Circle in the crown of "LA JUSTICE"

[WizardintheWoods]

That is not an octahedron that I am aware of having ever seen. 

[Decan]

Jodorowsky is a little weirdy at times with Tarot, no? I have in mind a few things he also elaborated on the Tower card and this never spoke to me... this probably comes from me 🥴

[gregory]

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

That's OK. I don't want him doing more stuff with frogs and horned toads.

 

 I did NOT need to be reminded of that right now....

[selena]

I had always thought it was jewel or broach which were often worn on bourrelet or chaperon. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, fratermaitri said:

Hi Lezarni,

 

Most crowns have several small gems around it and a big one on the front, while others just the big one on the front. In the tarot decks that you mentioned, this gem is drawn as a figure known in sacred geometry as an octahedron, which symbolizes the element of air, associated with the intellect. The octahedron is sometimes used in rituals to banish unwanted forces. In Witch's Shield by Christopher Penczak, it is used as a psychic shield. So either the artist of these tarot decks wanted the justice card to symbolize intellectual justice or protection related to justice, or the artist just drew the gem in that shape because these are sometimes cut like that.

 

Peace,

Frater Maitri

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

Frater Maitri,

It was my first initial idea that this symbol should be connected to sacred geometry. In has reminded me of one of Hermetic symbols which is different – it is a dot inside of triangle which is inside of square.
The Element of Air is represented by Sword of LA JUSTICE, so I think "circle" represents something else which is not necessarily contradict to what you have said. Thank you.

The concept of "third eye" is not solely related to India and cultures which come from there. In Chinese Taoism, the "third eye" has been known for a long time and was widely used for different trainings. Knowledge about the pineal gland or "third eye" was very known in Ancient Egypt. A good example is the most commonly used image of the Eye of Horus or the Eye of Ra. 

Pythagoras was initiated in Babylon and he brought knowledge to Greece in the sixth century BC. I make this point to say that ancient civilizations were not isolated from each other. I am sure that the creators of such a complex system as the TDM knew about these well-known things.
One of the largest statues of the pineal gland is located in the Vatican.

[katrinka]

29 minutes ago, Lezarni said:

The concept of "third eye" is not solely related to India and cultures which come from there. In Chinese Taoism, the "third eye" has been known for a long time and was widely used for different trainings. 

 

What I actually said was "It's an Eastern concept from religions like Hinduism", not that it's "solely related to India." I'm going to ask you nicely not to misrepresent statements I made.
 

29 minutes ago, Lezarni said:

One of the largest statues of the pineal gland is located in the Vatican.

 

It's a pinecone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_della_Pigna

 

Joe Rogan called it a "pineal gland":
https://www.facebook.com/JOEROGAN/photos/this-is-a-massive-pine-cone-in-rome-at-the-vatican-that-represents-the-pineal-gl/10154113866799902/

Joe Rogan is not to be taken seriously about anything. He even pushes lies about a global pandemic:
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074442185/joe-rogan-doctor-covid-podcast-spotify-misinformation

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/covid-misinformation-joe-rogan-spotify-petition-1282240/

 

If you have a credible source, we'd like to see it. Until then, it's a pinecone.

 

[fire cat pickles]

1 hour ago, Lezarni said:

I am sure that the creators of such a complex system as the TDM knew about these well-known things.

Just so were clear: A secret society of cardmakers, across a span of several geographical areas , within a timeframe span of a few centuries, and at the height of the Inquisition, secretly conspired to encode knowledge such as Pythagorean theorem, octohedrons, and mystical teachings of Far Eastern chakras into a deck of playing cards?

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by fire cat pickles

[katrinka]

[gregory]

49 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Just so were clear: A secret society of cardmakers, across a span of several geographical areas , within a timeframe span of a few centuries, and at the height of the Inquisition, secretly conspired to encode knowledge such as Pythagorean theorem, octohedrons, and mystical teachings of Far Eastern chakras into a deck of playing cards?

 

 

 

Um - no.....

[tag Jorrit]

Silly me. And I thought that tarot began as a card game, sorta like poker and canasta.

[katrinka]

9 minutes ago, tag Jorrit said:

Silly me. And I thought that tarot began as a card game, sorta like poker and canasta.

 

We have evidence to the contrary. Look at all the "octahedrons"!

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

Just so were clear: A secret society of cardmakers, across a span of several geographical areas , within a timeframe span of a few centuries, and at the height of the Inquisition, secretly conspired to encode knowledge such as Pythagorean theorem, octohedrons, and mystical teachings of Far Eastern chakras into a deck of playing cards?

 

 

So we clear: I do not know who created these cards and when it was done exactly. Kris Hadar dates this cards to 1181, Inquisition did not even started then. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

What I actually said was "It's an Eastern concept from religions like Hinduism", not that it's "solely related to India." I'm going to ask you nicely not to misrepresent statements I made.
 

