES]

https://www.amazon.fr/Mini-Jeu-Lenormand-Antique-Poche/dp/B08G8MFGMX

Why i thought this jeu lenormand was the wrong deck.

Edited May 7, 2021 by HOLMES

[Guest]

The Brepols’ Lenormand was first published in 1901.

The initial publication was without verses. These were added in the second edition. The deck had the distinction of being the first to specifically associate career with a card (in the Dutch lyrics).

 

Over time German and English versions were released. Until recently, there were subtle colour differences between the editions.

 

I am not sure what is mysterious. I’ve used the pattern for years. I own antique versions and these are perfectly clear. 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

The deck is a copy of older leanormand dorndorf. 

I saw a clearer image and it is a sword he is holding.

http://www.foolsdog.com/Lenormand/

The moon is clearer, looks like a waterstain to me

Holme, that is the Dondorf not the Brepols. 

[Guest]

@timtoldrum

 

I tried uploading the specific areas in question, it is a hassle, so this has to serve (no advertisment!)

https://www.dame-blanche.com/product-page/jeu-lenormand

Some clicks to the right, the moon card does appear. This is the lesser "mystery": The blank space behind the mountains in the lower left - it has an abstract flair to me.

The bigger mystery is the thing which the Jack of Hearts depicted in the circle is holding in his hand: I have no clue as to what it could be.

 

[Guest]

Hi @treppatey

 

Here are the two cards from a c. 1909 edition.

 

 

These are from the current edition. Since c. 2015, Carta Mundi have standardised the artwork (not the best imho).  
 

 

The knave of hearts I believe is holding a bow. It is one of the curved ones. 
 

The strange thing behind the mountains, was originally textured clouds. Three colours were used: yellow, grey and white. At some point the line drawings were printed in various methods. It did not translate well. 

[Guest]

@timtoldrum

 

That provides some insight.

A bow does indeed make sense, and it matches the expected durability of the lance (J♣) should they be put to use, it is in concord.

The strange thing was already abstract back then, yet to a lesser degree. Flying carreau.

Well, thank you!

 

The last thing would be considering the colour-coding in the courts, yet I fear that would be too far out,

especially because I am still lacking a proper interpretation considering purple and green.

[Guest]

@timtoldrum

Also, you mentioned that the deck was first published 1901 - any leads towards who designed it?

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, treppatey said:

@timtoldrum

Also, you mentioned that the deck was first published 1901 - any leads towards who designed it?

I have never known the artist’s name(s). Brepols would have had several on their books. Unless Carta Mundi retain the archives I am not sure if it could be ascertained.

 

The colours have changed over time depending on the print run. 

[Guest]

So use of the colours is up to the individual.

 

27 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Unless Carta Mundi retain the archives I am not sure if it could be ascertained.

 

I will inquire.

[Guest]

Just now, treppatey said:

So use of the colours is up to the individual.

 

 

I will inquire.

Do you mean colours as in 4 couleurs du jeu cartes?   They remain the same: Le cavalier = neuf de cœur, Le trèfle = six de carreau, and so on. It was set in c. 1799 in the Das spiel der Hoffnung.
 

I was referring to the artwork. The French, Dutch, German and English editions (poems) all had slightly different colour schemes. The German was more saturated and so on. 

I asked Carta Mundi once but it was a long time ago. If you find out let us know. It’s a shame not to know.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

If you find out let us know. It’s a shame not to know.

Sure and true.

 

11 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Do you mean colours as in 4 couleurs du jeu cartes?

No, for that is a mystery preceding the Brepols - what I have concerning that is guesswork, it needs solidification.

 

I was referring to the colour-code instead of the difference in hues/saturation.

 

Specifically, in TdM, there are links provided, in the form of (this is a rude abbreviation) yellow +/- intelligence; blue +/- intuition; red +/- material; white +/- abstract.

In looking at the courts of the Brepols, there is a slight consistency to be found (I did mention this is "far out", did I?), most briefly illustrated by the Kings of ♣ and ♠.

The dominator is shown in red and yellow (reddish yellow, except the crown), the pacifier is shown with red and blue - I still struggle between "beeing on to something" and "beeing out of my mind", it is hard to tell.

Also, purple and green are thrown in the mix, green is known from heraldry, yet purple - Ay, it goes off so easily towards modern esotericism that I feel it might be best to leave it out of the mix.

