Brazilian folk meanings

[Mr Green]

Hi, I am looking for a list, or book that has the different card meanings that are used in Brazil. I only read English so no spanish, or portugese web sites are any good. I am thinking that maybe there may be a link here, but have not seen anything. Have looked over on AT. but not much, a lot of the links are now dead. So can any one with some knowledge help... Thanks...  

[katrinka]

Some people in Brazil use the same meanings as the rest of the world. But some Brazilian decks have a few cards changed and people correspond them to Orishas and Exu spirits. If you're not initiated into that, it's disrespectful to use them. I know of no reputable list in english.

[Mr Green]

Thanks for the reply, I found one site astro centro, its in portugese google can translate. Tell me do you know were to look for lenormand cards with the differences, I tried amazon, and ebay but had no luck...

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Mr Green said:

Tell me do you know were to look for lenormand cards with the differences, I tried amazon, and ebay but had no luck...

Outside of Brazil, no. Occasionally, you will see one or two Baralho Cigano on eBay. You will need to be able to view some of the cards to be certain which of the Brazilian patterns it is. The Cloverleaf is usually the marker.

As @katrinka stated above, Candomblé and Umbanda are religions not schools of thought comparable to whether you associate the Fox or the Moon with work. The initiated cartomantes do not just read cards with different associations, but draw from their faith and working with their spirits and the Orishas and Exu. You have to forge a link which is done through initiation and a house.
 

If you are not a practitioner you will not have the required knowledge to fully understand the meanings and ascertain forces at work. 
 

I am not lecturing you but you must understand that this is not just about decks and meeting. 

[Mr Green]

Thanks for the reply, and information. So no joy on finding some deeper meanings then?. I will have to ask spirit, and maybe find some  insight. Its strange how the little I know of the differences they really resonate with me. Thanks again for the reply...  

[katrinka]

That's the damage done by the new age.
Religions and cultures are not a buffet where you can fix a little plate with a Pomba Gira, Kuan Yin, Hecate, Freya, and the Virgin. And you don't lift from African Diaspora religions simply to add to your card reading acumen.
If you're truly called to this, find a house and see if you can be initiated into it. It's a huge commitment.
Otherwise, leave it strictly alone.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mr Green said:

Thanks for the reply, and information. So no joy on finding some deeper meanings then?. I will have to ask spirit, and maybe find some  insight. Its strange how the little I know of the differences they really resonate with me. Thanks again for the reply...  

 

37 minutes ago, katrinka said:

That's the damage done by the new age.
Religions and cultures are not a buffet where you can fix a little plate with a Pomba Gira, Kuan Yin, Hecate, Freya, and the Virgin. And you don't lift from African Diaspora religions simply to add to your card reading acumen.
If you're truly called to this, find a house and see if you can be initiated into it. It's a huge commitment.
Otherwise, leave it strictly alone.

Mr. Green I feel Katrinka is correct.  If you are called to the path, you will find both a house and therein a teacher.  If you are called, that house will take you in, and in time, might initiate you.  But it is a commitment; something you must be 100%. 

 

It also cannot be about the Petit Lenormand. Depending upon where you reside, the house may not include a cartomate or one that uses the Baralho Cigano. If so, would you still join? 

Please understand I do not seek to patronise you. If you are sure, I would suggest you start with your Ancestors and Spirit.  Ask them.  I would also look into leaning Portuguese. 

 

[HOLMES]

As katrinka pointed out in the earlier post some brazilian decks use those systems so must be one or 2 that doesn't

Perhaps you can find one without that basis. 

Like why you attracted to brazilian decks ? I figure must be one particular deck attracting you?

 

[Sadewa]

You seem pretty stuck with the idea on finding a particular list of meanings, while katrinka and mxlavender here are trying to tell you that it's more about finding a deck and a list of meanings to use.

 

Please don't ignore what they are telling you.

 

If you don't live in Brazil, and are merely interested in finding meanings used in Brazil because of its exoticism, then it's really inappropriate. These traditions are using the cards to work with spirits which have history with their ancestors and their land. This goes far deeper than some of today's "pick a patron deity as you wish" trend, and messing with it sure has consequences.

 

Besides, doing so offends people. I know I feel weird when I saw a lady publishing a book on drawing traditional talismans for money, which should be part of a larger practice originated from where I live. By promising anyone can do it, she literally degraded it in a way.

 

If you live in Brazil yourself, then there's more reason to respect your own culture and do it the right way.

 

I know of someone who tried to dabble in voodoo, but failed to present the offerings in the correct manner. There was literally FIRE in his house.

 

So please, please take careful consideration before you decide you just want to grab some foreign card meanings anyway. 

 

If you just want to read cards, there are resources readily available, without intruding a tradition that doesn't necessarily belong to you.

 

[HOLMES]

1 hour ago, Sadewa said:

You seem pretty stuck with the idea on finding a particular list of meanings, while katrinka and mxlavender here are trying to tell you that it's more about finding a deck and a list of meanings to use.

 

Please don't ignore what they are telling you.

