Lenormand cards: folklore and significations

[Guest]

We have covered this elsewhere, but the High Tower’s association with longevity is quite simple.

 

If one studies the older Petit Lenormand patterns you will see that the structure on card no. 19 is distinctly older that the house on card no. 4 or the landscapes of card. 20.  
 

The structure is an old European tower-house, which were erected at borders or places where there was a need to monitor defences in less populated areas. So, from the tower, one can look into the distance.

 

The association with both seeing into the distance and its age connect it with time and longevity. It is a relic of time long gone.
 

With the Park card the High Tower can indicate a historic landmark or museum. Next to the House it can indicate an old period property.
 

Often its adjacent buildings have crumbled which is why it became associated with widowhood and later divorce. 

 

However, High Tower can offer both protection and security. 
 

Quite a lot of readers associate the High Tower with governments, et cetera. I do not see this. It is not congruent to the card’s images and government offices are better seen in the Park. 

[HOLMES]

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

. Your intuition should still be congruent with the emblem.

 

 

I am not sure what you mean. 

Is it like in the tarot no matter may beautify it up.. death still means death ?

[HOLMES]

47 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

 It is not congruent to the card’s images and government offices are better seen in the Park. 

 

I did a live reading recently where the government aspect of the tower served me. 

But i don't know about government offices in the park. 

Is there a particular lenormand where that is prominent in the image? 

Wait i got confused as i thought you were calling the garden the park?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

Quite a lot of readers associate the High Tower with governments, et cetera.

To the best of my knowledge, this does stem from the influence of the Blue Owl - the tower depicted there is of a different kind than the one in the Brepols or Wuest Patterns.

The left is the blue owl, the right is the "Bauerlinsturm" of Dinkelsbuhl, Germany.

The aspect of sight -> oversight, analogous to government, does appear closer with this one.

[HOLMES]

Ohh so it is a famous landmark .. is it lawbased? 

I tried to wiki it .. but it was a differnt language. 

Is it as famous as the tower of london?

 

[katrinka]

38 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

 

I am not sure what you mean. 

Is it like in the tarot no matter may beautify it up.. death still means death ?

 

I'm not trying to speak for Andy, but "Your intuition should still be congruent with the emblem" just means that your intuition and the cards should be in accord or agreement. They shouldn't clash or contradict each other,

 

33 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

I did a live reading recently where the government aspect of the tower served me. 

But i don't know about government offices in the park. 

Is there a particular lenormand where that is prominent in the image? 

Wait i got confused as i thought you were calling the garden the park?

 

You won't see it in the image. It's due to the fact that the Park is the card of the public, and government offices deal with the public. The people who work there are public officials.
It's logic. Think "Dept. of Public Works", "Department of Public Safety", etc.
 

8 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Ohh so it is a famous landmark .. is it lawbased? 

I tried to wiki it .. but it was a differnt language. 

Is it as famous as the tower of london?

 

There are a LOT of tower houses - it's a type of building, not a single famous place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_house

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, treppatey said:

To the best of my knowledge, this does stem from the influence of the Blue Owl - the tower depicted there is of a different kind than the one in the Brepols or Wuest Patterns.

The left is the blue owl, the right is the "Bauerlinsturm" of Dinkelsbuhl, Germany.

The aspect of sight -> oversight, analogous to government, does appear closer with this one.

It cannot be attributed attributed to one pattern imho. Plus, the blaue/rote eule were not as widely disseminated as other patterns (such as the Dondorf, Brepols, Piatnik).  

The image on the blaue eule is a tower house at the city wall.  These were built for protective purpose like other tower-houses. But is that explicitly government? It is one function.
 

That said I can see the oversight = government connection, but (outside of a dictatorship) government is a body. I do not state it is wrong, but it’s a concept that I find better expressed elsewhere in combinations, e.g. Park — Birch Rod as courts, prisons, Park — Bear as political,  bureaucracy, officials, and so on.

 

1 hour ago, HOLMES said:

 

I did a live reading recently where the government aspect of the tower served me. 

But i don't know about government offices in the park. 

Is there a particular lenormand where that is prominent in the image? 

Wait i got confused as i thought you were calling the garden the park?

 

I called it a Park as it shows a park or public space. It is not a private garden.

 

39 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I'm not trying to speak for Andy, but "Your intuition should still be congruent with the emblem" just means that your intuition and the cards should be in accord or agreement. They shouldn't clash or contradict each other,

Yep. 🙂 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Guest

[HOLMES]

Yes but was wondering specifically about the blue owl tower and bauerlinsturm" of Dinkelsbuhl, Germany.

 

Edited to say

Thanks katrinka i didn't think about the cards working together for your answer couple of posts up.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by HOLMES

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Ohh so it is a famous landmark .. is it lawbased? 

I tried to wiki it .. but it was a differnt language. 

Is it as famous as the tower of london?

