Spells spotted in Lenormand

[Krystalida]

So, some days ago I had a client for a reading and through her reading she told me that she was wondering if the ex of her partner has made a spell or something onto their relationship cause the ex is into witchcraft etc. and it reminded me the older card readers we have where I come from.

In the past we were always told if we had spells on us from someone in a card reading and if you find a reader here who follows the local tradition of the occult arts they will tell you,

you don't find this anymore in modern readers and myself I haven't ever learn in Tarot a way to spot spells.

 

SO I was wondering if there are any cards or any card combos in Lenormand that could give that message?

 

I could think the Stars as a spell near the Whip maybe? The Whip as something that you hit/throw to someone 

Or maybe the Stars - Clouds 

 

The Paths/Queen of Diamonds, as I've learn from @Mister

could be a woman of devious profession like a Witch maybe? or someone who uses this arts for devious purposes

 

Would really like to hear any thoughts on this!

[joy]

Interesting topic but I have never thought about it. So we are looking for a combo indicating a spell or a person indicating a spell?

[Krystalida]

39 minutes ago, joy said:

Interesting topic but I have never thought about it. So we are looking for a combo indicating a spell or a person indicating a spell?

I guess both, in one case how to spot a spell and in the other how to spot the source of the spell. .

In this case a person card shound be  involved 

[Misterei]

deleted

Edited April 26, 2024 by Misterei

[DanielJUK]

I think first we have to define the spell type. Like people do a spell for good luck or help or to wish ill on someone else.

Sometimes they are liquid spells with ingredients, to drink or have or place somewhere. Sometimes they are a spoken or written intention. Different combinations would apply to the different methods or intentions I think.

 

Agree with you @Krystalida, I think Stars would be a good thing to see in the combination.

If it is a potion type spell, Clover + Stars and it was negative maybe Snake + Clover + Stars type combinations

Snake + Clouds or Snake + Stars, like @Misterei suggested.

Lisa Boswell suggests a negative intention or a curse type of spell is Snakes + Moon, "Cursed by the Enemy, Bewitched by a Competitor". Traditionally Moon was not emotions but some people do read it as that. So I think this depends how you see it. But you could see the Snake + Moon as damaging reputation.

 

[Mister]

14 hours ago, Krystalida said:

The Paths/Queen of Diamonds, as I've learn from @Mister

could be a woman of devious profession like a Witch maybe? or someone who uses this arts for devious purposes

The "Queen of Paths" can well stand in for such a person.

However, (this is Lenormand, so:) It depends.

She is more likely to show as support when close to cards beneficial to the significator; she will be more of a meddlesome character when close to cards inhibiting the significator. For her to be an actual individual, it is preferred for either another queen or cards advocating socialising to be in her surroundings.

 

When a quest concerning spellwork is brought to the table, it is time for a healthy Yes/No.

Things do get easier when framing the question "Is X free from external black-magic influences?".

You have to be saddlefast when reading those, very much so.

 

In all my practice, the actual confirmation on applied black magic being at work happened but once!

Whip-Tower-Cross, it was.

 

Also, some characters may not believe you, for they swear they are under the influence of something - which is, in most cases, their own conciousness digging stuff too deep in search of the Balrog. Or for it is hella neat to just blame whatever goes wrong on someone doing something somewhere when comparing it with "No, it is yourself who messed up stuff badly."

Which is why there is emphasis on the 'external' above.

 

Lastly,there is culture involved, also.

My main area is germany.

It is very rare that someone here puts together a proper curse - sacrifice, aim and sustain included - so here, most of it comes down to how much an individual lets themselves be drawn and worn out by assumptions.

[Krystalida]

18 hours ago, Misterei said:

In Tarot, Devil + Moon + Magician + Fool + Courts as appropriate + other nasty cards ... VERY rare to see this.

LeNormand? I would think of the Snake first. Snake + Fox + Clouds or Moon???  Cross or Mice.  Mountain or Whip ...?

I'm a beginner/intermediate in LeNormand. Not expert. So my speculation isn't based in experience.

The Fool for Tarot! I am very surprised, maybe I will open a thread in the Tarot section.

 

Snake - Fox That's a nasty combo for sure!! not Fox - Snake though? as the Snake could be a person, Queen of Clubs

Cross could actually easy be a spell card.

 

Same here for the level, experience is the most valid in my opinion.

