The Man and Woman

[Tom]

Some decks have extra man and woman cards, I have read that some readers leave the extras in the deck in order to address same sex relationships.  Do you always use just one man and one women in your decks or do you use extras as well.  I also read that the Rider card 1 can represent a partner, more  comonly a male, although I have seem decks that have a female rider.  What other cards in the deck can be used for expressing a same sex relationship?

 

I noticed in the Kipper decks there is at least an extra male card to represent an older man.  How close in Kipper to Lenormand?  I know that they share some common cards.  I haven’t really studied Kipper cards, although I own one Kipper deck.  I certainly don’t want to confuse myself at this point.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Tom

[DanielJUK]

This is a dilemma with the decks. So before, there wasn't extra cards and so people used other cards to represent partners. In the last ten years, we have a lot more diversity and options and so the extra cards make it much easier.

 

If I am reading for someone, I always ask about this carefully (some people don't identify as male or female). In my friends circle, I am much more likely to read for a LGBT+ person and it's always worth asking what card to represent them and what card to represent a lover / interest / partner(s) / spouse. You can use any card to signify someone, or you can just use two same sex cards. It's worth exploring it though, especially for LGBT love type readings. Some people use a significator for people and do the reading around it but I don't want to lose the cards in the reading, so I just want to know who I am looking out for in the reading.

 

There are some great old threads about this on the forum, worth reading....

 

 

 

 

[joy]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

Some decks have extra man and woman cards, I have read that some readers leave the extras in the deck in order to address same sex relationships.  Do you always use just one man and one women in your decks or do you use extras as well.  I also read that the Rider card 1 can represent a partner, more  comonly a male, although I have seem decks that have a female rider.  What other cards in the deck can be used for expressing a same sex relationship?

I would not leave the extras in deck, otherwise you end up with 2 male and 2 female. If I read for a same sex relationship then I just have either 2 male or 2 female in the deck. If there are extra cards. If there are no extra cards, I can decide who is who before I start.

[Misterei]

57 minutes ago, joy said:

I would not leave the extras in deck, otherwise you end up with 2 male and 2 female. If I read for a same sex relationship then I just have either 2 male or 2 female in the deck. If there are extra cards. If there are no extra cards, I can decide who is who before I start.

I agree.  I like to keep the deck at 36 cards. I haven't done many professional LN readings [and only small ones in conjunction w/ Tarot] but if I were going to read for a gay man who wants a relationship reading, I would likely substitute the extra man card for the woman card. His question is romantic, so the cards should show 2 man cards for romantic interest.

 

OTOH I did a reading for a lesbian woman which was general in nature [not romantic] so i left the deck alone. Man card appeared and it was her brother. Turns-out she was concerned about her brother so it was good to have the man card in the deck instead of 2 woman cards. The reading went to the heart of her concern for her bother even tho it was a general reading. In this case I would have read Snake as a female romantic interest for a lesbian. Likewise in a general reading I might use Rider as the male romantic card for a gay man. I would only substitute the extra man or woman card if the reading is specifically romantic.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Misterei

[Krystalida]

I use also if for a Man the 2nd Man card and for Women the same, if the deck doesn't include extra cards I ask the querent which of the genders they prefer and I just take the one left Man or Woman for the other partner. The Rider, Dog or other people cards I take them as they come I don't mind the genders because to me its about energy in the cards, love, commitment, sex, deceit etc are come the same way and feel the same to everybody no matter.

[katrinka]

12 hours ago, Krystalida said:

if the deck doesn't include extra cards I ask the querent which of the genders they prefer

Extra cards or not, it's always best to ask if you don't know the sitter well. If you're cishet, familiarize yourself with terms like genderqueer, genderfluid, bigender, etc.

It can be hard being LGBTQ+, at least in the USA. The current social and political climate is a nightmare. Especially for people in flyover states, a lot of them are surrounded by bigots and it's not unusual for them to stay closeted.

