Diversity in Decks - What does it mean - Critical Thinking beyond politics and trends

[Misterei]

Political discussion is strictly forbidden on this site, so I intend this as a philosophical commentary or discussion if others chime in.

 

Tarocchi came from Renaissance Italy and in those early cards we see light skin and blond hair often depicted. The Northern Italians were generally lighter than the darker skin and hair in South Italy. Was it political / status at all? I have no idea. These were the noble families of Northern Italy. I don't know if the artists painted them lighter for status or if they really were blond with light skin.

 

RWS came along in the 1900s and although the Occult revival gave serious credence to the spirituality of India and Tibet this didn't extend into Tarots. RWS depicted British-looking people. No other races.

 

As tarot had become worldwide in the 2000s, we saw the need for a plurality of races. It's gone way beyond Italy or England at this point. I had a Nigerian-American student who used an African themed deck. This seemed quite normal to me. I was glad she found such a deck to buy. 

 

I have also seen posts and blogs that focus on Deck Creators of certain skin colors or nationalities. This makes me sadder than I can say. It strikes me that we are going backwards if we focus on on the race of the deck creator rather than the CONTENT of the deck. I also fear that good decks might get criticized if the creator isn't the *right* race or nationality. It's a slippery slope when we focus on the skin color of the artist rather than the art itself.

 

I love that Anino Lenormand illustrates Philipine people and imagery. It doesn't matter to me that the *artist* is Philipine. I bought the deck because i appreciate his work. Narciso also illustrated Gravenchase Lenormand with purely Euro characters. I don't want to put artists in boxes according to their skin color or nationality. They create what they create.

 

Likewise, I adore Fyodor Pavlov Tarot for its trans and gender fluid imagery. I know nothing about this artist's personal life or pronouns. I don't care. It's the art and soul of the deck--NOT the orientation of the creator that matters to me.

 

As I commented on another post [which was the seed of this one], I've noticed that *diversity* in Tarots or Lenormands seldom include OLD PEOPLE. If Tarots have become a global phenomena that includes a plurality of nationalities, orientations, and genders---shouldn't we also include a plurality of ages? I feel depressed every time I see a racially diverse deck that depicts all young people. I *want* to like the deck but diversity that confines itself to images of only young people is trendy and shallow.

 

I will never, never buy a deck based on the skin color or nationality of the artist.

 

The digital revolution means *anyone* of any nationality or orientation can produce a deck now-a-days. We no longer live in a world where access to printing or publication is limited. It's a wide open level playing field for anyone with a computer and internet connection.

 

 

[fire cat pickles]

I don't look at decks based on race or gender particularly either. But if the aged are left out, are the differently-abled and/or the neurodivergent also left out? (I know at least one deck where they are, but I can't recall which one at the moment—I think it's the one whose creator is no longer with us...) How far are creators expected to go in their creations to be expected to be wholly inclusive? Slippery slope indeed.

[DanielJUK]

I am not sure this is the no politics as described in the rules, talking about diversity or the lack of it in decks is fine 🙂 

 

When those historic decks were produced, they were probably created for a certain group of people. Like art created in Europe at the time, it was to sell to white people. There wasn't diversity in their creation. They were created to sell to the largest customer base, the majority of people in the area.

 

When I first came to tarot in my teens, decks were not really diverse. The thinking in the 90's and 2000's was that tarot was not literally representative and you don't have to identify with the people on the cards. But in those times it was still suggested to pick a signficator card from one of the Suits. I wrote this in another thread but this is the RWS descriptions based on the Golden Dawn elements of each suit....

 

Wands Courts have Dark blondey light Brown/ red hair and a Fair to Olive Complexion

Cups Courts have Light Blonde hair and a Pale to Olive Complexion

Swords Courts have Black Hair and Pale Complexion

Pentacles Courts have Dark Brown to Black Hair and Dark Complexion

They also have eye colours and body shapes which tend to be the same to the suits as well

 

It's really reductive to us as humans, we are complicated as people and in our appearance / gender and skin colour. Which do you choose if you are mixed race? Is everyone dark skinned, automatically Pentacles?