 

[Krystalida]

8 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

I think first we have to define the spell type. Like people do a spell for good luck or help or to wish ill on someone else.

Sometimes they are liquid spells with ingredients, to drink or have or place somewhere. Sometimes they are a spoken or written intention. Different combinations would apply to the different methods or intentions I think.

Yes I agree with that, there are different types of spell, I guess it is the intention behind and in the case of my client its probably for wishing ill.

 

8 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

Agree with you @Krystalida, I think Stars would be a good thing to see in the combination.

If it is a potion type spell, Clover + Stars and it was negative maybe Snake + Clover + Stars type combinations

Snake + Clouds or Snake + Stars, like @Misterei suggested.

Lisa Boswell suggests a negative intention or a curse type of spell is Snakes + Moon, "Cursed by the Enemy, Bewitched by a Competitor". Traditionally Moon was not emotions but some people do read it as that. So I think this depends how you see it. But you could see the Snake + Moon as damaging reputation.

 

How do you think the Clover in a spell? I wouldn;t think of it at all 🙂

Snake - Moon is a nasty too! yes damaging or diverting reputation would be my first guess in this combo,.

I m regretting not telling her to take a picture of the reading, I don't remember the combos.

 

 

[Krystalida]

6 hours ago, Mister said:

The "Queen of Paths" can well stand in for such a person.

However, (this is Lenormand, so:) It depends.

She is more likely to show as support when close to cards beneficial to the significator; she will be more of a meddlesome character when close to cards inhibiting the significator. For her to be an actual individual, it is preferred for either another queen or cards advocating socialising to be in her surroundings.

She has a lighter vibe of the other Queens? or is this applying to all court cards?

6 hours ago, Mister said:

When a quest concerning spellwork is brought to the table, it is time for a healthy Yes/No.

Things do get easier when framing the question "Is X free from external black-magic influences?".

You have to be saddlefast when reading those, very much so.

It is the best as you say it, clear.

I was thinking in general that to spot a spell you need to have this in mind when you read, in older times in a period that this concept was accepted the readers would consider it, then there was a gap of and now it seems we need to bring it back 🙂

 

6 hours ago, Mister said:

In all my practice, the actual confirmation on applied black magic being at work happened but once!

Whip-Tower-Cross, it was.

The Tower is a card that is dark but I wouldn't think of it, maybe it pointed to the place the magic applied? 

6 hours ago, Mister said:

Also, some characters may not believe you, for they swear they are under the influence of something - which is, in most cases, their own conciousness digging stuff too deep in search of the Balrog. Or for it is hella neat to just blame whatever goes wrong on someone doing something somewhere when comparing it with "No, it is yourself who messed up stuff badly."

Which is why there is emphasis on the 'external' above.

 

Lastly,there is culture involved, also.

My main area is germany.

It is very rare that someone here puts together a proper curse - sacrifice, aim and sustain included - so here, most of it comes down to how much an individual lets themselves be drawn and worn out by assumptions.

Indeed this could be a way to avoid the real issues of the relationship , (I like the Balrog reference😀)

 

I am nor involve at all in the culture there is now, but I understand lots of people are involve now, I don't know how deep and how far they go though, it is good they are not really into it 🙂

 

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, Krystalida said:

The Fool for Tarot! I am very surprised, maybe I will open a thread in the Tarot section.

 

Snake - Fox That's a nasty combo for sure!! not Fox - Snake though? as the Snake could be a person, Queen of Clubs

Cross could actually easy be a spell card.

I mean the FOOL only in this complex combination and context. Not in general.

Here the Fool is an innocent who doesn't realize a spell has been thrown on them.

 

As far as Snake+Fox vs. the other way round ... I'm beginner / intermediate in lenny ... Just guessing. I do NOT have the experience to answer your question in depth. Intuitively I agree Queen of Clubs / Snake + Cross is a thing.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Misterei

[Mister]

2 hours ago, Krystalida said:

The Tower is a card that is dark but I wouldn't think of it, maybe it pointed to the place the magic applied?

In this case, it highlighted that "it was in place for a long time".

 

2 hours ago, Krystalida said:

She has a lighter vibe of the other Queens? or is this applying to all court cards?

What exactly do you mean by "lighter vibe"?

[DanielJUK]

13 hours ago, Krystalida said:

How do you think the Clover in a spell? I wouldn;t think of it at all 🙂

Snake - Moon is a nasty too! yes damaging or diverting reputation would be my first guess in this combo,.

