So are cats represented by the FOX card or DOG?

[VanEssa]

In questions regarding my own cats, FOX often shows up, not DOG.

And I remember well that Andy B in his book 36 cards mentions cats can show as Fox. 

 

How do you read?

Some reader like to take on the teaching role..

 

Chris Bruder (ardent Rana follower and fan) from a Facebook group: 

 

”VERY Quick Tip on the Difference Between the Fox and the Dog—

I have seen and am currently seeing a lot of readers use the Fox to represent cats because they are and appear cat-like. However, this is an incorrect usage of the Fox for two reasons:
1. Foxes are actually genetic descendants of wolves and dogs (please see attached screenshot of Google search result) from the family Canidae (where we get "canine" from) and specifically from the subgroup "vulpine"; 2. The Dog card is the card to represent a cat, dog, and any other domestic pet as long as that animal is not already spoken for by another card (e.g., the Mice card for a pet mouse, rat, guinea pig, hamster, etc.) because the Dog card is already the foremost representation for a domesticated animal/pet.

So, remember to keep the Fox a fox and to let the Dog cover your pets. 

 

If you start putting different animals to different cards, you run the risk of heavily convoluting the system. The Dog, because it is already the foremost representation of a domesticated animal, is any and all household/domestic pets as long as they are not already represented by another card (e.g., the Mice for a mouse, rat, or guinea pig you keep). If Andy has it in his book that the Fox represents a cat, he is gravely mistaken because foxes are actually not descendants of cats, they are genetic descendants of dogs and wolves. So, to say it can be a cat is actually incorrect on multiple levels of thought.”

Edited June 25, 2021 by VanEssa

[katrinka]

You're right, Andy's right. I never heard of Chris Bruder. It sounds like he's unaware of the tradition of using cat cards to represent falseness. It's not that foxes "appear catlike" (their eyes do, but otherwise they're much more doglike) it's that the card meanings are near-interchangeable. A lot of the old fortunetelling decks feature cats rather than foxes:

 

(We still like to think of cats as devious. Look at all the memes of cats destroying things and plotting to shift the blame to the dog.)
So the Fox card has an association with cats, they express the same concept. (We're looking at cartomantic tradition here, not the order Carnivora splitting into two major groups 54 million years ago, with cats evolving in one group and foxes in the other.)

 

It's prudent to take ardent fans on facebook with a big Grain-O-Salt. 😉

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by katrinka

[VanEssa]

57 minutes ago, katrinka said:

You're right, Andy's right. I never heard of Chris Bruder. It sounds like he's unaware of the tradition of using cat cards to represent falseness. It's not that foxes "appear catlike" (their eyes do, but otherwise they're much more doglike) it's that the card meanings are near-interchangeable. A lot of the old fortunetelling decks feature cats rather than foxes:

 

(We still like to think of cats as devious. Look at all the memes of cats destroying things and plotting to shift the blame to the dog.)
So the Fox card has an association with cats, they express the same concept. (We're looking at cartomantic tradition here, not the order Carnivora splitting into two major groups 54 million years ago, with cats evolving in one group and foxes in the other.)

 

It's prudent to take ardent fans on facebook with a big Grain-O-Salt. 😉

 

 

 

He is a self appointed american “expert”  in the Lenormand groups on Facebook.

He follows Ranas “method” and often mentions that he studied under her. 

https://www.facebook.com/mentorshipbyChris/

 

His reply when people mentioned that cats are read as Fox in some part of Gemany

 

“I also should say, I understand WHY it was a thing in Germany to use the Fox as a cat. However, that thought process was and is flawed for the aforementioned reasons, and there is a better solution at hand. Just because something is tradition does not mean it is without its issues.”

 

Well he likes to write wall-of-text-posts, especeially on the old subjects why Fox is a work card and why Whip (“its repetitive”) is sex….and he is considered a god amongst newbie readers 😉 

 

I m just a bit suprised by him saing AndyB “ is gravely mistaken” and calling German thought process flawed, although most of us know that its a German invention, not American.

 

(Pardon any spelling mistakes, my mother is Danish, my grandmother is German and my father is Swedish, both my mum and grandma were Lenormand readers) 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, VanEssa said:

1. Foxes are actually genetic descendants of wolves and dogs (please see attached screenshot of Google search result) from the family Canidae (where we get "canine" from) and specifically from the subgroup "vulpine"; 2. The Dog card is the card to represent a cat, dog, and any other domestic pet as long as that animal is not already spoken for by another card (e.g., the Mice card for a pet mouse, rat, guinea pig, hamster, etc.) because the Dog card is already the foremost representation for a domesticated animal/pet.

