Lenormand Method of Houses -- Modern or Traditional?

[Misterei]

The common wisdom I've read here is that the only *traditional* method of Lenormand is the GT and Method of Distance described by the original Philippe Lenormand instructions. I've been told that reading houses is a newer method which came in vogue recently.

 

Yet the original Game of Hope [1799] laid a 6x6 tableau of the cards as houses. As a game, players rolled dice and moved a token around the tableau.

Is it possible that fortune tellers might have started reading houses as per the Game of Hope tableau?

 

Reading houses is documented in 1875 L'oracle Parfait [picture below]; but it has different houses than the Game of Hope and it's laid 9x4.

Then there was an Englsh language Master Method that appeared in 1915 by Foli which seems to be a translation of the 1875 L'oracle Parfait, but laid as a 6x6.

 

So is it possible that reading houses as per Game of Hope / Lenormand *is* a traditional reading method and has been around longer than we think?

 

Disambiguation: I mean reading houses where the houses correspond with the card of that number. I.e. H1 corresponds to Rider and shows what is coming to you. H18 corresponds to Dog and shows friendships and loyalties. H34 shows finances, etc.

 

Reading with houses feels like my sweet spot, but it doesn't feel trendy or modern. It feels connected to the original Game of Hope. Surely people were doing this sooner than YouTube????

 

Can it be said that reading Lenormand according to Game of Hope houses is a traditional method?

Your thoughts? Documents I should check out?

 

 

 

 

[gregory]

Wasn't that diagram used for playing cards rather than any oracle decks ? The game of hope was a board game, not a reading  method.

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Wasn't that diagram used for playing cards rather than any oracle decks ? The game of hope was a board game, not a reading  method.

Yes. I think the diagram was for playing cards. It was from a French book called L'Oracle Parfait, Ou Le Passe Temps Des Dames: Art de Tirer Les Cartes Avec Explication (Éd.1875)

 

Yes, Game of Hope was what we now call a board game, but back in the day it wasn't a board as per our modern games. Back in the day it was a deck of cards that you laid in tableau to make the board and play the game.

 

Internet says this:

The Game of Hope originated as the parlor game Das Spiel der Hofnung by J.K. Hechtel who created it some time during the late 1790s. It contained 36 cards. The game required that the cards be laid in lines of 9x4 as if squares on a modern day board game.

 

Other sources I've read say you laid it 6x6 but all agree the *board* was a deck of 36 cards.

 

The connection between games of chance and fortune telling fascinates me. Shamans cast bones and then bones were carved into dice. It's through history. As per Lenormand, one might surmise that cards used for playing the Game of Hope got associated with playing cards and used to tell a fortune. Et voila! Lenormand is born. Or something along those lines. Coffee cards got into the mix too.

 

I guess to refine my question: is the idea of using Lenormand houses as traditional as the Master Method houses [which has been around at least since 1875]?

 

Were people using Lenormand houses back in the 1800s or early 1900s ... just not writing books about it?

Edited October 29, 2024 by Misterei

[JoyousGirl]

I can't really contribute to the technique side of things, as I've only got one Lenormand deck which I used rarely after repeatedly getting awful cards! Perhaps I'll pull them out again because I was working for a micromanager who made my life hell at the time I was using them.

 

As for the following 

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

Were people using Lenormand houses back in the 1800s or early 1900s ... just not writing books about it?

 

I remember reading an account by someone who met her and they suggested words to the effect she was somewhat uncomely and working from a bit of a dump. But he did admit she was quite smart, despite lacking a certain gentility he was used to.  This was a different time, too - class structures and landed gentry etc.  So I would say that whilst the wealthy consulted her, which ultimately contributed to her wealth but not graces, perhaps those using the system (gypsies? of what origins?) didn't possess the monetary or literary capacity to get them published.  Did it come from Hechtel? Really? Or did he just take the information and use it for his own purposes? Nothing is new under the sun, as they say.

Edited October 29, 2024 by JoyousGirl

[akiva]

13 hours ago, Misterei said:

So is it possible that reading houses as per Game of Hope / Lenormand *is* a traditional reading method and has been around longer than we think?