In modern times we have got around this by ignoring the choosing by looks and going for characteristics of the person or astrology or whatever method.

 

I don't read professionally but do a lot of readings in the LGBT+ community and do a high percentage of readings for minorities. Discussing it with them I have realised that they often just want to see themselves represented in decks being used for them. By appearance and same sex lovers, non-binary people, etc. It's possible to have diversity in the people in a deck but it can be difficult to represent every single person. Also there is a wide differing of opinions, some people would be happy to be represented by different coloured shapes and no humans at all. It's complicated! I think things are so much better now in the last ten years, a lot of it from self-publishing! Fyodor Pavlov is openly trans and queer online and wanted to create a deck which featured trans people and bodies. But there is more there, they describe themselves as a Post-Raphaelite, their artwork is an expression of their aesthetic, how they dress and the things they love. Their art started in tattoo art for people. You can really see this in the deck, all those areas. Our friend of the forum (and friend to many of us), @BlueToy creates decks about their home in the Philippines and about Asia. They share the history and the myths and legends of their culture in the cards. We didn't see this like 10 years ago and it's wonderful! I have seen some decks with older people in and also disabled people, but that is really only in the last 5 years. Feels like the final front of deck representation.

 

The worst form of these decks though are ones which are just made for diversities sake. We all know some modern decks which are reductive as the original cards, box ticking. It's got to be cleverer than that. I think the best of these decks are people's own personal experiences, it just seems to flow naturally and are inclusive, when they produce the cards of the community they know. I like to have a diverse selection of decks for people to choose which they feel drawn to and some people really want to be represented and others are happy with a RWS deck.

 

For me, it is important about the details of deck artists and creators. Artists of colour and Queer / LGBT+ artists have a much harder time selling decks still, even self-publishing. It's important (for me anyway) to support minority artists, we will lose diversity in the decks published, if they becomes inaccessible due to the cost of creation.

[Misterei]

13 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

... if the aged are left out, are the differently-abled and/or the neurodivergent also left out? .

I've seen a few decks where Hermit isn't old. Likewise, Emperor to me should be a mature man. Maybe not old per se. But he seems quite young in some decks.

 

I think Priestess or Hierophant can be good as older people due to the meaning of the cards.

 

I agree with you it's impossible to represent everything and everyone in every deck. Yet there *are* some cards [like Hermit] where the aged aspect is part of the card meaning. And to lose that violates the card meaning and seems like an erasure of old people.

Edited July 20, 2024 by Misterei

[Misterei]

5 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

Wands Courts have Dark blondey light Brown/ red hair and a Fair to Olive Complexion

Cups Courts have Light Blonde hair and a Pale to Olive Complexion

Swords Courts have Black Hair and Pale Complexion

Pentacles Courts have Dark Brown to Black Hair and Dark Complexion

They also have eye colours and body shapes which tend to be the same to the suits as well

LOL this is why I take an ayurvedic approach to the Courts. Any court can be modified to any race. I also hated the idea that black people were *always* pentacles or whatnot. Ayurvedic approach Cups people are Kapha body type and constitution. And this holds for any race. A kapha black, brown, olive, or white person is a Cups court. Too long to get into here---but it works for me.

5 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

I don't read professionally but do a lot of readings in the LGBT+ community and do a high percentage of readings for minorities. Discussing it with them I have realised that they often just want to see themselves represented i

Yes, this seems natural to me. Similar to my Nigerian student. Even I was happy to discover a Greek themed Lenormand and love my Russian themed tarot [being Greek and Russian]

5 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

The worst form of these decks though are ones which are just made for diversities sake. We all know some modern decks which are reductive as the original cards, box ticking. It's got to be cleverer than that.

Exactly!

5 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

For me, it is important about the details of deck artists and creators. Artists of colour and Queer / LGBT+ artists have a much harder time selling decks still, even self-publishing....