So, remember to keep the Fox a fox and to let the Dog cover your pets. 

If we cannot use the Fox card, because it is a descendant from the Canidae family, why would you use the Hound card?  
 

Rather contradictory, no? 

 

Lenormand is a construct method, e.g. usually, we see the Hound + Fox for cat owners.
 

That is no different to Hound + Serpent for reptile owners or Hound + Flowers for an arachnophile or beekeepers.  But the Fox can and does appear for cats alone. 

 

Last month I wrote an article on the Fox card where I mentioned the card and cats. Although foxes are related to canines, they do share several traits with cats: climb and descend trees, eyes, tongue, whiskers and method of hunting and kill. 
 

Genetics aside, Lenormand is a folklore deck. In folklore, cats and foxes received very similar treatment. Consequently, much of the Fox card’s divinatory value is found in cards showing cats in their Sibilla cousins. 
 

Chris Bruder is entitled to his opinion. But it is best to prioritise cards over opinions. 

 

 

 

[VanEssa]

4 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

If we cannot use the Fox card, because it is a descendant from the Canidae family, why would you use the Hound card?  
 

Rather contradictory, no? 

 

Lenormand is a construct method, e.g. usually, we see the Hound + Fox for cat owners.
 

That is no different to Hound + Serpent for reptile owners or Hound + Flowers for an arachnophile or beekeepers.  But the Fox can and does appear for cats alone. 

 

Last month I wrote an article on the Fox card where I mentioned the card and cats. Although foxes are related to canines, they do share several traits with cats: climb and descend trees, eyes, tongue, whiskers and method of hunting and kill. 
 

Genetics aside, Lenormand is a folklore deck. In folklore, cats and foxes received very similar treatment. Consequently, much of the Fox card’s divinatory value is found in cards showing cats in their Sibilla cousins. 
 

Chris Bruder is entitled to his opinion. But it is best to prioritise cards over opinions. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for taking your time to answer to my post.

 

I totally agree with you, and @katrinka, but I just get so tired all these know-it-all-experts on Facebook stating things as if it was THE truth and not their own, or favourite reader/teachers opinion.

“So, remember to keep the Fox a fox and to let the Dog cover your pets”.

 

But as soon as these wordy teachers are met with contradictory opinions or information they close the post/thread. I am not a great fan of these FB groups, but I read the post with spreads as I would do with a crossword or a puzzle, a bit like a pastime. 

 

But this forum I have found to be a gem, a fountain of knowledge. 

[fire cat pickles]

7 minutes ago, VanEssa said:

 

 

I totally agree with you, and @katrinka, but I just get so tired all these know-it-all-experts on Facebook stating things as if it was THE truth and not their own, or favourite reader/teachers opinion.

“So, remember to keep the Fox a fox and to let the Dog cover your pets”.

 

 

Yes, esp. someone who A) is preaching on Facebook and B) graduated from college in 2021? (This Bruder person is mutual Friends and I looked him up...)

 

I mean, really, how old can you be and how many years of experience can you actually have with Lenormand?

 

I had to quit all of the Facebook Lenormand groups because of the sheer stupidity. It's much better over here. It's definitely not a "grass is always greener" situation. The grass is just greener.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[VanEssa]

28 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Yes, esp. someone who A) is preaching on Facebook and B) graduated from college in 2021? (This Bruder person is mutual Friends and I looked him up...)

 

I mean, really, how old can you be and how many years of experience can you actually have with Lenormand?

 

I had to quit all of the Facebook Lenormand groups because of the sheer stupidity. It's much better over here. It's definitely not a "grass is always greener" situation. The grass is just greener.

 

 

 

I know the feeling…all the time…same same but slightly different… “new to Lenormand and bought (for instance Ranas book) and then “Fox is work, Whip is sex, Snake is kundalini energy and Coffin is transformation”…

 

Thats why I read and puzzle but never post any of my spreads there for someone elses opinion, I dont like people interpreting my spreads with “alternative” card references” (no working Foxes in my spreads, please)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, VanEssa said:

Thank you for taking your time to answer to my post.

It is (for me) an interesting topic. I enjoy looking at the folklore of the cards and their genesis. 

 

1 hour ago, VanEssa said:

I totally agree with you, and @katrinka, but I just get so tired all these know-it-all-experts on Facebook stating things as if it was THE truth and not their own, or favourite reader/teachers opinion.