Imagine having to hide who you are all the time. NOBODY SHOULD HAVE TO DO THAT.

Asking your sitter what they prefer is a kind of assurance that you respect and accept them. Letting the sitter decide can help create a safe space for LBGTQ+ people.

Please take a moment to read this.

 Your reading table should be like a little Pink Pony Club. A place where it's OK for people to be who they are. 😊
 

 

Edited March 11 by katrinka

[gregory]

Read ? Don't you mean watch. Annoyingly my deafness and the lack of subs don't help much here.... (Or was that a wrong link ?)

[Krystalida]

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

Extra cards or not, it's always best to ask if you don't know the sitter well. If you're cishet, familiarize yourself with terms like genderqueer, genderfluid, bigender, etc.

It can be hard being LGBTQ+, at least in the USA. The current social and political climate is a nightmare. Especially for people in flyover states, a lot of them are surrounded by bigots and it's not unusual for them to stay closeted.

Imagine having to hide who you are all the time. NOBODY SHOULD HAVE TO DO THAT.

Asking your sitter what they prefer is a kind of assurance that you respect and accept them. Letting the sitter decide can help create a safe space for LBGTQ+ people.

Please take a moment to read this. 

 Your reading table should be like a little Pink Pony Club. A place where it's OK for people to be who they are. 😊
 

 

I dont have an issue with the identification of people 😇 I am in the LGBTQ+ movement in Cyprus and believe me the situation here is much harder!! people are coming slow;y slowly out of their shells and others still fight to accept the existence of being different.

 

But I guess because of that and the few population that we are is not very common to have sitters from the community. For the ones I have some times I already know them so Ive never actually wondered to ask but yes I understand that in time this question should be essential.

 

 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, gregory said:

Read ? Don't you mean watch. Annoyingly my deafness and the lack of subs don't help much here.... (Or was that a wrong link ?)

Oops, my bad, it was the wrong link. Fixed it.
Click the underlined "this."
Or just go here: https://www.out.com/gay-music/chappell-roan-pink-pony-club-song-meaning-history-explained
 

3 hours ago, Krystalida said:

I dont have an issue with the identification of people 😇 I am in the LGBTQ+ movement in Cyprus and believe me the situation here is much harder!! people are coming slow;y slowly out of their shells and others still fight to accept the existence of being different.

 

But I guess because of that and the few population that we are is not very common to have sitters from the community. For the ones I have some times I already know them so Ive never actually wondered to ask but yes I understand that in time this question should be essential.

Excellent.
We've got a pretty good bunch of people here as far as these issues go, but I had to put that out there. I've seen some not-good things on other sites. Some readers use the extra Man and Woman cards and think their job is done, they're being inclusive or accepting or whatever. But no, we need to make an actual effort.

There's issues with the extra cards anyway. Andy said it best in the Significator thread that Daniel linked:
"How many of these extra Gentlemen and Lady cards reverse the suits and numbers?  What do we do for bisexual or pansexual Querents? And do Queer people have no members of the opposite gender in their lives?"

IMHO it's best to stick with the original 36 and just ask if we don't know.

Edited March 11 by katrinka

[gregory]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Oops, my bad, it was the wrong link. Fixed it.
Click the underlined "this."
Or just go here: https://www.out.com/gay-music/chappell-roan-pink-pony-club-song-meaning-history-explained

 

Thanks 

 

I've found (admittedly in Tarot rather than LN) most people of every persuasion are quite happy to take the images in cards as generic. As in - I have often read for straight cis women with the Gay Tarot and none has batted an eyelash.

[katrinka]

7 minutes ago, gregory said:

I've found (admittedly in Tarot rather than LN) most people of every persuasion are quite happy to take the images in cards as generic. As in - I have often read for straight cis women with the Gay Tarot and none has batted an eyelash.

Yes, most sitters figure that the reader knows what they're doing and belongs in the driver's seat.
But it's good to ASK, regardless. It's a way of saying "I don't decide who you are. You do."