It is a part of the weir - system of the old part of Dinkelsbuhl, and the towns landmark.

It was build as a watchtower and got its name from its most prominent guardian at that time. It is not lawbased, as in juristic, the association is analogous

(and, as Andy stated above, not without problems. Still, if it works... - it does not need to be generalised, you are still free to discard it as soon as it drops out of service).

It is not nearly as popular as the tower of london, still it has popularity on an international level.

[gregory]

They are just the towers the creators of  the deck chose to use for illustration. A tower is a tower is a tower. Bauerlinsturm pretty much mean's farmers' tower, I believe.

[Guest]

The main characteristic is that there is no debris to be found in the Blue Owl tower card, also, the tower does not stand as isolated as it is depicted in the Dondorf, Brepols or Wuest. Therefor, the analogous processing of the image is more likely to yield a different result.

The resemblance to the Bauerlinsturm is an aside, still, a funny one. A similar structure may well have served as an inspiration for the artist.

If someone is curious as to where the name came from, put this into a translator:

https://www.tourismus-dinkelsbuehl.de/ihr-urlaubsort/stadtrundgang/stationen-rundgang/baeuerlinsturm/

[katrinka]

Yes. When you look at Bauerlinstrum or any of these old towers, you'll often see a lot of stuff built around them, but that wasn't always the case.
This is Hornby Castle in Lancashire (4000 holes, lol) - I researched it at one time because I actually had distant ancestors living there. 20th great grandparents or somesuch:

 

But when "we" were living there, only the tower existed. It wasn't really a castle yet. Just a remote tower in northern England where they watched for approaching enemies and so forth.

It's the same with virtually any of these old towers. Some of them are smack in the middle of cities now, but at one time they stood alone. That's why the Tower card stands for borders, boundaries and isolation, not government.

[HOLMES]

Ok.. so if some innocent went and made the tower. The tower of london not knowing the lenormand that deeply would be massacred by the traditionlist/scholar.. 

Surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Or maybe the empire state building.

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Ok.. so if some innocent went and made the tower. The tower of london not knowing the lenormand that deeply would be massacred by the traditionlist/scholar.. 

Surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Or maybe the empire state building.

 

That's all been done.  A lot of the newer decks feature office buildings, bell towers, any kind of tall building - because whoever designed the deck didn't bother to learn the cards first.

That's why it's generally recommended that beginners stick with the old patterns. I'm not saying none of the old decks have issues, or none of the newer ones are usable. There are some exceptions, but it's still a good rule of thumb to stick with decks first published before 1950 or so.

[katrinka]

From the Spiel der Hoffnung:

 

The Dondorf:

 

Stralsunder:
 

Etc. There's a consistency to all these old images that you don't get with the modern decks.

Edited July 27, 2021 by katrinka

[HOLMES]

I like that last image, looks like built on a rock  though the spielimage being so thin does isolate.. 

All the sudden i thought of the guy from wizard of id with spear in his tower.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, treppatey said:

The main characteristic is that there is no debris to be found in the Blue Owl tower card, also, the tower does not stand as isolated as it is depicted in the Dondorf, Brepols or Wuest. Therefor, the analogous processing of the image is more likely to yield a different result.

There are several patterns without debris and tend towards a more “residential” or less remote structure. 
 

More so than any other cards, the High Tower has seen a significant change in interpretation. Quite often these cast it in a rather negative light. 
 

But as Colette Silvestre noted: the High Tower can indicate protection, security and elevation.

 

I do not consider the government or official associations wrong. But I am cautious in seeing these become its primary topic. The High Tower is a card that generates a lot of questions because people struggle to see it outside of government or official connections. 

 

13 hours ago, HOLMES said:

Ok.. so if some innocent went and made the tower. The tower of london not knowing the lenormand that deeply would be massacred by the traditionlist/scholar.. 

Surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Or maybe the empire state building.

 

There has been. I’ve seen sky scrapers, the Eiffel Tower, castles, et cetera. 

 

The “Tower of London” was built as a fortified palace and was used as such up to the early 16th century. It does contain structures that are analogous with tower houses but would not be in keeping with the traditional emblem. 
 

13 hours ago, katrinka said:

It's the same with virtually any of these old towers. Some of them are smack in the middle of cities now, but at one time they stood alone. That's why the Tower card stands for borders, boundaries and isolation, not government.

 

Yes. And In the folklore of the cards, the Mountain and High Tower either side of a person indicates a stalemate. Your enemies (Mountain) advance like a siege (High Tower).

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Guest

[HOLMES]

Any folklore on the bear? 

 

I remember some kid stories had transformation into bear that were not native americian based so perhaps they were european based ?

[Guest]

Bears are quite common in the folklore of Northern and Eastern Europe. It is worth remembering that the bear population was once more widely distributed.

The sow was observed to be excellent but extremely protective of her cubs. She was seen as such in numerous myths.  In readings on family members, the Bear is often seen as female.
 

