Deck appearing in the TV series "War & Peace" (2016, BBC)

[Hel]

Hi,

 

I recently watch the TV Series "War & Peace" (2016) - a very faithful adaptation from Tolstoy

masterwork.

 

In the last episode, one of the hero Pierre Bezhukov is consulting cards.

 

Can someone help me identifying the exact deck here ?

 

Thanks,

 

N. Hel

 

 

 

[gregory]

It looks a bit like a German one from the early 19th century - and I found that possibility on a Russian site, which sort of ties in to War and Peace. Not necessarily tarot.

Edited June 5, 2025 by gregory

[Hel]

22 minutes ago, gregory said:

It looks a bit like a German one from the early 19th century - and I found that possibility on a Russian site, which sort of ties in to War and Peace. Not necessarily tarot.

Thanks Gragory !

 

I came to the same conclusion even if I am not absolutely sure...

 

Indeed some german deck of cards at the end of the XVIIIth/ beginning if the XIXth ,  look a lot like the one featured in BBC War & Peace - for instance this one :

 

"Russisches Tiertatrock" by Platnick that can be found for instance in

the german online shop baroctanz-shop.

 

Thanks again for your helpful answer !

[gregory]

The Russian Tiertarock has big borders for the majors, and all the courts bear suit symbols - the pips are playing card style. Same goes for the Danish one. So - no. I think it's most likely from a fortune telling deck - possibly even a Lenormand-type. Can you post links to your other images as you haven't enough posts to put them all up here !

[Hel]

14 minutes ago, gregory said:

The Russian Tiertarock has big borders for the majors, and all the courts bear suit symbols - the pips are playing card style. Same goes for the Danish one. So - no. I think it's most likely from a fortune telling deck - possibly even a Lenormand-type. Can you post links to your other images as you haven't enough posts to put them all up here !

 

Yes Gregory, here are the links :

 

https://postimg.cc/gnv4yfZw

 

https://postimg.cc/DmqbH3Pn

 

https://postimg.cc/WdVThxBp/b259dbae

 

https://i.postimg.cc/BQwyn93M/Pierre-Card-5.jpg

 

Thanks !

[gregory]

The suits almost seem to be leaves....

[Hel]

2 minutes ago, gregory said:

The suits almost seem to be leaves....

Yes, indeed... I wonder if they bought an existing deck

or if their prop. department designed their own cards from archives...

A striking feature of this BBC 2016 adaptation is the care they took in

crafting clothes , sets  and shooting in real locations (e.g. Catherine palace)  

[gregory]

Someone who knows her stuff says it will be a German playing card deck - because, as I suggested, the leaves suit.

[geoxena]

I would imagine that the deck was made by their props department, which is usually the case in films and TV.  But I must say that was a particularly good adaptation.  I loved everything about the 2016 production, especially the acting.  Paul Dano was wonderful in it. 

[Hel]

2 minutes ago, geoxena said:

I would imagine that the deck was made by their props department, which is usually the case in films and TV.  But I must say that was a particularly good adaptation.  I loved everything about the 2016 production, especially the acting.  Paul Dano was wonderful in it. 

Wholeheartedly agreed ! The attention to details, respect of the original material, the actors, score, are really impressive...

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

The suits almost seem to be leaves....

That's definitely a Leaves suit. It's a playing card deck, a germanic one.
Whether it was also designed for fortunetelling is something I couldn't tell you. Old german decks often have scenes on them, but they're usually hunting scenes, or something else typically german. I've never seen any with a pyramid. I suppose it could be a themed deck. But what theme would include a pyramid, an eagle, and what appears to be a Roman soldier?

 

11 minutes ago, gregory said:

Someone who knows her stuff says it will be a German playing card deck - because, as I suggested, the leaves suit.

Yes. German or at least germanic - possibly Swiss.
 

11 minutes ago, geoxena said:

I would imagine that the deck was made by their props department, which is usually the case in films and TV.  But I must say that was a particularly good adaptation.

As a rule, yes. And it's a little too good: it looks like an authentic woodcut deck. 

When you buy modern TdM style decks that are not reproductions, they just can't quite nail that style. Ian Cumpstey's decks, for instance - I love his work, but it's just too clean. You can tell right away that it's contemporary. Same with Jodorowsky and others.

