So are cats represented by the FOX card or DOG?

[katrinka]

10 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

What I have noticed is that there is a disconnect when it comes to the Cavalier as a person. 

The Hound can be a cat or a person, but the Cavalier cannot be a person.  The concept of a chevalier servant also seems to be completely unknown. 

 

 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes. Loyalty can be false, it can end, etc

Yes. Over time, people change and relationships shift.  The Coffin + the Hound (decline of an association) often appears when their is a shift in the dynamics. 
 

44 minutes ago, katrinka said:

See how he starts off by naming "a rival" as an inherent Dog attribute? Then he backtracks and says there needs to be other cards supporting that. True enough, but saying the Dog itself is a rival is like saying the Bouquet is unpleasant or the Sun is failure. Any card can be spoiled by Clouds, Fox, etc.

I did. Over time, I have noticed that a lot of people see “third party” and assume rival or unwelcome figure.  
 

Does Mr. Breuer reads the Fox?  If so, he might see work as it’s core signification.  A lot that do and, therefore, struggle to see it as anything else.  So they transfer some of its significations.  I also wonder if he is transferring some of the Fox’s associations to the Hound. 
 

The traditional eikōn of the Fox shows it with domestic fowl or poultry (chickens, geese, game birds and partridges). Consequently, the implication is that these are not wild birds but someone’s livestock. So, to feed itself and family, it has killed a farmer’s resources — so competing interests, rivalry, opposition.  Even Moony and Elvira see the Fox as a rival. 
 

 

[Guest]

Perhaps we need a threads to specifically discuss the cards’ folklore and wider significations, e.g. why we associate the Birch Rod with stationery, the Fox with cats, and how differences grew. 

[fire cat pickles]

8 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Perhaps we need a threads to specifically discuss the cards’ folklore and wider significations, e.g. why we associate the Birch Rod with stationery, the Fox with cats, and how differences grew. 

This looks like a good OP to me 🙂

[Guest]

On 6/26/2021 at 8:07 AM, VanEssa said:

THE WHIP –
Next card and probably my last entry for a little while is the Whip. The Whip is one of my favorite cards because of its versatility in meaning. Sometimes it can be negative, sometimes it is just talking about repetition, and other times it is the sex card (for me) if I'm not using Rana George's Bed card from her deck.
Let's talk about the image the Whip evokes. Traditionally, the broom and whip were used as a form of punishment in the old days called "flogging." Multiple flogs to someone's tender skin left bright red marks and sometimes drew blood if repeatedly flogged in the same spot. The Whip was used simply to punish, to reprimand, to torture so that whatever the crime/misdemeanor was it would not be repeated. Therefore, it is a negative card and there is usually a feeling of punishment that comes with it. However, because of its connotation of repetition and physical activity, such as exercise, it is sometimes a more neutral card; the context of your question and the surrounding cards will tell you whether or not it is something more sinister.
The Whip as a negative card talks about • arguments
• fighting
• conflict
• disputes
• aggression
• abuse (physical with Scythe or Cross; verbal with Birds) • name-calling
• bullying
• blaming and finger pointing
• screaming at someone
 
 • passionate in a negative sense
• "heated"
• addiction (especially with Ring, Anchor, or Tree: cards that talk about the FIXED quality of doing that thing over and over and not being able to break that loop)
• something negative, like pain, that keeps coming back
etc.
Under a more neutral context, the Whip's meaning of repetition becomes emphasized, becoming virtually all repetitive activities, some of which are
• verbs that begin with the prefix "re-"
• sex and masturbation (for me)
• physical activity
• exercise and working out
• massaging
• cleaning
• writing and editing (especially with Letter or Book) • going over with a fine-tooth comb
• arguing as in court or on a debate team
• going back and forth on something
• reconsidering something
• doing something again, more than once
etc.
Some use the Lilies as the sex card, I and many others use the Whip as the sex card. Here is why. What I learned about the Lilies when I began with the Lenormand system is that the Lilies card talks about virginity and purity, two things that sex is NOT. But the Whip on the other hand talks about all physical activity and repetitive motions, two things that sex IS. So logically the Whip for me made more sense as the sex card. Of course it is whatever you feel most drawn to at the end of the day, that is most important in your own practice.