 

It's a pinecone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_della_Pigna

 

Joe Rogan called it a "pineal gland":
https://www.facebook.com/JOEROGAN/photos/this-is-a-massive-pine-cone-in-rome-at-the-vatican-that-represents-the-pineal-gl/10154113866799902/

Joe Rogan is not to be taken seriously about anything. He even pushes lies about a global pandemic:
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074442185/joe-rogan-doctor-covid-podcast-spotify-misinformation

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/covid-misinformation-joe-rogan-spotify-petition-1282240/

 

If you have a credible source, we'd like to see it. Until then, it's a pinecone.

 

Quote

What I actually said was "It's an Eastern concept from religions like Hinduism", not that it's "solely related to India." I'm going to ask you nicely not to misrepresent statements I made.

Hinduism has very little or nothing to do with Taoism and religious beliefs of Ancient Egypt. 
 

Quote

It's a pinecone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_della_Pigna

 

Obviously it is a pinecone, but what it represents, why is it there?

What are those two birds which are next pinecone in Vatican? What do they represent? What Ancient Egyptians, Greeks associated with this bird? What role this bird had in medieval alchemy? How is pinecone related to this bird?

 

Quote

 

Joe Rogan called it a "pineal gland":
https://www.facebook.com/JOEROGAN/photos/this-is-a-massive-pine-cone-in-rome-at-the-vatican-that-represents-the-pineal-gl/10154113866799902/

Joe Rogan is not to be taken seriously about anything. He even pushes lies about a global pandemic:
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074442185/joe-rogan-doctor-covid-podcast-spotify-misinformation

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/covid-misinformation-joe-rogan-spotify-petition-1282240/

 

If you have a credible source, we'd like to see it. Until then, it's a pinecone.

 

Covid misinformation, Joe Rogan... That's rich.

I saw that symbol with my own eyes (2 of them) in Vatican in 2017. 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, Lezarni said:

Hinduism has very little or nothing to do with Taoism and religious beliefs of Ancient Egypt. 

 

Hinduism is an Eastern religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_religions

Chakras and similar concepts are a product of Eastern religions.

Egypt is in Africa. Africa is not in Asia.

 

4 hours ago, Lezarni said:

Obviously it is a pinecone, but what it represents, why is it there?

 

Fertility and regeneration. The Vatican kept it on to symbolize everlasting life.
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/41034/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-large-statue-of-a-pine-cone-in-vatican-city

 

 

4 hours ago, Lezarni said:

What are those two birds which are next pinecone in Vatican? What do they represent?

 

Resurrection.
https://catholicexchange.com/peacocks-considered-symbols-resurrection/

 

4 hours ago, Lezarni said:

What Ancient Egyptians, Greeks associated with this bird? What role this bird had in medieval alchemy?

 

If you must know, the Greeks believed that the peacock's eyes were the eyes of the slain Argos, so again: immortality. What they thought about the matter in Egypt is nothing to do with that pinecone statue, and nor is it relevant to the card.
 

4 hours ago, Lezarni said:

I saw that symbol with my own eyes (2 of them) in Vatican in 2017. 

Apparently you didn't have a tour guide, since you seem to think it's a "pineal gland." Nobody working at the Vatican would attribute it to that.
 

Edited January 24, 2022 by katrinka

[fire cat pickles]

Three quick searches:

 

The pine cone is connected to tree worship (fecundity) and regeneration (1st c.)

 

Descartes is the discover of the pineal gland (17 c.) 

 

The pineal gland is identified with the third eye by Blavatsky (19th c.)

 

By your reasoning that the pinecone is a pineal gland, none of it follows, literally. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by fire cat pickles

[gregory]

I - just - can't....

 

It's a jewel in a crown. That's IT. (I have been to the Vatican too - and there wasn't a pineal gland in sight.)

[katrinka]

13 minutes ago, gregory said:

I - just - can't....

 

It's a jewel in a crown. That's IT. (I have been to the Vatican too - and there wasn't a pineal gland in sight.)

Agree. All of this is has wandered beyond 'off topic' into deep space.

We have a timeline. We have geography. We have the fact that the Vatican does not endorse pineal gland theories.
It's a jewel.

 

[fire cat pickles]

9 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Agree. All of this is has wandered beyond 'off topic' into deep space.

We have a timeline. We have geography. We have the fact that the Vatican does not endorse pineal gland theories.
It's a jewel.

On 1/21/2022 at 1:23 PM, Lezarni said:

I have a question regarding of famous circle in the crown of "La Justice" card. [We] have in the crowns of the 8th cards of their decks a dot (is it a dot?) in a rhombus which is inside of a circle [...]

Can anyone share knowledge about this interesting detail which is portraited differently in the different decks?

 

Yes and yes, and it seems to be described as much in the opening post---as a jewel: "crowns {with...) a dot in a rhombus which is inside of a circle)" NOT an eye. A jewel.