I m regretting not telling her to take a picture of the reading, I don't remember the combos.

 

 

 

You don't see Clover like herbs or ingredients you might put in a potion? I think it's quite a herby type card for a physical potion, herbal medicine 🙂

[Krystalida]

23 hours ago, Misterei said:

I mean the FOOL only in this complex combination and context. Not in general.

Here the Fool is an innocent who doesn't realize a spell has been thrown on them.

 

As far as Snake+Fox vs. the other way round ... I'm beginner / intermediate in lenny ... Just guessing. I do NOT have the experience to answer your question in depth. Intuitively I agree Queen of Clubs / Snake + Cross is a thing.

Indeed the Fool could be the innocent in their ignorance.

 

[Krystalida]

21 hours ago, Mister said:

In this case, it highlighted that "it was in place for a long time".

 

The long term duration of Tower card! so many ways to read them.

21 hours ago, Mister said:

What exactly do you mean by "lighter vibe"?

I meant that, when you said

 

On 10/2/2023 at 11:07 PM, Krystalida said:

For her to be an actual individual, it is preferred for either another queen or cards advocating socialising to be in her surroundings.

Is this applying only ofr the Queen of Diamonds or for all the Court cards? 
I think I've confused the thing with the "lighter vibe"

[Krystalida]

11 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

 

You don't see Clover like herbs or ingredients you might put in a potion? I think it's quite a herby type card for a physical potion, herbal medicine 🙂

Oh yes! in a very literal way 🙂

[Mister]

12 hours ago, Krystalida said:

On 10/2/2023 at 10:07 PM, Krystalida said:

For her to be an actual individual, it is preferred for either another queen or cards advocating socialising to be in her surroundings.

Is this applying only ofr the Queen of Diamonds or for all the Court cards? 
I think I've confused the thing with the "lighter vibe"

 

For me, it applies most to the Queen of Diamonds and the Jacks. The Queens of Spades and Acorns/Kreuz do not need confirmation of that sort, they seem to have more "gravity" in that regard. Queen of Hearts is semi-tricky, she does not neccessarily need confirmation, however, if there is, that makes things easier.

 

Do take note that the above is how they "come around" for me, I have witnessed variation depending on a readers leaning and/or the themes of the read.

One did read a lot on business-related stuff, and I could not help but take note that in her case, the Queen of Diamonds did more often than not refer to the position of 'the secretary' - however, any inclination towards gender had to be disregarded. A secretary it was, male or female, the Queen did not care.

In my case, she - QoD - once reinforced by other courts or socials, refers to a female person.

 

Lastly, when boarding the ship of "old cartomantic values", the Queen of Diamonds often comes with a taste of arbitrariness, to put it mildly.

When blending in some older tarot material, preferrably italian, she takes/is given the spot of the courtesan, a meaning you may also find in some older lists of values for playing cards (in milder instances, you find the words 'a flirt' - I had a laugh when Dmitry Korolev explained about the russian 36-card-method that the QoD (on her own, "a female younger than the significator"), together with one other card, would be read as "a mad obsession").

 

However, for the Game of Hope's Queen of Diamonds, it is rare (albeit not excluded) to function like that.

I feel one would be ill-advised to take it as the foremost meaning of 22, the Paths, and their Queen.

[Krystalida]

13 hours ago, Mister said:

For me, it applies most to the Queen of Diamonds and the Jacks. The Queens of Spades and Acorns/Kreuz do not need confirmation of that sort, they seem to have more "gravity" in that regard. Queen of Hearts is semi-tricky, she does not neccessarily need confirmation, however, if there is, that makes things easier.

 

Do take note that the above is how they "come around" for me, I have witnessed variation depending on a readers leaning and/or the themes of the read.

I will agreed that her presence is not so strong, she is the only Queen I don't match easy in my readings, and Queen of Hearts as you say, both cards are more "flexible"

 

13 hours ago, Mister said:

One did read a lot on business-related stuff, and I could not help but take note that in her case, the Queen of Diamonds did more often than not refer to the position of 'the secretary' - however, any inclination towards gender had to be disregarded. A secretary it was, male or female, the Queen did not care.

In my case, she - QoD - once reinforced by other courts or socials, refers to a female person.

Pretty accurate actually for a secretary, doing the practical things.