 

If you don't live in Brazil, and are merely interested in finding meanings used in Brazil because of its exoticism, then it's really inappropriate. These traditions are using the cards to work with spirits which have history with their ancestors and their land. This goes far deeper than some of today's "pick a patron deity as you wish" trend, and messing with it sure has consequences.

 

Besides, doing so offends people. I know I feel weird when I saw a lady publishing a book on drawing traditional talismans for money, which should be part of a larger practice originated from where I live. By promising anyone can do it, she literally degraded it in a way.

 

If you live in Brazil yourself, then there's more reason to respect your own culture and do it the right way.

 

I know of someone who tried to dabble in voodoo, but failed to present the offerings in the correct manner. There was literally FIRE in his house.

 

So please, please take careful consideration before you decide you just want to grab some foreign card meanings anyway. 

 

If you just want to read cards, there are resources readily available, without intruding a tradition that doesn't necessarily belong to you.

 

 

How can you tell the differnce between a beautiful lenormand, and a deck designed to work in such a manner. From brazil ? 

I had my eyes on one due to its beauty for example a couple of months ago. 

 

[Sadewa]

2 hours ago, HOLMES said:

How can you tell the differnce between a beautiful lenormand, and a deck designed to work in such a manner. From brazil ? 

I had my eyes on one due to its beauty for example a couple of months ago. 

I'm not an expert on different Lenormand variations, as I am still learning. katrinka an mxlavender can probably provide more insightful explanations than me.

From my limited knowledge and understanding, certain practitioners in Brazil do have a special lenormand variant, which replaces the 2nd card Clover into a Drifting Wood symbol. This obviously changes its meaning and the whole balance of the deck's system. It is my understanding that while the original Clover symbol is generally a positive one, the Drifting Wood emphasizes possible obstacles.

 

Here is an amazon link where a deck designed by "a Brazillian practitioner (quoting a customer review)" is saled. Amazon.com : Ygor´s Cards - Petit Lenormand : Everything Else However, I must confess that I can't be sure such variation in design is invariably connected to Candomblé and Umbanda. 

 

I would suggest you check the symbols on that deck first and then its theme. If it has 36 standard symbols as the Game of Hope, then it probably can be read the same as any other lenormand sold out of Brazil. However, deck theme also matters. While there is personal preference at play, I do think some themed decks don't really pay due respect to the presented theme, or dilutes the essence of the 36 symbols. 

 

Also, you may want to check the description provided by the seller, as there could be hints.

[Decan]

Odete Lopes Mazza wrote a book on Lenormand in Portuguese, I think it is well known but since I don’t read Portuguese I can’t say a word about this book.

But she may have explained a bit what it is about? I’m sure she knows that quite well, even if she didn’t necessarily explain it in her book (I don’t know to be honest).

[Mr Green]

Thank you all for the very helpful information. I was drawn to the differences in the deck as they made more sense (to me), I have no desire to join a Brazilian  religious house, and I cannot se how that could offend, when I only wish to use some slightly different meanings (with no reference to any spirits), with the lenormand cards ?. Anyway thanks again ...   

[katrinka]

4 minutes ago, Mr Green said:

Thank you all for the very helpful information. I was drawn to the differences in the deck as they made more sense (to me), I have no desire to join a Brazilian  religious house, and I cannot se how that could offend, when I only wish to use some slightly different meanings (with no reference to any spirits), with the lenormand cards ?. Anyway thanks again ...   

The card that replaces Clover shows fallen trees on a road - Obstacle - and Lenormand already has an obstacle card (Mountains), as well as Snake sometimes being detours. It would make no sense to throw away the Clover and bring in yet another obstacle card. The only way to make sense of that card would be to have a deep understanding of the spirits.

[katrinka]

I know both Odete and Karla. Neither practice Umbanda, Quimbanda, etc. to my knowledge. Everything I've seen from them has been "regular" Lenormand.

[Decan]

9 minutes ago, Mr Green said:

Thank you all for the very helpful information. I was drawn to the differences in the deck as they made more sense (to me), I have no desire to join a Brazilian  religious house, and I cannot se how that could offend, when I only wish to use some slightly different meanings (with no reference to any spirits), with the lenormand cards ?. Anyway thanks again ...   

I don't live in Brazil, but in Europe, so I understand your point of view, I think.

Nevertheless, there is a point of view which seems "natural" for us, and a point of view which can be "natural" for someone living in another country/culture. Actually it can be 2 different things.

I wouldn't be suprised if there were no separation at all between this particular view about these cards and particular religious matters, so not something about preferences like we tend to have. But it's just what I guess, not what I know. Brazilian culture is likely far away from mine.

[Decan]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I know both Odete and Karla. Neither practice Umbanda, Quimbanda, etc. to my knowledge. Everything I've seen from them has been "regular" Lenormand.

Okay good to know.

I thought about that because I read that in her family they used to practice magic.

[Sadewa]

1 hour ago, Mr Green said:

I only wish to use some slightly different meanings (with no reference to any spirits)

As is explained by others, the spirits are not mere references in the same way people associate Tarot trumps with different planets. They are built into that particular lenormand variant, and are an integral part of that variant system.  Reading those "slightly different meanings" and deliberately ignoring their spiritual aspect would be cherry picking to say the least. And, cherry picking generally leads to issues in interpretations.