Is this true now?

 

I agree it was true prior to the digital revolution when access to Publishing depended on selling your work to US Games [or whatnot] but now a days I see LGBT creators making insane amounts of money on Kickstarter. Pavlov deck started on Kickstarter and then got picked-up by US Games.

 

Marchetti has Gay men in some of his decks and he's doing great. He's one of the most loved and respected artists in Tarot community.

 

This is part of my observation. Tarot community *has* got to a place were any artist has a shot at success with digital publishing and kickstarter. I don't see LGBT artists at a disadvantage in the present day. A media-savvy LGBT creator can market to that community and leverage this into commercial success.

 

To me, the creators who are at a disadvantage *now* are those who aren't social-media savvy. They could be straight or gay, black or white. If they don't know how to do a good kickstarter campaign, they may go nowhere.

Edited July 20, 2024 by Misterei

[dancing_moon]

For me, the question of diversity isn't about having every kind of person in every single deck. As much as I'd love to own a deck with 8 billion cards in it (somebody, please, hurry and make that one already!), a single deck couldn't possibly cover each and every human variation and experience out there. What I'd love to see is an endless diversity of decks themselves: old people decks, disabled people decks, people of color decks, gender spectrum decks, asexual/aromantic decks, etc. Each deck will, of course, only accomplish so much - it's the ability to find and choose what suits oneself that matters. In the end, each reader will build their own toolkit according to their preferences, mixing and matching what's available - and what's available now is miles and miles ahead of what used to be. 

 

19 hours ago, Misterei said:

I will never, never buy a deck based on the skin color or nationality of the artist.

 

I think the most important point here is that a (usually white) person who doesn't belong to a (usually non-white/non-Western) culture will have a harder time making a deck that depicts that culture accurately and respectfully. Personally, I'm wary of such decks, and yeah, if the deck's name has "Japanese/Aztec/Kongo" etc. in its name, I fully expect to see on the list of its creators at least one person's name from that region. I'd be really upset to see a Ukraine-themed deck where the creators who have no slightest connection to my country would be shuffling cliches and stereotypes. Like you said, in this digital age, lots of things are possible - the least one could do is hire a consultant from that culture, apply their recommendations, and then list them among the creators.

Edited July 20, 2024 by dancing_moon

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, dancing_moon said:

 I think the most important point here is that a (usually white) person who doesn't belong to a (usually non-white/non-Western) culture will have a harder time making a deck that depicts that culture accurately and respectfully.

Is this true?

 

Previously, I used the example of Philipine artist Narcsio creating Gravenchase Lenormand which has all Euro characters and imagery. It's a lovely deck. I don't think him being Philipine makes his Euro themed deck less authentic or less respectful.

 

Tarocchi is originally Italian. So should we say *only* Italians should make Tarocchi decks b/c other nationalities will get it wrong? Or have a "harder time making a deck that depicts that culture accurately and respectfully".

 

I am Greek American but I practice Indian Astrology. Should I only do Hellenistic Astrology b/c I'm Greek?

 

As a dancer, I learned Greek dances, but also Turkish and Russian Roman dances. I had a student who was pure Roma. She didn't care about my nationality. She could see I knew the dances and music. To your point, she would NOT study with me if I was doing a fake *gypsy schtick* but she could see [and respect] my level of education and knowledge about the dance and music.

 

Cultures are meant to be shared.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Misterei

[dancing_moon]

7 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Is this true?

 

Previously, I used the example of Philipine artist Narcsio creating Gravenchase Lenormand which has all Euro characters and imagery. It's a lovely deck. I don't think him being Philipine makes his Euro themed deck less authentic or less respectful.

 

European cultures are so widely known and privileged that there's little chance for anyone to either get something wrong or to offend anyone. Now, if I as a white person tried to make a Phillippine-themed deck, it would take me a tremendous amount of research to get it right. It wouldn't be impossible - just very hard.