This is something I was wondering with Lenormand if they can come up etc a Queen for a Man and reverse, but this is for another thread 🙂

13 hours ago, Mister said:

Lastly, when boarding the ship of "old cartomantic values", the Queen of Diamonds often comes with a taste of arbitrariness, to put it mildly.

When blending in some older tarot material, preferrably italian, she takes/is given the spot of the courtesan, a meaning you may also find in some older lists of values for playing cards (in milder instances, you find the words 'a flirt' - I had a laugh when Dmitry Korolev explained about the russian 36-card-method that the QoD (on her own, "a female younger than the significator"), together with one other card, would be read as "a mad obsession").

 

However, for the Game of Hope's Queen of Diamonds, it is rare (albeit not excluded) to function like that.

I feel one would be ill-advised to take it as the foremost meaning of 22, the Paths, and their Queen.

It is very interesting how diverse are her meanings, like the diversity of the paths, 

You should make a thread especially for her with all these interesting ways to read her 🙂

[Mister]

31 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

You should make a thread especially for her with all these interesting ways to read her

No.

This is all in response to spell-stuff, and why/when the 22 could very well appear as a witch, given that a certain amount of sustain aligns.

Since I do indeed feel that one would be ill-advised to go: "Oh, the paths, there's a witch messing with you" - and this is online.

...

This makes me ponder whether I should prepare myself to see "Witch" included for 22, Paths in some contemporary list(s) of card values.

🙏

[Krystalida]

Apologies for my late reply, I'm cut up in a festival these days. 

 

On 10/5/2023 at 2:27 AM, Mister said:

No.

This is all in response to spell-stuff, and why/when the 22 could very well appear as a witch, given that a certain amount of sustain aligns.

Since I do indeed feel that one would be ill-advised to go: "Oh, the paths, there's a witch messing with you" - and this is online.

...

This makes me ponder whether I should prepare myself to see "Witch" included for 22, Paths in some contemporary list(s) of card values.

🙏

I think in general to see a witch or a spell you need to have from the start that concept in your mind, the older readers had it it seems. 

 

[Doktor_Zeus]

In the board game 'the Game of Hope', on which the Lenormand deck is based, the Book (26) was explicitly a grimoire. Landing on it literally placed a spell on the player, sending them back a number of spaces. The card could therefore, in the right circumstances, stand for the occult. However I would personally not read 'black magic' into it unless it was surrounded by other ill-tempered cards - i.e. the Snake or the Clouds (since 'occult' means 'obscured'). I certainly wouldn't pair it with the Woman card to mean 'witch' because the Book can also mean knowledge, and some witches are men. 'Woman-Book' is more likely to mean 'wise woman', 'schoolteacher' or even 'librarian' than 'witch', but 'Book-Snake' might be read as 'Vengeful Magic'.

 

https://www.tarotassociation.net/lenormand/GameofHope.pdf

Edited November 23, 2023 by Doktor_Zeus

[akiva]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:56 AM, Mister said:

When blending in some older tarot material, preferrably italian, she takes/is given the spot of the courtesan, a meaning you may also find in some older lists of values for playing cards (in milder instances, you find the words 'a flirt' - I had a laugh when Dmitry Korolev explained about the russian 36-card-method that the QoD (on her own, "a female younger than the significator"), together with one other card, would be read as "a mad obsession").

Flirt is the nicest name I've seen used to reference her in older writings 😂

 

Interestingly in old French cartomancy (Thylbus) the Q♦️ could easily be a witch, as she's the one who meddles in the querents affairs and can be incredibly destructive when not reversed. She's also seen as a coquette/flirt/gold digger and she's the town gossip. To be a witch though she would need to be combined with the 10♠️ which is the occult card in that tradition.

 

While other cards have quite a lot of variation country to country, she seems to always be either be a flirt, a problem, or a young person. They really didn't like here in the past! 😅

 

Bringing it back on topic:

Anything occult related for me in Lenormand would need a card that represents night-time (Moon or Stars) as night/dark is synonymous with the occult/clandestine activities, but there would need to be other cards there to verify this. Depending on what the querent's question is of course.

I'd probably swing more towards Stars as it can represent direction, will, intelligence, divination and science. Then whatever cards combine with it give the nature of the occult workings. 

 

A few ideas that come to mind:

Stars + Sun: Throwing energy/Reiki/Energy work

Stars + Clover: Charms, talismans, amulets

Stars + Tower: Remote viewing (possibly astral projection? Might need rider for that)

Stars + Mountain: Binding

Stars + Rod/Whip: Banishing/clearing space

Stars + Flowers: If planetary magick then working with Venus. Else a spell or something you give to someone. Like those jars people leave on doorsteps.

