The curious counting of Mr Waite

[MrMole]

Okay, the Pictorial Key To The Tarot seems to wedge 0 - (the fool), between XX(last judgement) and XXI(The World). Wedging the Fool in that place seems... I don't know... it's not arbitrary, I mean the idea that the fool is caught between Judgement and The World seems quite poetic on some level, but it just feels 'forced'. Does anyone have any thoughts why he did this?

[Aeon418]

A. E. Waite was familiar with a system of "secret" tarot correspondences that were taught in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. In that system the Fool card is associated with the element of Air and the Last Judgment with Spirit.

 

However, Waite also knew that the "Breath of God" (Heb: Ruach Elohim) was numerically linked with the element of Spirit. This creates a potential ambiguity. Is the Fool a representation of the Divine Breath/Air? Or is the Air blown through the trumpet by the Angel the Divine Breath/Air that awakens the dead?

 

In my opinion this is typical A. E. Waite style obfuscation. In reality he did accept that the tarot sequence began with the Fool. But whether he was remaining true to his oaths or delighted in throwing dust in the eyes of the ignorant (or both 😉) he did publish things for the general public that were at variance with what he was taught in "secret".  

[DanielJUK]

I've moved this thread to the RWS section where it fits better 🙂 

 

I was reading recently online that in the Pictorial Key To The Tarot, Waite writes an interpretation of the cards. However he vowed to the Golden Dawn he wouldn't reveal the secret correspondences. I have been thinking about this recently. Like why is The Fool = 0 in the book? He doesn't explain it! In that book he doesn't explain "why" anything, just this card means this in his view. We know a lot of them now but not with his help

[Aeon418]

6 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

Like why is The Fool = 0 in the book? He doesn't explain it! 

 

IMO. A typical bit of Waite! 🙄

 

By placing the Fool where he did between the Last Judgment and the World he's alluding to older packs and traditions where the Fool is unnumbered and can be placed later in the sequence of cards. But by numbering the card he's dropping a little hint and tipping us off that something isn't quite right. It's a secret hidden in plain sight.

 

But the design of the Fool and the Judgement cards adds another level of ambiguity. The Fool's coat has multiple emblems of Spirit on it. While the trumpet and the clouds below the Angel on card XX also suggest Air despite the fact that his hair is on fire, which is consistent with the Golden Dawn dual attribution of Spirit/Fire to this card.

 

By muddying the water so much Waite was able to simultaneously break and keep his Golden Dawn oaths of secrecy. 😵     

[DanielJUK]

Thank you @Aeon418 🙏 so interesting. He tried to do both! 😄 

[Aeon418]

It's interesting to note that Waite's Golden Dawn contemporary, Aleister Crowley, placed the child Harpocrates on card XX. This is despite the fact that he clearly identifies Harpocrates with the Fool card and the element of Air. But he is depicted standing in front of the seated Horus - the Lord of Fire - within an Akashic Spirit egg. But Crowley also identifies Akasha with the Fool card. This is meant to show how cards 0 and XX are two expressions of one thing. Overly simplified, it is meant to symbolise secret and un-manifest pure divine potential (0) and the same energy expressed and manifested as fiery, regenerative spirit (XX).

 

IMO, Waite is doing something similar but more clumsily in the RWS deck.    

[MrMole]

I think I may be close... but it's a bit convoluted...

If you take the sequence XXOXXI and treat it numerologically, the 10s reduce to 1s, so you get the sequence. 110111. The similarity to the original is intriguing. Okay, so lets map that to the minor arcana. Keep,keep, throw, keep keep, keep (repeat). What happens is that we throw out cards 3s and 8s. We end up with each suite having 10 cards that (strangely) seems to map more closely with the Fools journey of the Major Arcana...

 

Retained Cards:
Beginnings (Aces)
Partnerships and decisions (Twos)
Stability and challenges (Fours and Fives)
Harmony and progress (Sixes)
Perseverance and introspection (Sevens)
Nearing completion (Nines)
Completion and fulfillment (Tens)

Removed Cards:
Initial growth and celebration (Threes)
Mastery and movement (Eights)

 

Obviously, the court cards are unaffected as they are not numbered.

I don't know if I'm clutching at straws here, but it seems kind of...weird.

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by MrMole

[Scandinavianhermit]

On 9/29/2024 at 2:42 PM, MrMole said:

Okay, the Pictorial Key To The Tarot seems to wedge 0 - (the fool), between XX(last judgement) and XXI(The World). Wedging the Fool in that place seems... I don't know... it's not arbitrary, I mean the idea that the fool is caught between Judgement and The World seems quite poetic on some level, but it just feels 'forced'. Does anyone have any thoughts why he did this?

French 19th century Occultists into tarot – Eliphas Levi, Paul Christian, Oswald Wirth and Papus – all put the Fool between Last Judgement and the World. 

[Teemu]

I think it does not matter in the end, if you are familiar with the card's qualities. The fool is the fool. I do not like to be restricted by rigid systems. And I am not a fan of numerology because it feels arbitrary to me.

 

[geoxena]

13 hours ago, Teemu said:

I am not a fan of numerology because it feels arbitrary to me.

 

The way I see it, it's ALL arbitrary.  After all, there had to be a beginning point when someone, somewhere, long ago, said, "Hmm, let's see.  I think I'll ascribe meanings to these symbols and numbers."  It doesn't matter whether we're talking about tarot, numerology, astrology, the i-ching, dream interpretation, tea leaves, or whatever - all these so-called systems started when someone arbitrarily decided "this means that and that means this."

Edited October 27, 2024 by geoxena