 

7 minutes ago, Misterei said:

So should we say *only* Italians should make Tarocchi decks b/c other nationalities will get it wrong? Or have a "harder time making a deck that depicts that culture accurately and respectfully".

 

I'd say, because Renaissance Italy doesn't exist anymore, then making a deck depicting that particular era is more of a question of historical accuracy. 

 

7 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I am Greek American but I practice Indian Astrology. Should I only do Hellenistic Astrology b/c I'm Greek?

 

7 minutes ago, Misterei said:

As a dancer, I learned Greek dances, but also Turkish and Russian Roman dances. I had a student who was pure Roma. She didn't care about my nationality. She could see I knew the dances and music. To your point, she would NOT study with me if I was doing a fake *gypsy schtick* but she could see [and respect] my level of education and knowledge about the dance and music.

 

Cultures are meant to be shared.

 

My point is exactly about the "fake Gypsy schtick": it's fine if one learns about another culture from authentic sources (as, I'm sure, you did with both Indian astrology and the dances), but sadly, this isn't always the case. And outsiders to a culture simply need to be more diligent in their studies in order to get everything right. Again, I think this isn't a matter of "it's impossible", just a matter of "it takes hard work and special care".

[Misterei]

14 hours ago, dancing_moon said:

European cultures are so widely known and privileged that there's little chance for anyone to either get something wrong or to offend anyone. ...

First of all, thank you for your thought-provoking replies.

 

Is this globally true?

 

India has a decent understanding of British culture since the Brits occupied them for many years.

But China?  I have seen Chinese people do things based on Euro or American culture and they get it wrong. Likewise various other cultures *knocking-off* American culture.

 

Our modern trend is to *only* see how American or Euro peoples get other cultures wrong [i.e. offensive Gypsy schtick in Tarots]. But we never discuss how other cultures get wrong Euro or American culture.

14 hours ago, dancing_moon said:

I'd say, because Renaissance Italy doesn't exist anymore, then making a deck depicting that particular era is more of a question of historical accuracy. 

Yet an Italian person may have a much deeper understanding of the culture and imagery of the Italian Renaissance. Can this depth be reproduced by a Japanese artist?  Or a Peruvian artist?

If the answer is *yes* then we must allow that Euro people can delve into non-Euro cultures too.

14 hours ago, dancing_moon said:

My point is exactly about the "fake Gypsy schtick": it's fine if one learns about another culture from authentic sources (as, I'm sure, you did with both Indian astrology and the dances), but sadly, this isn't always the case. And outsiders to a culture simply need to be more diligent in their studies in order to get everything right. Again, I think this isn't a matter of "it's impossible", just a matter of "it takes hard work and special care".

Agree 100%.

 

My argument is with the assumption that it *only goes one way.*  In the dance world AND the Tarot world there is/was a problem with *Gypsy Schtick*.

***BUT***

I have seen videos of Turkish Roman girls twerking to 9/8 [a rhythm used in Turkish music that is very UN-american]. What do we say about the Romani girls tweking to 9/8? What do we say about Albanian Gangsta Rap? What do we say about Japanese swing dancers? What do we say about Asian Tarots that kinda don't hit because they get Western culture slightly wrong.

 

What do we say about *Euro Schtick* ? Or *American Schtick* ?

 

The band Kutur Shock took Seattle Alternative Rock and put it on 7/8 and 9/8 rhythms with Balkan melodic riffs. The Afghani band Al Qayna fused traditional Afghani music into American Heavy Metal. Listen to Dakh Daughters "Rozy Donbass". It's a Ukranian Punk Girl Band song. Like a really dark iteration of The Bangles.

 

Can this happen in Tarot? Can we explore cultural fusion without assuming the White/Euro people always *appropriate* or get other cultures wrong?

 

When non-euro creators make Tarots or Lenormands based-on their cultures, It's a *FUSION* of Euro culture with another culture. Why is there a trend to pretend Euro culture isn't part of the equation?

 

As far as I can see---it's a two-way street. Sometimes people [Euro, Asian, ANY PEOPLE] get it wrong and it's a *schtick*.