This one has that ring of authenticity, warts-and-all vintage look. I suppose there's a slim chance that there could be some AI program capable of doing a passable job (but that's doubtful), or they could have hired an artist to actually design and carve the deck, but wouldn't it be much simpler and cost effective to simply reproduce an old deck? 

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, Hel said:

 

Yes Gregory, here are the links :

 

https://postimg.cc/gnv4yfZw

 

https://postimg.cc/DmqbH3Pn

 

https://postimg.cc/WdVThxBp/b259dbae

 

https://i.postimg.cc/BQwyn93M/Pierre-Card-5.jpg

 

Thanks !

Fixed.
(The final link is just a screencap of an actor, no card faces visible.)

 

 

[Hel]

5 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Fixed.
(The final link is just a screencap of an actor, no card faces visible.)

 

 

Thanks Katrinka ! Regarding the 5th image I tried to capture the back of the cards but the resolution was too low and since it's a screenshot the result is blurry....

[geoxena]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

wouldn't it be much simpler and cost effective to simply reproduce an old deck? 

 

The BBC does re-use some costumes and props from previous productions, and will buy old historic and vintage pieces, but they also have a big budget.  In BTS videos, for example, they've shown how artists they've hired will handwrite in the old style with quill pens for when a character is writing a letter.  If the scene in which the tarot deck appears only shows a few cards from the stack, the props department need only to recreate the fronts of those few cards, not the whole deck.

 

Take Poldark, for instance (the 2015-2019 remake).  The story takes place in the 1780s and there are a lot of scenes that show Aunt Agatha reading her tarot cards, but she never has more than eight or so shown face up.  The rest are turned over or in a stack. Here's a snippet of a scene in which Aunt Agatha makes a prediction while reading her tarot cards (from timecode 0:36 to 1:03).  There's another shot in the video that shows her from a different episode with several stacks of cards in front of her.  Only a few cards are shown:

https://www.pbs.org/video/aunt-agatha-b97mih/

 

So it's totally possible that the props department made them by copying a historic deck (which could become damaged from shooting a scene again and again).

 

 

Edited June 5, 2025 by geoxena

[Hel]

Any thought about this specific deck : https://rinascimentoitalianartenglish.wordpress.com/marseille-tarot-of-hes-1750/ ?

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, geoxena said:

The story takes place in the 1780s and there are a lot of scenes that show Aunt Agatha reading her tarot cards, but she never has more than eight or so shown face up. 

She's fabulous!
And yes. I don't think I've ever seen a big tableau type spread on film. They always show just enough cards to get the point across.
 

1 hour ago, geoxena said:

 

So it's totally possible that the props department made them by copying a historic deck (which could become damaged from shooting a scene again and again).

Exactly. And I don't even let clients shuffle my cheap decks. A lot of people are just too ham fisted. No way they'd use an actual antique deck for something like that!
Very old decks tend to have plain backs and a lot of discoloration anyway. But the original antique deck would have been new in the Napoleonic era, obviously. So I think it's definitely a reproduction, with patterned backs added for visual interest or whatever.

It's really too bad if it's only a few cards. I'd really like to have a copy of the whole deck.
 

34 minutes ago, Hel said:

Any thought about this specific deck

 

That's a Tarot de Marseille. See the 2 of Coins in the second photo? 

The deck in War and Peace is a playing card deck - not a Tarot - and it has german suits: Leaves, Bells, Acorns and Hearts. No coins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-suited_playing_cards

 

Edited June 5, 2025 by katrinka

[Hel]

15 minutes ago, katrinka said:

She's fabulous!
And yes. I don't think I've ever seen a big tableau type spread on film. They always show just enough cards to get the point across.
 

Exactly. And I don't even let clients shuffle my cheap decks. A lot of people are just too ham fisted. No way they'd use an actual antique deck for something like that!
Very old decks tend to have plain backs (these don't) and a lot of discoloration anyway. But the original antique deck would have been new in the Napoleonic era, obviously. So I think it's definitely a reproduction, with patterned backs added for visual interest or whatever.

It's really too bad if it's only a few cards. I'd really like to have a copy of the whole deck.
 

 

That's a Tarot de Marseille. See the 2 of Coins in the second photo? 

The deck in War and Peace is a playing card deck - not a Tarot - and it has german suits: Leaves, Bells, Acorns and Hearts. No coins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-suited_playing_cards

 

Thanks for this important precision ! The fact they used a playing card deck makes sense : at the beginning of the story Pierre spends a lot of time with Kuragin and Dolokhov. Those two are partying, gambling  and  playing Faro a lot. It  wouldn't be surprising that Pierre has kept a deck from his younger years.