 

Disambiguation: I mean reading houses where the houses correspond with the card of that number. I.e. H1 corresponds to Rider and shows what is coming to you. H18 corresponds to Dog and shows friendships and loyalties. H34 shows finances, etc.

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

I guess to refine my question: is the idea of using Lenormand houses as traditional as the Master Method houses [which has been around at least since 1875]?

Ignore my weird quoting 😅

 

I was going to answer yes, but with the disambiguation it's a no. I believe that using the houses as H1 = Rider is 'new'. It was probably inspired by the master method, but it's definitely not traditional, beyond it's use in modern reading styles. Using the houses like that doesn't quite fit with the unnecessary complexity that older methods have. 

 

Whoever invented the modern house system probably looked at the master method and thought: "lenormand has 36 cards too, but I cba to learn 36 seperate houses. So I'll just make them the cards already in the deck, and I'll also leave out the 144 different suit combos I need to learn too" and I don't blame them. Who has time to learn that?! 🤣

 

Though I advocate using the MM houses over the modern ones, they're much more telling. And it fixes the work issue, at least for GT's, as there's a house for projects and enterprise. 

[Misterei]

10 hours ago, akiva said:

... I believe that using the houses as H1 = Rider is 'new'. It was probably inspired by the master method, but it's definitely not traditional, beyond it's use in modern reading styles. Using the houses like that doesn't quite fit with the unnecessary complexity that older methods have. 

I wish I knew who and when using the LN houses started amongst the modern readers. It's out there but where did it start?

10 hours ago, akiva said:

Whoever invented the modern house system probably looked at the master method and thought: "lenormand has 36 cards too, but I cba to learn 36 seperate houses. So I'll just make them the cards already in the deck, and I'll also leave out the 144 different suit combos I need to learn too" and I don't blame them. Who has time to learn that?! 🤣

Makes sense. I didn't want to bother pulling out a Master Method house diagram for every GT. But on the other hand, I *do* feel a connection to the original Game of Hope when I lay out the 36 cards as a template for GT.

 

It works similar to astrological charts. You have the 12 signs in the *natural zodiac* where Aries is on H1, Taurus on H2 etc. And we astrologers compare the natural zodiac to the client's natal chart. Using the LN houses allows for techniques like parivartana yoga. I.e. getting Dog in H23 and Mice in H18. Or getting Dog in H18 [in domicile]. I like to apply these astrology techniques.

 

10 hours ago, akiva said:

Though I advocate using the MM houses over the modern ones, they're much more telling. And it fixes the work issue, at least for GT's, as there's a house for projects and enterprise. 

Ah yes. The work issue in LN. I've come round to just using Anchor [H33] for work / career.

 

Anyway, I guess I must concede that the LN houses is indeed a modern method. My feelings of connection to the original GOH are simply my personal take on this method. But I'll take that personal connection. I love the kinship between of games of chance and divination. Being able to read that way -- even if not traditional -- feels linked to something primal and ancient.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Misterei

[gregory]

Lenormand houses were popularized by Iris Treppner in the early 2000s. She said she found them on a German forum.

[joy]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

Lenormand houses were popularized by Iris Treppner in the early 2000s. She said she found them on a German forum.

The German speaking community is using houses since quite some time and still do.

[joy]

16 hours ago, Misterei said:

I wish I knew who and when using the LN houses started amongst the modern readers. It's out there but where did it start?

Not sure what you mean with 'modern' readers. The German-speaking community is using houses since a very long time. However, they of course do not read all the houses, just the important ones. They usually either use the Houses or use MOD (method of direction) but do not mix both.

[akiva]

18 hours ago, Misterei said:

I wish I knew who and when using the LN houses started amongst the modern readers. It's out there but where did it start?

So do I! I'm also curious if there's older literature in other languages around the time of the PL sheet. I've tried to look for old German books but nothing came up. I might try to find some German forums and see if there's anything there.

 

 

18 hours ago, Misterei said:

Makes sense. I didn't want to bother pulling out a Master Method house diagram for every GT. But on the other hand, I *do* feel a connection to the original Game of Hope when I lay out the 36 cards as a template for GT.

It might be worth experimenting between the two? Especially if you have that historical connection.

 

What I got from using the MM houses (and method) are that they're good for general reads, and kind of switch up the reading style a bit. It's almost like it becomes house first - card second. Whereas using the modern house system it's card first - house second. Does that make sense?