There were also common tales of bears turning into people, often men.  Jean de l’Ours and Snow White and Red Rose, as told by the Grimm brothers, are good examples. In love readings, the Bear can and is often read as a man. 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

I do not consider the government or official associations wrong. But I am cautious in seeing these become its primary topic.

Understandable, very much so. They are aspects, extracted from the card by analogous processing.

After all, the tower is a stable structure, yet it is quiet a versatile card.

Still, (as an example) feeling "towery" - what is that supposed to mean!?

 

Of note may be the connection to studies, wich is not that far off, for there also are library-towers.

 

1 hour ago, HOLMES said:

Any folklore on the bear?

By the habit of them living in caves comes a certain connection to the womb, as well as to a kind of archaic wisdom, often matriarchal.

After all, the oldest sculpture of a mother-goddess (about 70.000 years old) is said to be carved from the lower jaw of a bear.

The authorian aspect is covered in mxlavenders post up there, it is the transformation into a bear, and yes, it has to do with a strengthening. Good or bad, that depends on the story.

In rune-lore, there is stuff to be found about that, personally, I find it does not translate to the cards that well.

[Vesta]

On 6/30/2021 at 3:56 PM, mxlavender said:

 All the things we say about foxes (cunning, strategic, survivor) are applicable to cats.  My two Siamese are extremely cunning. I’m sure one can open doors, but I’ve not caught her yet

@mxlavenderMy Siamese mix, Cosette, will stand on her hind legs in front of a closed door and use her front paws to jiggle the doorknob until it opens.  I think cats can do pretty much anything they choose to do.

 

I've been wondering about the directional meaning of the Ship.  I generally read the card next to the stern of the Ship as what is being left behind and the card next to the prow as what you are moving on to.  Is this type of interpretation traditional?  

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

Understandable, very much so. They are aspects, extracted from the card by analogous processing.

After all, the tower is a stable structure, yet it is quiet a versatile card.

Still, (as an example) feeling "towery" - what is that supposed to mean!?

 

Of note may be the connection to studies, wich is not that far off, for there also are library-towers.

If I am reading the High Tower as a feeling, and there are no ominous attendees, I lean towards solid and self- assured. There can be a philosophical bent.

 

It is worth remembering that its original signification included happiness. It can still indicate happiness but it is highly personal.

 

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

By the habit of them living in caves comes a certain connection to the womb, as well as to a kind of archaic wisdom, often matriarchal.

After all, the oldest sculpture of a mother-goddess (about 70.000 years old) is said to be carved from the lower jaw of a bear.

The authorian aspect is covered in mxlavenders post up there, it is the transformation into a bear, and yes, it has to do with a strengthening. Good or bad, that depends on the story.

In rune-lore, there is stuff to be found about that, personally, I find it does not translate to the cards that well.

Yes. It is often overlooked that the areas we focus on were part of Continental Celts diaspora. 

 

1 hour ago, Vesta said:

@mxlavenderMy Siamese mix, Cosette, will stand on her hind legs in front of a closed door and use her front paws to jiggle the doorknob until it opens.  I think cats can do pretty much anything they choose to do.

My two are Siamese (Sealpoint and Lilac). I haven’t caught them yet — but i am sure. They can open drawers. 
 

1 hour ago, Vesta said:

I've been wondering about the directional meaning of the Ship.  I generally read the card next to the stern of the Ship as what is being left behind and the card next to the prow as what you are moving on to.  Is this type of interpretation traditional?  

Yes. Some people do note where it sails from, et cetera. I think Malkiel Dietrich did and so does Alexandra Weng.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Guest

[Vesta]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:08 PM, mxlavender said:

Yes. Some people do note where it sails from, et cetera. I think Malkiel Dietrich did and so does Alexandra Weng.

Thank you.  That's helpful.  Directional interpretations are fascinating to me.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Vesta said:

Thank you.  That's helpful.  Directional interpretations are fascinating to me.

You are welcome. Personally, it’s not a card I note (directionally) beyond its distance from the Significator. The further away the Boat falls the longer matters take to settle.  

[Guest]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:37 PM, Vesta said:

I generally read the card next to the stern of the Ship as what is being left behind and the card next to the prow as what you are moving on to.

I do not read it like that genreally, but: At times, it simply appears to work like that!

It is indeed nice to know that it is part of established procedures.

 

17 hours ago, mxlavender said:

The further away the Boat falls the longer matters take to settle.

This (is news and) has useful appeal, I will look if it integrates for me.

 

In skipping through the LWB of the Brepols, I stumbled over the mountain - well, the description thereof - concretely, the part of the mountain, if far away, could denote an ally.

For me, it did not yet transpire as such - strangely enough, it did show in the description of a person living in a different country, outside of Europe. "Over the mountain", so to speak. Back to the ally-thing, is here anyone utilising that signification?