But when people get it right---it's magic.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Misterei

[dancing_moon]

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

First of all, thank you for your thought-provoking replies.

 

Thank you for your thought-provoking questions 🙂

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

Is this globally true?

 

I'm not sure. I'd guess it's true for wherever Western culture and/or unrestricted Internet are accessible. I think a lot of countries in the world have been westernized to some degree, and it's probably safe to assume that most people who have the time, education, and means of producing a Tarot deck will also have been exposed to the Western world.

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

Our modern trend is to *only* see how American or Euro peoples get other cultures wrong [i.e. offensive Gypsy schtick in Tarots]. But we never discuss how other cultures get wrong Euro or American culture.

 

As I mentioned above, I think this is mostly because of the imbalance of privilege/power. America and Europe include some of the richest and most powerful nations of the world. Their national identities and cultures are widely recognized and accepted. It's hard to imagine how even a blatantly untrue depiction of their cultures could really hurt them or erase their national identities - they're just much too powerful for that, and they can easily counter it with all the political, financial, etc. leverage that they have. On the other hand, a lot of cultures and ethnicities are still struggling for recognition and respect, and every reinforcement of a cliche or error might do some real harm. That's why I think the discussion usually leans heavily in that direction: a non-Western culture getting a Western one wrong just doesn't have the same impact.

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

Yet an Italian person may have a much deeper understanding of the culture and imagery of the Italian Renaissance. Can this depth be reproduced by a Japanese artist?  Or a Peruvian artist?

If the answer is *yes* then we must allow that Euro people can delve into non-Euro cultures too.

 

Of course, they can. And I agree it can and should be a two-way street - I never said otherwise. My only point was that one half of that street is much bumpier and narrower than the other one, and so needs more care navigating.

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

Can this happen in Tarot? Can we explore cultural fusion without assuming the White/Euro people always *appropriate* or get other cultures wrong?

 

I'd love to explore that - perhaps, on examples of real decks? Maybe, even in a separate thread? Full disclosure: I probably am biased against culture-themed decks that have no people of that culture among its creators. But the world is a big place - there must be decks out there I don't know about, decks made by knowledgeable people from a different culture that get it right, and I'm willing to keep an open mind 🙂

[Misterei]

On 7/21/2024 at 7:30 PM, dancing_moon said:

... I'm not sure. I'd guess it's true for wherever Western culture and/or unrestricted Internet are accessible. I think a lot of countries in the world have been westernized to some degree, and it's probably safe to assume that most people who have the time, education, and means of producing a Tarot deck will also have been exposed to the Western world.

This brings up an interesting angle. It's true what you say. OTOH, Tarots themselves are a product of Western / Euro culture. So we couldn't even have a Sufi Tarot or Native American Tarot [for example] without Western / Euro culture. It's an interesting equation. The socio-political dominance of Western Culture vs. the fact that NO ONE would have Tarots if it weren't for Western culture.

On 7/21/2024 at 7:30 PM, dancing_moon said:

... the imbalance of privilege/power. America and Europe include some of the richest and most powerful nations of the world. Their national identities and cultures are widely recognized and accepted. It's hard to imagine how even a blatantly untrue depiction of their cultures could really hurt them or erase their national identities ... On the other hand, a lot of cultures and ethnicities are still struggling for recognition and respect, and every reinforcement of a cliche or error might do some real harm. That's why I think the discussion usually leans heavily in that direction: a non-Western culture getting a Western one wrong just doesn't have the same impact.

OK I take your point. OTOH I also see that the West is in decline of this power. Part of this decline seems to arise from a self-hatred and disrespect for our own traditions. I have observed posters on Tarot Reddit express hatred of Neoplatonism [for example] and a total disrespect and hatred for the very roots of Tarot. Which begs the question: If you hate the philosophical and cultural roots of Tarot---then why are you a Tarot reader? Why are you on Tarot Reddit?