[HOLMES]

Glad tim could help you, i did a search before posting for jeu lenormand cm, and brought up twice a copy that had old dornorf images so figured i was good to help.  Sorry there trepp the search engine let me down.

 

The missing cloud textures to me in a modern day  looks like the beginning of sunrise hehe

Edited May 7, 2021 by HOLMES

[Guest]

@mxlavender: You have posted the pictures of the heart 'n moon a few posts above as a c.1909 edition.

In my attempt to find out the artist, it was finally possible to converse with a specialist on Turnhout playing cards, who owns a version of the Brepols pattern without the verses. To the best of his knowledge, it is from the first edition of this pattern.

The interesting part is that the back of the cards is the same as the one shown here:

https://thecartomancer.bigcartel.com/product/brepols-lenormand-c-1901-restored-unrestored

 

It features the "EB", which stands for "Etablissement Brepols".

The company itself assured me that they did not use said Emblem before 1911, when it was legally registered.

That much for now.

[Guest]

I have two antique Brepols one from c. 1909 and 1917. Both have verses and neither have the back seen on the verse-less version. The 1917 version has gold corners. The 1909 has quite poor cardstock. 

 

The edition without verses, as far as I am aware, was a limited run.  I understood it was the first but I have been told in the past it was not. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

Both have verses and neither have the back seen on the verse-less version.

Could you share some photographs of them? Especially the 1909 version.

I am sure it would help in the endeavor, for at times it is hard to reason without tangible evidence.

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

 I understood it was the first but I have been told in the past it was not.

The narrative concerning this part would be most useful to know, for the reason given above.

Experts, especially those with a certain standing established, can be surprisingly thick-headed when it comes to new perspectives concerning their field of expertise.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, treppatey said:

Could you share some photographs of them? Especially the 1909 version.

I am sure it would help in the endeavor, for at times it is hard to reason without tangible evidence.

Here is the c. 1909. It is quite fragile and the cardstock is consistent with a playing card deck from the same publisher of the time.

 

I acquired the deck from an antique dealer specialising in playing cards. He also acquired my pre-tulip Grimaud TdM. He dated it as c. 1909. 

This is the later version:

 

 

The cardstock and colours are of better quality.

 

It has gold edges:

 

 

Here is the paper case from a third one from 1917:

 

 

 

3 hours ago, treppatey said:

The narrative concerning this part would be most useful to know, for the reason given above.

Experts, especially those with a certain standing established, can be surprisingly thick-headed when it comes to new perspectives concerning their field of expertise.

On writing my book I had hoped to illustrate it with the Brepols. I contacted Carta Mundi and had several e-mail exchanges.

 

At the same time I acquired two old versions, one being the c. 1909. However, I could not ascertain a definite answer on whether it was in the public domain. 
 

When Vincent’s version came out, I enquired about sourcing one - with the booklet. To date nobody has been able to provide the case or booklet. During that time I was told that it was a limited run and was not the original version.

 

I have no investment in the dates. But it would be nice to know. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

Thank you, @mxlavender.

That should facilitate matters.

I will contact the Turnhout specialist.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, treppatey said:

Thank you, @mxlavender.

That should facilitate matters.

I will contact the Turnhout specialist.

 
You are welcome and I hope it helps.

 

On an aside, the 1917 is definitely dated from the import.
 

The colours are the same in both the gold edged and the one without. There is, however, visible differences between these two and the c. 1909 in colours, card-stock and lettering.
 

I would struggle to see such differences between a deck published after 1911 and before 1917.  
 

On another note I have often thought there could be two artists. Some cards are drawn far better than others. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

On 7/28/2021 at 4:14 PM, mxlavender said:

On another note I have often thought there could be two artists. Some cards are drawn far better than others.

Yes. I call it 'the anchor effect'. When first holding that card, there was this "Wait a moment...".

On the other hand, I am confident that the illustrations of the courts&pips flew from the same feather as the lady and the gentleman.

Also, at least with the anchor, a smaller canvas (or frame) seems to have been utilised for the original picture.

 

On the more lightweighted side of things: At times, it appears to me that "The Adventures of Tintin" might have taken an inspirational push or two from this deck. KoD+KoC = Haddock. Who is a sailor, a drunkard, and a "caster of roaring thunderstorms". As it is somewhat hard to confirm, it is attributed to the amount of land Belgium occupies geologically, thus heightening the probability of inspirational overlap.