 

18 hours ago, Misterei said:

Anyway, I guess I must concede that the LN houses is indeed a modern method. My feelings of connection to the original GOH are simply my personal take on this method. But I'll take that personal connection. I love the kinship between of games of chance and divination. Being able to read that way -- even if not traditional -- feels linked to something primal and ancient.

I totally get where you're coming from. I get the same primal feeling from geomancy. Generating the figures from dice is so much fun, and makes me feel like an ancient bone caster 😁

[Misterei]

20 hours ago, gregory said:

Lenormand houses were popularized by Iris Treppner in the early 2000s. She said she found them on a German forum.

Ah! Thanks. I've read some Treppner here and there but not her material on houses.

17 hours ago, joy said:

The German speaking community is using houses since quite some time and still do.

Interesting! Thanks 🙏 And it makes sense as Game of Hope is German. One might guess that the German readers would be the ones to start with this style of reading GOH houses.

4 hours ago, joy said:

Not sure what you mean with 'modern' readers. The German-speaking community is using houses since a very long time. However, they of course do not read all the houses, just the important ones. They usually either use the Houses or use MOD (method of direction) but do not mix both.

Oh! Then perhaps I am only discovering with trial and error what they've known for years vis a vis reading only the houses important to my topic 🤣

The book that most got me started in this direction is the Odette Mazza book about the German Method. The book itself has 2023 publication date, but she seems to have been writing it much earlier than that. Also, she mentions learning techniques from her Grandmother.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Misterei

[gregory]

The Treppner course is here  - you could look through it.

 

https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/forum/193-treppner-course/

[Misterei]

6 hours ago, akiva said:

So do I! I'm also curious if there's older literature in other languages around the time of the PL sheet. I've tried to look for old German books but nothing came up. I might try to find some German forums and see if there's anything there.

LOL well I'm guessing Odette Mazza's grandma was possibly using the GOH houses some time ago.

6 hours ago, akiva said:

What I got from using the MM houses (and method) are that they're good for general reads, and kind of switch up the reading style a bit. It's almost like it becomes house first - card second. Whereas using the modern house system it's card first - house second. Does that make sense?

Hmm. As per Mazza reading the house + card is like building a combo. House + Card in house. So she puts the house first when she uses houses.

Now I put house first as per Mazza. I tried it the other way when I was learning from YouTubes. Looking for the card and then reading the house the card occupied, but this ended-up confusing me. I definitely prefer Mazza method to read house + card.

6 hours ago, akiva said:

I totally get where you're coming from. I get the same primal feeling from geomancy. Generating the figures from dice is so much fun, and makes me feel like an ancient bone caster 😁

Exactly. And if you believe in reincarnation, maybe you were an ancient bone caster 🙂

[Misterei]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

The Treppner course is here  - you could look through it.

https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/forum/193-treppner-course/

I looked through it some time ago and just re-checked. In Part 5 she mentions reading the houses briefly. From skimming parts 6-7 it appears she only reads the houses as an auxilliary method. I'm finding my sweet spot is using the houses as a primary method. The Mazza book goes into more detail about method of houses, so that's been my inspiration.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Misterei

[joy]

7 hours ago, Misterei said:

 

Interesting! Thanks 🙏 And it makes sense as Game of Hope is German. One might guess that the German readers would be the ones to start with this style of reading GOH houses.

Oh! Then perhaps I am only discovering with trial and error what they've known for years vis a vis reading only the houses important to my topic 🤣

 

The Card Geek also speaks and teaches about the houses.

[Misterei]

41 minutes ago, joy said:

The Card Geek also speaks and teaches about the houses.

I've seen her before but not the house videos. I searched just now and found her video about 9 cards with houses. I prefer full GT so I'll watch the 9-card video then search if she has anything on GT. Thanks!

[Sar]

This is perhaps on the sideline, but how far back in time do we talk about when er say traditional and modern?

Would a post WW1 technique developed in the thirties be old enough to calling it traditional if an entire generation of readers use it and get results with said technique or is it still "modern"? 