“So, remember to keep the Fox a fox and to let the Dog cover your pets”.

Based on his logic, I assume he no longer reads the Fox or Fishes as work as a fox is a member of the canine family and a fish is a fish rather than a profession? 

 

1 hour ago, VanEssa said:

But as soon as these wordy teachers are met with contradictory opinions or information they close the post/thread. I am not a great fan of these FB groups, but I read the post with spreads as I would do with a crossword or a puzzle, a bit like a pastime. 

It is a long-standing condition. I left all Facebook Groups. There are no experts — including me. 
 

When Lenormand Thirty Six Cards came out, I got messages telling me where I got it wrong. People like rules and any contradiction to their dogma is wrong. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Guest

[Vesta]

When the Fox turns up in a reading I'm doing for myself, it nearly always turns out to be referring to one of my cats.  It's happened over and over again.

[katrinka]

5 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

If we cannot use the Fox card, because it is a descendant from the Canidae family, why would you use the Hound card?  
 

Rather contradictory, no? 

 

It's also contradictory that he references genetics in an attempt to back this up, but over on his page he relates the Man and Lady cards to debunked left- and right-brained theory. That's bad folklore AND bad science.
 

5 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Lenormand is a construct method, e.g. usually, we see the Hound + Fox for cat owners.
 

That is no different to Hound + Serpent for reptile owners or Hound + Flowers for an arachnophile or beekeepers.  But the Fox can and does appear for cats alone. 

 

Yes!

Dog is a basic catch-all for non-livestock domestic animals, but he's conflated that with a hard rule.
 

1 hour ago, VanEssa said:

This is his reply to a poster (not me) when she mentioned that cats are read as Fox in some part of Gemany

 

“I also should say, I understand WHY it was a thing in Germany to use the Fox as a cat. However, that thought process was and is flawed for the aforementioned reasons, and there is a better solution at hand. Just because something is tradition does not mean it is without its issues.”

 

That statement of his is a classic illustration of this term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

1 hour ago, VanEssa said:

Well he likes to write wall-of-text-posts, especeially on the old favourite subjects why Fox also is a work card and why Whip is the sex card (“its repetitive”)….and he is considered an authority amongst newbie readers 😉 

 

I didn't see more than 12 'Likes' on any of the posts on his page. A number of posts have considerably less, like 3 or 4. LOL.

Still, I don't understand his appeal. even if it's small. Rana has published a book that people can use if they want to learn her way of doing it. If they have questions, she's on facebook just like this Bruder guy is. She's very friendly and approachable - why not learn Rana's style from Rana? Why use a middleman who doesn't even get it?
 

7 hours ago, VanEssa said:

I know the feeling…all the time…same same but slightly different… “new to Lenormand and bought (for instance Ranas book) and then “Fox is work, Whip is sex, Snake is kundalini energy and Coffin is transformation”…

 

Thats why I read and puzzle but never post any of my spreads there for someone elses opinion, I dont like people interpreting my spreads with “alternative” card references” (no working Foxes in my spreads, please)

 

I don't do working Foxes, either. I tolerate other people doing that because They're A Thing in Lenormand and I don't argue over them, but I don't like them. The other stuff is not A Thing. People are trying to make them that, but it's an attempt to make Lenormand New Age with no strife, death, endings, or betrayal. It's a fairly recent phenomenon.
 

8 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

Yes, esp. someone who A) is preaching on Facebook and B) graduated from college in 2021? (This Bruder person is mutual Friends and I looked him up...)

 

Maybe he belongs over on youtube with that newbie lady who "teaches" Lenormand with sock puppets.

 

7 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

When Lenormand Thirty Six Cards came out, I got messages telling me where I got it wrong. People like rules and any contradiction to their dogma is wrong. 

 

They like THEIR rules and dogma, but point out an actual old rule and they'll boot you off their threads or tell you that Germany has a "flawed thought process."
 

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

If we cannot use the Fox card, because it is a descendant from the Canidae family, why would you use the Hound card?  
 

Rather contradictory, no? 

BOOM. TKO. 😁

 

 

[fire cat pickles]

1 minute ago, katrinka said:

9 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

If we cannot use the Fox card, because it is a descendant from the Canidae family, why would you use the Hound card?  
 

Rather contradictory, no? 

BOOM. TKO. 😁

 

9 minutes ago, katrinka said:

It's also contradictory that he references genetics in an attempt to back this up, but over on his page he relates the Man and Lady cards to debunked left- and right-brained theory. That's bad folklore AND bad science.