 

1 hour ago, Mr Green said:

I cannot se how that could offend

Because of their spiritual and religious features, using those "slightly different meanings" and choosing to ignore their spiritual aspect (which is important in their spirituality and religion) could, from a possible insider's view, be like dabbling in their cherished culture but merely cherry picking what you like or want to work with. 

 

Of course, it is your complete freedom to choose however you use the cards. And by saying "offending", I am not the one that is offended. It is those who come from that cultural background who decide whether they are offended or not when they see their own tradition was practiced that way, without proper attention to the spirits they honor.

[gregory]

1 hour ago, Sadewa said:

As is explained by others, the spirits are not mere references in the same way people associate Tarot trumps with different planets. They are built into that particular lenormand variant, and are an integral part of that variant system.  Reading those "slightly different meanings" and deliberately ignoring their spiritual aspect would be cherry picking to say the least. And, cherry picking generally leads to issues in interpretations.

 

Because of their spiritual and religious features, using those "slightly different meanings" and choosing to ignore their spiritual aspect (which is important in their spirituality and religion) could, from a possible insider's view, be like dabbling in their cherished culture but merely cherry picking what you like or want to work with. 

 

Of course, it is your complete freedom to choose however you use the cards. And by saying "offending", I am not the one that is offended. It is those who come from that cultural background who decide whether they are offended or not when they see their own tradition was practiced that way, without proper attention to the spirits they honor.

 

I couldn't agree more. It is what is called cultural misappropriation and is - basically - wrong.

Edited August 12, 2021 by gregory
predictive text struck again

[Mr Green]

So, with out offending anyone what are the European , Russian, spiritual meanings to the cards if any ?  I have read Rana George and she makes ref, to spiritual meanings in her book. But dose that mean there are no others or are they a secret... 

[katrinka]

49 minutes ago, Mr Green said:

So, with out offending anyone what are the European , Russian, spiritual meanings to the cards if any ?  I have read Rana George and she makes ref, to spiritual meanings in her book. But dose that mean there are no others or are they a secret... 

There are no secret meanings in regular Continental Lenormand. It's not the Golden Dawn, it's folk cartomancy.
When Rana talks about spiritual meanings, she's referring to things like past lives, spirit contact, magic - just new age stuff you can infer from the cards if you do those kinds of readings.

That's quite different from a deity based system as seen in Quimbanda, etc. African Diaspora spirits - IF it's confirmed that one is yours, and you don't get to pick, the spirit chooses you, and most don't deal in cartomancy - require a great degree of commitment. Time, effort, and expense - required offerings for one can include things like a bottle of good champagne, expensive cigarettes and perfume, and a dozen long-stemmed red roses from which you have removed the thorns yourself. All of that is left at the crossroads.  You don't get to take it back.

There is no list of secret Brazilian meanings. Not everything works that way, not everything is Anglo cartomancy and secret societies. There is an Exu spirit that I'm told whispers the meanings in the reader's ear. But it has to be confirmed by an Umbanda/Quimbanda priest that she's your spirit, and you have to dedicate your time and effort to her, and venerate her with the proper altar and offerings.

 

It's NOT the same thing as pulling the Clover and saying that an herb would be helpful, which is the kind of thing Rana refers to. Anybody who knows the cards can do what Rana's talking about.

If you're looking for some kind of initiate level thing, you won't find it in Lenormand and other folk cartomancy methods. You'd be better served studying the Thoth. Crowley spilled the secrets of the Golden Dawn with that one. It's not secret anymore, but nothing really is. You can find the secrets of the Masons on the internet, everything is out there. And none of it is particularly exciting.

 

 

[Mr Green]

Thank you, Katrinka...I get what your saying...

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Mr Green said:

Thank you all for the very helpful information. I was drawn to the differences in the deck as they made more sense (to me), I have no desire to join a Brazilian  religious house, and I cannot se how that could offend, when I only wish to use some slightly different meanings (with no reference to any spirits), with the lenormand cards ?. Anyway thanks again ...   

Could you share (if possible) the meanings or source which appealed to you?  Over time there has been much confusion regarding the Petit Lenormand significations. If these are Umbanda and Candomblé, then it is impossible to divorce the significations from the practice.  The main focus of such readings is the Querent’s relationship with the Spirits. Consequently, without that knowledge the readings will go awry. 
 

4 hours ago, Mr Green said:

So, with out offending anyone what are the European , Russian, spiritual meanings to the cards if any ?  I have read Rana George and she makes ref, to spiritual meanings in her book. But dose that mean there are no others or are they a secret... 

 

There is no secret. The significations are just contextual progressions: the Cloverleaf for wortcunning or charms, the Fox for shapeshifters, the House for a Coven/Lodge, the Cross for the crossroads. It will depend upon one’s path. 

[Mr Green]

Hi in reply to request    http://www.astrocentro.com.br   if you read Brazilian then you may get more info, I had to use google translate.  And thanks for the other info... 

[katrinka]

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