For anyone interested. Here are a couple of French sites on card no. 11.  
 

These are all Mary Marco’s model: 
 

https://www.marionpredictions.com/signification-des-cartes-petit-leno

http://users.skynet.be/moony/pagecarte2.htm

 

https://www.voyantecorse.com/pages/l-oracle-m-a-predit/le-petit-lenormand.html
 

http://mizcoffy.eklablog.com/interpretation-du-lenormand-a203676760

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

This looks like a good OP to me 🙂

I never like opening threads. I do not know if it should go here or in card studies. 

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

I never like opening threads. I do not know if it should go here or in card studies. 

 

I'm not 100% sure either, but I opened it here. If I'm mistaken, mods please move.
 

 

 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

I did. Over time, I have noticed that a lot of people see “third party” and assume rival or unwelcome figure.  

 

I suspect that a lot of people are browsing Feng Shui sites, lol.
These sites offer a lot of objects that are alleged to get "third parties" to back off your partner. I get the impression that "third party" might be a common euphemism for "paramour" in China and other Asian countries. But that's all conjecture on my part.

A third party is just that: a third person. In most cases they're just living their lives and not even considering an affair with the sitter's partner.
 

4 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Does Mr. Breuer reads the Fox?  If so, he might see work as it’s core signification.  A lot that do and, therefore, struggle to see it as anything else.  So they transfer some of its significations.  I also wonder if he is transferring some of the Fox’s associations to the Hound. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me.
Most people who use the Fox as "work" transfer some extra negativity to the Snake. It's odd that he chose the Dog.
 

4 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

These are all Mary Marco’s model: 
 

https://www.marionpredictions.com/signification-des-cartes-petit-leno

http://users.skynet.be/moony/pagecarte2.htm

 

https://www.voyantecorse.com/pages/l-oracle-m-a-predit/le-petit-lenormand.html
 

http://mizcoffy.eklablog.com/interpretation-du-lenormand-a203676760

Thanks for these!

[bastetly]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:16 AM, katrinka said:

dleted--double post sorry

Edited July 9, 2021 by bastetly

[bastetly]

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

UM. The Rider is the main male rival card. The Dog is usually platonic, and it's trustworthy. 

 

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

What I have noticed is that there is a disconnect when it comes to the Cavalier as a person. 

The Hound can be a cat or a person, but the Cavalier cannot be a person.  The concept of a chevalier servant also seems to be completely unknown. 

What's happening here?  I've always understood that the Rider can be a visitor or the male lover among the other things.  Are you two saying 2 different things here, or the same thing and I'm not seeing it?  katrinka's answer is how I understand it, but @timtoldrum, what do you mean the Rider cannot be a person??  🤔  

[katrinka]

I think he meant that it can't be a person to them, since he mentions the disconnect first.
Andy would probably be the last one to say that the Rider can't be a person, period. His body of work testifies to that. 😉

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

A third party is just that: a third person. In most cases they're just living their lives and not even considering an affair with the sitter's partner.

 

Exactly. The Hound as a third party doesn’t equal rival. If in a love question it can be an ex with whom one maintains a friendly connection. But it's far from a red flag Casanova. 

 

14 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Most people who use the Fox as "work" transfer some extra negativity to the Snake. It's odd that he chose the Dog.

 

In love, the Fox can represent a rival. Someone on the scene and active.

 

The Serpent more danger of acting on something and temptation. 

 

What I've noticed is a lot of Anglo-American cartomantes struggle to see the Fox as anything other than work. Even in love questions. So that has to go somewhere. 

 

21 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Thanks for these!

 

It is just that “repetitive motion” metaphor. I have never seen it in French. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, bastetly said:

What's happening here?  I've always understood that the Rider can be a visitor or the male lover among the other things.  Are you two saying 2 different things here, or the same thing and I'm not seeing it?  katrinka's answer is how I understand it, but @timtoldrum, what do you mean the Rider cannot be a person??  🤔  

 

Lol. No I read it as a man. 