 

 

Also quite contradictory that this guy's a psychology major, apparently...

 

10 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Maybe he belongs over on youtube with that newbie lady who "teaches" Lenormand with sock puppets.

🤣🤣🤣

[katrinka]

7 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Also quite contradictory that this guy's a psychology major, apparently...

 

Here is the relevant post:
https://www.facebook.com/mentorshipbyChris/posts/116075227148527

Anyone who interacts with him is welcome to post this there:
http://scienceoflearning.jhu.edu/science-to-practice/resources/debunking-the-myth-about-left-brain-right-brain-learning-styles

 

And here is the actual peer reviewed study:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0071275

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It's also contradictory that he references genetics in an attempt to back this up, but over on his page he relates the Man and Lady cards to debunked left- and right-brained theory. That's bad folklore AND bad science.

More armchair research without discernment I guess. 

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Yes!

Dog is a basic catch-all for non-livestock domestic animals, but he's conflated that with a hard rule.

It happens over and over again. 

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

 

11 hours ago, VanEssa said:

This is his reply to a poster (not me) when she mentioned that cats are read as Fox in some part of Gemany

 

“I also should say, I understand WHY it was a thing in Germany to use the Fox as a cat. However, that thought process was and is flawed for the aforementioned reasons, and there is a better solution at hand. Just because something is tradition does not mean it is without its issues.”

 

That statement of his is a classic illustration of this term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Who determines the better solution?  And since when was it in Germany?  
 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

11 hours ago, VanEssa said:

Well he likes to write wall-of-text-posts, especeially on the old favourite subjects why Fox also is a work card and why Whip is the sex card (“its repetitive”)….and he is considered an authority amongst newbie readers 😉 

 

I didn't see more than 12 'Likes' on any of the posts on his page. A number of posts have considerably less, like 3 or 4. LOL.

Still, I don't understand his appeal. even if it's small. Rana has published a book that people can use if they want to learn her way of doing it. If they have questions, she's on facebook just like this Bruder guy is. She's very friendly and approachable - why not learn Rana's style from Rana? Why use a middleman who doesn't even get it?

It is all so derivative.  The Birch Rod, and it being sex because it’s repetitive, is repetitive.  But it didn’t work when the explanation was given 10 to 15 years ago. It just sounds stupid.  
 

I do not know this person. He’s entitled to his view, but it is tedious and patronising. 

[katrinka]

Yes. He's welcome to think all that, and he's welcome to read that way.
I don't like these types pushing bad Lenormand on new readers like Moses coming down from the mountain, though.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes. He's welcome to think all that, and he's welcome to read that way.
I don't like these types pushing bad Lenormand on new readers like Moses coming down from the mountain, though.

No, it is not good. 
 

Essentially, he is saying unlike him countless readers are “flawed.” That is (for me) rude, offensive and and patronising.
 

However, he has failed to look beyond what Google or Wikipedia can tell him of genetics. Lenormand is rich and deep in folklore. The folkloric cat and dog are tied — their behaviour tied them. 

 I wrote about the Fox and cats a few week back. I guess I’m flawed. 
 

But it has reached a point where I find it tiring. 

[katrinka]

He's attempting to discredit what he views as "competition", i.e. a LOT of readers. Maybe most.

 

His page offers dirt cheap tutoring sessions. One of those situations where you get what you pay for.

 

No, scratch that. His students will have their work cut out unlearning this stuff.

Edited June 26, 2021 by katrinka

[VanEssa]

20 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes. He's welcome to think all that, and he's welcome to read that way.
I don't like these types pushing bad Lenormand on new readers like Moses coming down from the mountain, though.

 

Yes, thats ok we are all entitled to a personal opinion, but making sweeping statements like “German thoughtprocees being flawed” or referring to AndyB as “being gravely mistaken”. That’s where I draw the line. I reckon Chris Bruder was still a toddler when A B was reading cards. Hubris

 

He likes to act like a benevolent and knowledgeable tutor spreading his deep understanding of the cards to us. But he doesnt like to be questioned or confronted, then he uses belittling, as in one of the master suppression techniques.