On 7/21/2024 at 7:30 PM, dancing_moon said:

My only point was that one half of that street is much bumpier and narrower than the other one, and so needs more care navigating.

I think this *was* true. Is it still true? Especially in the Tarot community which is pretty open and inclusive these days.

Per above, i felt quite shocked at expressions of hatred against the very cultures and philosophies that produced Tarot. It reminds me of people who hate their own parents---I will seldom to never think this is healthy. [and no, I didn't have a happy childhood or functional family but I still love my deeply flawed parents].

On 7/21/2024 at 7:30 PM, dancing_moon said:

... I probably am biased against culture-themed decks that have no people of that culture among its creators.

LOL This is pretty natural. Humans have biases. The best we can hope for is to be self-aware and use Higher Mind to overcome them 😉

I will admit my own bias toward Italian decks since I feel these are somehow more authentic.

 

Of ethnic theme decks i have sufi Tarot [done by an Iranian-American woman] Golden Wheel [pretty sure the creator is Eastern Euro] and Oriental by Daniloff which is a Russian artist illustrating a deck in the style of Persian miniatures. I also have his Greek themed Lenormand. Daniloff decks are about artistic style. I  dont care if he's Russian. He can capture the mood of Persian miniatures or Ancient Greek pottery by his artistic skill. Then again these decks are quite openly *art* decks, so they are different than Golden Wheel or Sufi which are culture decks [i.e. they blend Sufi philosophy or Eastern Euro folklore into Tarot]

Edited July 23, 2024 by Misterei

[dancing_moon]

27 minutes ago, Misterei said:

This brings up an interesting angle. It's true what you say. OTOH, Tarots themselves are a product of Western / Euro culture.

 

At least, the Major Arcana seem to originate in Europe. The Minors, however, might have been borrowed from China and/or the Middle East. Now things are getting even more complicated 😆

 

27 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I have observed posters on Tarot Reddit express hatred of Neoplatonism [for example] and a total disrespect and hatred for the very roots of Tarot.

 

I haven't heard of this - but then, I'm not on Reddit. It's a bit sad, then, - I think the parent analogy is very fitting here.

 

27 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I think this *was* true. Is it still true? Especially in the Tarot community which is pretty open and inclusive these days.

 

I think it's much better than it used to be - with the arrival of the Internet, with the sheer amount of information and contacts available. It's still a sizable heap of work, though, - probably even more so now when Tarot creators are held to higher standards. The days of "the faraway and mysterious (East/Africa/South America, etc.)" are, alas, irrevercibly gone (except in artistic interpretations, maybe, like Daniloff's art that you mentioned). 

 

27 minutes ago, Misterei said:

LOL This is pretty natural. Humans have biases. The best we can hope for is to be self-aware and use Higher Mind to overcome them 😉

 

Too true 😄

 

27 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I will admit my own bias toward Italian decks since I feel these are somehow more authentic.

 

I love Italian decks too, for the same reason (my taste is also tarnished with love for Marseilles decks - but that's a topic for another day 😆).

[Misterei]

48 minutes ago, dancing_moon said:

At least, the Major Arcana seem to originate in Europe. The Minors, however, might have been borrowed from China and/or the Middle East. Now things are getting even more complicated 😆

China 900 ce - paper invented and used to write cards for gambling games [of course]

Mamluks 1100 ce - took Chinese paper and invented the card deck that would be the mother of playing cards to play their Game of Kings and Deputies. The Mamluks also brought cards to the Moghuls who took them to India where they eventually became Ganjifa cards.

Spain 1200 ce - Took mamluk cards and made the first Euro playing cards. Similar to modern playing cards.

Italy 1400 ce - Tarocchi adds a 5th suit called Triunfi (Trumps) and Tarot is born. Likely we owe much of the Triunfi symbolism to a Greek named Plithon, Cosimi di Medici, and Marcilio Ficino who brought Works of Plato and The Hermetica out of obscurity and back into circulation. But that's another story 😉

Edited July 23, 2024 by Misterei