 

But there seems to be a disconnect between the Cavalier as a man and newer readers.  Whereas readers can accept the Hound as a person or cat it is odd they believe reading the Cavalier as a man means “losing a card” (the classic objection given).

Edited June 28, 2021 by Guest

[bastetly]

1 minute ago, timtoldrum said:

 

Lol. No I read it as a man. 

 

But there seems to be a disconnect between the Cavalier as a man and newer readers.

OH!  Oh thank you, now I get it.  Seeing as I've been studying (almost) entirely fm your writings,  I was REALLy thrown by that!  whew! 

Really excited to see the new folklore thread up!

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, bastetly said:

OH!  Oh thank you, now I get it.  Seeing as I've been studying (almost) entirely fm your writings,  I was REALLy thrown by that!  whew! 

Really excited to see the new folklore thread up!

 

You're welcome, @bastetly. When I went back I would have read it as you did. It's nice to “see” you again 🙂 

[Sadewa]

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

I get the impression that "third party" might be a common euphemism for "paramour" in China and other Asian countries. But that's all conjecture on my part.

My reply may be a bit off topic here but...... You are actually not wrong.

"Third party" is actually related to betrayal and extramarital affairs in China at least. In Chinese there are actually slangs like "little three" and its slightly more polite version "the third person" that point to "paramours" like you said. When studying in Indonesia I've also heard of similar expressions in local music: there was a song named "orang ketiga (the third person)" that was basically about a love triangle.

I can't really say about the other Asian countries, though. 

 

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

I suspect that a lot of people are browsing Feng Shui sites, lol.
These sites offer a lot of objects that are alleged to get "third parties" to back off your partner.

As a student majoring in foreign languages, though, I personally assume that the "third party" mentioned on those FengShui sites might be a result of poor translation, for the term "third party" doesn't really automatically scream unfaithfulness in relationships despite that such euphemisms do exist. I suppose that the original text was to use FengShui to a)keep your partner faithful or b)keep him cut off from external temptations which, in this specific cultural context, do often mean other women. (Sadly older generations do tend to blame women more rather than accusing men of their unfaithfulness.)

"Third party" itself can be completely neutral in Chinese. For example, when signing a contract, "third party" can just mean any person other than you and the one you are signing the contract with-------it doesn't automatically mean commitment issues. 
 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Sadewa

[katrinka]

3 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

My reply may be a bit off topic here but...... You are actually not wrong.

"Third party" is actually related to betrayal and extramarital affairs in China at least. In Chinese there are actually slangs like "little three" and its slightly more polite version "the third person" that points to "paramours" like you said. When studying in Indonesia I've also heard of similar expressions in local music: there was a song named "orang ketiga (the third person)" that was basically about a love triangle.

 

Thanks for this! It's good to have some confirmation.
 

3 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

I can't really say about the other Asian countries, though. 

 

True. Surely they differ on this.

 

3 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

As a student majoring in foreign languages, though, I personally assume that the "third party" mentioned on those FengShui sites might be a result of poor translation, for the term "third party" doesn't really automatically scream unfaithfulness in relationships despite that such euphemisms do exist.

 

I'm no language expert, but it seems to me that it's very difficult to translate Chinese to English, and vice versa. You need a lot more than just doing it word for word with google translate, for sure.
 

3 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

I suppose that the original text was to use FengShui to a)keep your partner faithful or b)keep him cut off from external temptations which, in this specific cultural context, do often mean other women. (Sadly older generations do tend to blame women more rather than accusing men of their unfaithfulness.)

 

Yes. Here is an example. (This shop is located in Malaysia.)
It's interesting because it's based on the premise that some men are destined to have more than one wife, so the idea is to create a "dummy marriage" with this little fox charm.

http://www.fengshuibestbuy.com/SL10671-fox.html

 

3 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

"Third party" itself can be completely neutral in Chinese. For example, when signing a contract, "third party" can just mean any person other than you and the one you are signing the contract with-------it doesn't automatically mean commitment issues.

 

That's a sensible way of thinking of it.

 

[bastetly]

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

You're welcome, @bastetly. When I went back I would have read it as you did. It's nice to “see” you again 🙂 

[bastetly]

Just going to leave this here...

[Guest]

Very striking.