House + Stars: A temple or place of practice (not a coven though).

 

Lillies can represent covens as it signifies family, which in turn can signify closed groups... I think Andy B said this in his book? 🤔 I'll have to dig it out and see. 

 

It's really fun thinking of potential combos!

[Krystalida]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:58 AM, Doktor_Zeus said:

In the board game 'the Game of Hope', on which the Lenormand deck is based, the Book (26) was explicitly a grimoire. Landing on it literally placed a spell on the player, sending them back a number of spaces. The card could therefore, in the right circumstances, stand for the occult. However I would personally not read 'black magic' into it unless it was surrounded by other ill-tempered cards - i.e. the Snake or the Clouds (since 'occult' means 'obscured'). I certainly wouldn't pair it with the Woman card to mean 'witch' because the Book can also mean knowledge, and some witches are men. 'Woman-Book' is more likely to mean 'wise woman', 'schoolteacher' or even 'librarian' than 'witch', but 'Book-Snake' might be read as 'Vengeful Magic'.

 

https://www.tarotassociation.net/lenormand/GameofHope.pdf

Interesting

Are the meanings or the roles of the cards of the Game of Hope, relevant with  Lemonard?

[Krystalida]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:05 PM, akiva said:

Flirt is the nicest name I've seen used to reference her in older writings 😂

 

Interestingly in old French cartomancy (Thylbus) the Q♦️ could easily be a witch, as she's the one who meddles in the querents affairs and can be incredibly destructive when not reversed. She's also seen as a coquette/flirt/gold digger and she's the town gossip. To be a witch though she would need to be combined with the 10♠️ which is the occult card in that tradition.

 

While other cards have quite a lot of variation country to country, she seems to always be either be a flirt, a problem, or a young person. They really didn't like here in the past! 😅

There is so much information around the Queen of Diamonds, I will make a special thread for it. 🙂

 

On 11/23/2023 at 1:05 PM, akiva said:

Bringing it back on topic:

Anything occult related for me in Lenormand would need a card that represents night-time (Moon or Stars) as night/dark is synonymous with the occult/clandestine activities, but there would need to be other cards there to verify this. Depending on what the querent's question is of course.

I'd probably swing more towards Stars as it can represent direction, will, intelligence, divination and science. Then whatever cards combine with it give the nature of the occult workings. 

 

A few ideas that come to mind:

Stars + Sun: Throwing energy/Reiki/Energy work

Stars + Clover: Charms, talismans, amulets

Stars + Tower: Remote viewing (possibly astral projection? Might need rider for that)

Stars + Mountain: Binding

Stars + Rod/Whip: Banishing/clearing space

Stars + Flowers: If planetary magick then working with Venus. Else a spell or something you give to someone. Like those jars people leave on doorsteps.

House + Stars: A temple or place of practice (not a coven though).

Stars was also in my options as the Divine factor,

I like the positive spelling you put here 🙂

 

For binding I would think of the Ring along with the combo

[akiva]

12 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

There is so much information around the Queen of Diamonds, I will make a special thread for it. 🙂

She's certainly a character, I prefer to see her as more unreliable than some of the ways she's been depicted, it also kind of fits with the idea of paths being two options. Like someone who hesitates too much! 😊

 

13 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

For binding I would think of the Ring along with the combo

I didn't think of ring, so obvious! 🤦‍♂️😅 I was thinking of mountain as immovable/blocked, or even the calcification health meaning Andy B gives. 

 

Another potential one could be Stars + Scythe + Ring + a person card as cord cutting...

[Doktor_Zeus]

22 minutes ago, Krystalida said:

Interesting

Are the meanings or the roles of the cards of the Game of Hope, relevant with  Lemonard?

i don’t see why not. The Game of Hope did have a fortune telling option and, although it was woefully underdeveloped, it does seem to have introduced the basic tableau layout. However it left most of the interpretation to the individual and it was down to later readers like Mssle Lenormand herself to introduce most of the nuance to it.

 

At least one respected source, Caitlìn Matthews, does give ‘the occult’ as a potential meaning for ‘the Book’.

 

Many of the other traditional interpretations, including the significator cards, and the negative connotations of the Coffin and the Cross, are present in the Game of Hope’s rules too.