 

He teaches the group: 

 

Chris’s explanation of “The Whip”

THE WHIP –
Next card and probably my last entry for a little while is the Whip. The Whip is one of my favorite cards because of its versatility in meaning. Sometimes it can be negative, sometimes it is just talking about repetition, and other times it is the sex card (for me) if I'm not using Rana George's Bed card from her deck.
Let's talk about the image the Whip evokes. Traditionally, the broom and whip were used as a form of punishment in the old days called "flogging." Multiple flogs to someone's tender skin left bright red marks and sometimes drew blood if repeatedly flogged in the same spot. The Whip was used simply to punish, to reprimand, to torture so that whatever the crime/misdemeanor was it would not be repeated. Therefore, it is a negative card and there is usually a feeling of punishment that comes with it. However, because of its connotation of repetition and physical activity, such as exercise, it is sometimes a more neutral card; the context of your question and the surrounding cards will tell you whether or not it is something more sinister.
The Whip as a negative card talks about • arguments
• fighting
• conflict
• disputes
• aggression
• abuse (physical with Scythe or Cross; verbal with Birds) • name-calling
• bullying
• blaming and finger pointing
• screaming at someone
 
 • passionate in a negative sense
• "heated"
• addiction (especially with Ring, Anchor, or Tree: cards that talk about the FIXED quality of doing that thing over and over and not being able to break that loop)
• something negative, like pain, that keeps coming back
etc.
Under a more neutral context, the Whip's meaning of repetition becomes emphasized, becoming virtually all repetitive activities, some of which are
• verbs that begin with the prefix "re-"
• sex and masturbation (for me)
• physical activity
• exercise and working out
• massaging
• cleaning
• writing and editing (especially with Letter or Book) • going over with a fine-tooth comb
• arguing as in court or on a debate team
• going back and forth on something
• reconsidering something
• doing something again, more than once
etc.
Some use the Lilies as the sex card, I and many others use the Whip as the sex card. Here is why. What I learned about the Lilies when I began with the Lenormand system is that the Lilies card talks about virginity and purity, two things that sex is NOT. But the Whip on the other hand talks about all physical activity and repetitive motions, two things that sex IS. So logically the Whip for me made more sense as the sex card. Of course it is whatever you feel most drawn to at the end of the day, that is most important in your own practice.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by VanEssa

[gregory]

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

Here is the relevant post:
https://www.facebook.com/mentorshipbyChris/posts/116075227148527

 

Screenie please ? Non-FBers (MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE) need to see...

 

[VanEssa]

15 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

Screenie please ? Non-FBers (MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE) need to see...

 

Here is a screenprint: 

[gregory]

Ew. OK - thanks ! I'm sticking with Andy (when was I ever not !)

[fire cat pickles]

LOL "WHIPS = Words that begins with re-"... ok

 

My name begins with "Re". Does that count?

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[Guest]

13 hours ago, katrinka said:

He's attempting to discredit what he views as "competition", i.e. a LOT of readers. Maybe most.

 

True. Perhaps I am naïve in still believing that people can discuss and disagree in a polite manner that encourages debate.

 

For example I do not associate the Birch Rod with exercise and sport. I see exercise as a Cavalier topic because equestrianism is a sport. But I’ve never dreamt of saying Rana’s gravely mistaken. That is rude and belittling. 
 

With regards to the Fox and cats, all I said was:

 

Not natural friends, foxes and cats share several traits and behaviours. Contrary to the Fox and the Crow fable, foxes can both climb and descend trees — unlike any other canidae member. Their mode of hunting echoes felines and both animals have several anatomical similarities.

 

If one explored both fox and cats in folklore, it is evident agriculture folks thought the two were related.

 

For ethical reasons, I left Facebook several years ago. I’ve asked that people do not link to or post content from my site on that platform.

 

Unfortunately, that hasn’t been respected. 

 

4 hours ago, VanEssa said:

He likes to act like a benevolent and knowledgeable tutor spreading his deep understanding of the cards to us. But he doesnt like to be questioned or confronted, then he uses belittling, as in one of the master suppression techniques.

Rather than pronounce me gravely mistaken I would have been happy to discuss my perspective.
 

From his post, he hasn’t even read my book or work.  
 

I do not expect him to agree with me, but I find it rude to belittle my understanding and work with the cards.
 

In addition, I’m not German lol. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Guest

[gregory]

14 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

True. Perhaps I am naïve in still believing that people can discuss and disagree in a polite manner that encourages debate.

 

In terms of Lenormand - it has always seemed to me - not. People seem determined to preach their way as the only way - for some reason, more unreasonably than with Tarot..

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, gregory said:

In terms of Lenormand - it has always seemed to me - not. People seem determined to preach their way as the only way - for some reason, more unreasonably than with Tarot..

Yes. Sadly, it is entrenched. Much of it stems from the erroneous belief in schools with their “fixed” associations and never-shall-the-two-meet. 

We cannot challenge them because we were educated in the dark ages.