[Laura Borealis]

Here's a similar one but modern, a 36 card deck from Piatnik in the Salzburger pattern. 

 

The knave is dressed differently (actually pretty similar! but it's not the same drawing obv) but the War and Peace one might also be playing a flute?

Instead of Queens and Jacks there's Ober  and Unter Knaves (Over and Under) in these decks. The position of the leaf means this is the Unter one.

 

There are more animals on the Deuce* but the eagle is still there. 

 

I can't count how many leaves are on the card with the Roman soldier vignette.

My deck doesn't have soldiers so I can't tell which one corresponds, but it might be one of these.

 

*For some reason the Deuce or Daus is usually called an Ace. I don't know either. 

 

Edited June 5, 2025 by Laura Borealis

[Laura Borealis]

Here's the box if you're interested. I got this from Tarobear's Lair, but they don't seem to have this one anymore.

Edit to add: if you poke around on the World of Playing Cards site there are lots of examples of German-suited decks  https://www.wopc.co.uk/

 

Edited June 6, 2025 by Laura Borealis

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Laura Borealis said:

Instead of Queens and Jacks there's Ober  and Unter Knaves (Over and Under) in these decks. The position of the leaf means this is the Unter one.

Ah yes. The War and Peace Knave is an Unter Knave. Good Catch!
And the Aces are dropped, the deuce takes its place. From Wikipedia:

"German suited decks tend to have fewer cards than either the French, Spanish, or Italian sets. The typical northern German pack has 32 cards ranking from 7, 8, 9, 10, Under Knave (Unter = Untermann i.e. subordinate, underling or sergeant), Over Knave (Ober = Obermann i.e. superordinate, overlord or officer), King (König), and "Ace" (Ass) for a total of 32 cards. The "Ace" is really a Deuce (Daus) as indicated by its two suit symbols. Today, however, it is rarely if ever called a Daus. Southern patterns have 36 cards by including the 6. In South Tyrol, 40-card, German-suited packs are still produced so that Italian games can be played with them."

Here's Das Spiel der Hoffnung. It's interesting because you get a side-by-side comparison of the german cards and their french suited equivalents:

 

Here's a 19th century german suited deck, very pretty:

http://www.endebrock.de/coll/pages/d1248.html

I actually have a copy from LS. I need to get it out of the drawer, it's been too long!

https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/topic/4232-unboxings-and-first-impressions/page/21/#comment-213372

 

Edited June 6, 2025 by katrinka

[Hel]

7 hours ago, Laura Borealis said:

Here's the box if you're interested. I got this from Tarobear's Lair, but they don't seem to have this one anymore.

Edit to add: if you poke around on the World of Playing Cards site there are lots of examples of German-suited decks  https://www.wopc.co.uk/

 

Thank a a lot Laura ! 36 (or 32) cards deck were indeed the more commonly in the early 19th century Russia... And they were imported (source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_playing_cards) hence the use of german one. I'll take a look at the  World of Playing Cards site. Thanks again !

[Hel]

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

Ah yes. The War and Peace Knave is an Unter Knave. Good Catch!
And the Aces are dropped, the deuce takes its place. From Wikipedia:

"German suited decks tend to have fewer cards than either the French, Spanish, or Italian sets. The typical northern German pack has 32 cards ranking from 7, 8, 9, 10, Under Knave (Unter = Untermann i.e. subordinate, underling or sergeant), Over Knave (Ober = Obermann i.e. superordinate, overlord or officer), King (König), and "Ace" (Ass) for a total of 32 cards. The "Ace" is really a Deuce (Daus) as indicated by its two suit symbols. Today, however, it is rarely if ever called a Daus. Southern patterns have 36 cards by including the 6. In South Tyrol, 40-card, German-suited packs are still produced so that Italian games can be played with them."

Here's Das Spiel der Hoffnung. It's interesting because you get a side-by-side comparison of the german cards and their french suited equivalents:

 

Here's a 19th century german suited deck, very pretty:

http://www.endebrock.de/coll/pages/d1248.html

I actually have a copy from LS. I need to get it out of the drawer, it's been too long!

https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/topic/4232-unboxings-and-first-impressions/page/21/#comment-213372

 

Thanks Katrinka ! Beautiful decks and nice comparison between german and french styles...