[katrinka]

This is a photo of an actual pineal gland. It doesn't even look like a pinecone. It looks like something you'd find in a bag of chicken giblets.

[gregory]

Thanks katrinka - can we get back to the actual card now ? The one with a jewel in a crown?

[selena]

19 hours ago, Lezarni said:

I am sure that the creators of such a complex system as the TDM knew about these well-known things.

Lezarni there is no complex system.
 

These images were common motifs to people in the early modern period. You can look for secrets and conspiracies but sometimes a hat is a hat. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by selena

[katrinka]

Of course.

23 minutes ago, gregory said:

Thanks katrinka - can we get back to the actual card now ? The one with a jewel in a crown?

 

Absolutely. Keeping Occam's Razor in hand, it does come in handy at times...
 

11 minutes ago, selena said:

Lezarni there is no complex system.
 

These images were common motifs to people in the early modern period. You can look for secrets and conspiracies but sometimes a hat is a hat. 

 

Yes, precisely. You can find the motifs in emblem books, art, etc. But the cardmakers were mainly concerned with with producing products for people to gamble with. The TdM is a workingmans' deck. People used it in taverns.

[fire cat pickles]

20 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes, precisely. You can find the motifs in emblem books, art, etc. But the cardmakers were mainly concerned with with producing products for people to gamble with. The TdM is a workingmans' deck. People used it in taverns.

Exactly, not to mention it was a highly regulated product. The tarot history forum has stories of taxation and harassment from the authorities if you care to look there. Cardmakers were definitely under the microscope. They had to be careful, adding to the improbability that there were conspiracies to add a "complex system" to the cards. It is more likely that the Majors were simply a visual representation of the medieval morality play, among many other influences (see Paul Huson and Mary K. Greer's review here).

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by fire cat pickles

[gregory]

59 minutes ago, selena said:

Lezarni there is no complex system.
 

These images were common motifs to people in the early modern period. You can look for secrets and conspiracies but sometimes a hat is a hat. 

This. SO much this.

 

Overthinking and adding what isn't there helps no-one.  The Game of Tarot - a massive tome by a real scholar, Gerald Dummett,  is quite clear on all this.

 

I guess you won't be buying it: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Tarot-Ferrara-Salt-Lake/dp/0715610147 but it really has it all.

[Guest]

 

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

Quote

 

Hinduism is an Eastern religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_religions

Chakras and similar concepts are a product of Eastern religions.

Egypt is in Africa. Africa is not in Asia.

 

 

 

Fertility and regeneration. The Vatican kept it on to symbolize everlasting life.
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/41034/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-large-statue-of-a-pine-cone-in-vatican-city

 

 

 

Resurrection.
https://catholicexchange.com/peacocks-considered-symbols-resurrection/

 

 

If you must know, the Greeks believed that the peacock's eyes were the eyes of the slain Argos, so again: immortality. What they thought about the matter in Egypt is nothing to do with that pinecone statue, and nor is it relevant to the card.
 

Apparently you didn't have a tour guide, since you seem to think it's a "pineal gland." Nobody working at the Vatican would attribute it to that.
 

Quote

 

Hinduism is an Eastern religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_religions

Chakras and similar concepts are a product of Eastern religions.

Egypt is in Africa. Africa is not in Asia.

 

You forget to mention Taoism which is completely different from Hinduism but I'm happy it did end up in Covid misinformation section this time. 😁

Egypt is in Africa but always was considered as "Ancient Near East". New Zeeland is considered to be part of Western world but it is not in Europe.

 

Do you know that at some point of history of Ancient Egypt Greeks and Egyptians have shared gods? In Ancient Rome, Anubis was combined with Hermes and this combined deity was called Hermanubis. Do you see now connection between Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome, even though it is just one example for now? Should I add that those civilizations shared so much knowledge between themselves? 
Egyptian believes impacted on Christianity, one might say fundamentally, there are academic works available on this matter. 

The caduceus was worn by the Mesopotamian healing god Ashmun, by the ancient Egyptian gods Anubis and sometimes Isis, the Greco-Roman god Hermes-Mercury, the Phoenician god Baal.

In Christianity, the caduceus has become an attribute of Sophia (God's Wisdom). On ancient Orthodox icons, she holds it in her right hand.

Now... I assume you not gonna say caduceus is just "snake on a stick". Caduceus in the form of snake can be seen in TEMPERANCE card of Tarot De Marseille by Jean Dodal and in Camoin deck. Caduceus is well known symbol of Lemniscate and that symbol is all over TDM. Hermetic schools of England made that symbol just plain obvious in their tarots.

If you want to attach invention of TDM to the Renaissance, which is fair hypothesis, you have to ask what cultures were basis of the Renaissance.

It was only in 1992 when Vatican has accepted that Earth revolves around Sun... Do you really want me to study from tour guides? (by the way, they should have never done it...)


 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Lezarni