[katrinka]

As many here are aware, houses were lifted from a playing card technique called the Master Method. I didn't see it used with Lenormand prior to the Treppner course. I wrote to Iris and asked about it - she replied that she got it from a german forum, lol.

Since "traditional" refers to something that is handed down from age to age, usually orally, I wouldn't say that houses are traditional in the strictest sense of the word. Acceptable in moderation, yes, but recent as far as we know.

[Scandinavianhermit]

A rather superficial Swedish book about divination published in 1979 claimed that Lenormand herself had used a 36 card spread identical to the one shown in French above in @Misterei's original post. The author seem to have been under the impression, that the Game of Hope-derived deck now known as Petit Lenormand was used by Lenormand herself. So the myth about a House reading of Petit Lenormand was in circulation before the time a book was published in 1979. 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

I guess my cut-off is 1950s. There was this huge cultural shift in the 1960s with Jungian psychology and the Beatles with Ravi Shankar and whatnot which affected cartomancy, astrology, etc.

Yes. But the Lenormand method seems to have survived that untainted. So much so that older cartomancy techniques are sometimes described as "reading it like Lenormand" even though the opposite may be true.
 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

OK, but did the original poster on that German forum make it up? Or did she learn it from her grandmother or auntie?

Iris had no idea. But since there doesn't seem to be any prior mention of it, a good working hypothesis is that it's not old at all.

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

LOL the other fascinating part of Fortune Telling history. The folklore. The fakelore. Which is which?

That's the end result of NOT approaching it like a folklorist or historian. Tons of hooey and potted history. Books for the credulous. So disreputable that very few academics will touch this stuff. So there's an endless loop of BS.

Edited January 18 by katrinka

[katrinka]

On 10/30/2024 at 4:59 PM, Misterei said:

Hmm. As per Mazza reading the house + card is like building a combo. House + Card in house. So she puts the house first when she uses houses.

Now I put house first as per Mazza. I tried it the other way when I was learning from YouTubes. Looking for the card and then reading the house the card occupied, but this ended-up confusing me. I definitely prefer Mazza method to read house + card.

 

"Mazza method"? Lol.

To quote Andy: "With both the Game of Hope and Master Method, the chamber is the dominant partner.

German sources often go further and liken chambers to an A – B pair. Thus, the chamber becomes card A and the occupying card is B. On that, I disagree. Chambers are not the same as narration and specification.

"...Each chamber belongs to a card. The card occupying the room is the guest of the owner. Consequently, if the Birds have entered the Renard’s den then the Renard is the host… will Renard have pigeon pie?

 

"...As each chamber has an owner, we must consider their own placement. So, keeping with the Birds, if the Renard falls in the Coffin’s, well, not even Renard can escape the casket. Thus the Renard has no agency."

I'd also like to note here that the Master Method was first documented in Etrennes nouvelles de l’horoscope de l’homme et de la femme, published in 1788. These associations were later attributed to Mlle Le Normand in the 1875 L’Oracle Parfait.

 

But it's pointless to obsess over what's traditional when we have no concrete way of knowing. Even if you learned at your grandma's knee, that doesn't tell you about other peoples' grandmas. Rather, the litmus test is whether it's logical. Andy's explanation of Birds and Fox above is a good example.

Edited January 18 by katrinka

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

I guess my cut-off is 1950s. There was this huge cultural shift in the 1960s with Jungian psychology and the Beatles with Ravi Shankar and whatnot which affected cartomancy, astrology, etc. Whereas pre-1950s people seemed to be using older *tradition* methods. Not trendy or psychologized.

 

Just want to mention that both Erna Droesbeke and Mary Marco published books on Lenormand in the 1980's, IIRC. There weren't any prior to that. And both are untainted by the things you mention. (And even the Beatles got back to good standard rock & roll after the Maharishi turned out to be full of it.)

[Misterei]

On 1/18/2025 at 5:04 AM, katrinka said:

"Mazza method"? Lol.

Please don't read too much into this. It was the Mazza book that *clicked* for me. Not trying to elevate anything beyond the author's name and the fact that her teaching method *clicked* for me as a student.

Edited January 19 by Misterei

[joy]

Hello Everyone,

This thread went really off-topic and let's get back to the original topic of Lenormand house methods. We have edited and deleted some posts to get it back to the discussion.