Henrí, Burdel, Joerger, Laurent, Feautrier, Gassman, Payden, Rochias, Rolichon, Vachier, Chosson - WHICH ONE TO GET?????

[AtelierCarousel]

Hi all,

 

I'm ready to venture into TdM and have seen someone online selling all these TdM decks. 

 

I've tried to check out individual cards to see which version I like best, but I had to give up. They are all beautiful and interesting. 

 

I was tempted to just get the replica of the olderst, but that one has rough printing quality, wich is beautifully preserved in the modern copy of course, but the younger ones are possibly easier to read with because they are a. bit clearer, also the coloring of the clothes and objects is better, which is important for the interpretation, as I have already learned in my beginner studies. Tough choice.

 

Which one would you recommend getting? I just don't know enough yet to decide. Whuaaaaaa. 

 

François Chosson 1672

Philippe Vachier 1639

Pierre Cheminade 1742

Claude Rochias 1754

Pierr Madenié 1709

Jean Pierre Payden 1713

Jaques Burgel 1813

François Gassman 1840

Joseph Feautrier 1762

Jean Pierre Lauren 1735

Jacob Joerger 1801

Claude Burdel 1751

François Herí 1718

 

And I guess I don't have to get just these from this particular vendor. I'm not even sure if I should get a regular TdM or a Swiss JJ one. Whuaaaaaaaa. 

 

Help, I'm lost in a sea of French Tarot cards. 

 

Thank you for any input. 

 

[Raggydoll]

This is just a personal preference, but for me it helps if there are expressive and well drawn facial features because it aids in my readings (I take into consideration what a character is looking at or turning away from). I particularly like the Pierre Madenie for that. The Burdel is similar as well. 

[gregory]

Of those I'd run with Madenie, too. But - tastes differ.... you might hate it.

[Ferrea]

Check Youtube for flip-throughs. Maybe you have a particular preference regarding facial features or colourways. I'd go with what you find visually pleasing. 

[dancing_moon]

If this is your first TdM, I'd go with a regular French one, not Swiss, and make it the oldest that speaks to you. Chosson is lovely, and I second (third?) Madenie. But you're right - it is a tough choice 🫣

[Pio2001]

On 12/5/2025 at 5:53 PM, AtelierCarousel said:

Hi all,

 

I'm ready to venture into TdM and have seen someone online selling all these TdM decks. 

 

I've tried to check out individual cards to see which version I like best, but I had to give up. They are all beautiful and interesting. 

 

I was tempted to just get the replica of the olderst, but that one has rough printing quality, wich is beautifully preserved in the modern copy of course, but the younger ones are possibly easier to read with because they are a. bit clearer, also the coloring of the clothes and objects is better, which is important for the interpretation, as I have already learned in my beginner studies. Tough choice.

 

Which one would you recommend getting? I just don't know enough yet to decide. Whuaaaaaa. 

 

François Chosson 1672

Philippe Vachier 1639

Pierre Cheminade 1742

Claude Rochias 1754

Pierr Madenié 1709

Jean Pierre Payden 1713

Jaques Burgel 1813

François Gassman 1840

Joseph Feautrier 1762

Jean Pierre Lauren 1735

Jacob Joerger 1801

Claude Burdel 1751

François Herí 1718

 

And I guess I don't have to get just these from this particular vendor. I'm not even sure if I should get a regular TdM or a Swiss JJ one. Whuaaaaaaaa. 

 

Help, I'm lost in a sea of French Tarot cards. 

 

Thank you for any input. 

 

Hello, 

Choosing a tarot de Marseille is tough. I've got 13 different ones and none of them is perfect in my eyes. There is always a little something that seems odd.

 

The Pierre Madenié 1709 is indeed a major deck in tarot history. It is the grandfather of modern Tarot de Marseille, that gave birth to the Nicolas Conver deck (the father), that in turn gave birth to many others.

The faces drawings are among the finest, but it is an old deck with worn cards, and the "artist" doing the colours couldn't have cared less. There are several modern reproductions. The last one by Yves Reynaud 2022 is too light (compare the first and third pictures here (scroll down to october 21) : https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/topic/17583-tdm-11-different-page-of-coins/#findComment-301381)

There are also redrawn versions of the Madenié, but none of them managed to convince me. Modern artists don't have the skills of Pierre Madenié.  

 

The François Gassman 1840 is one of my favourites. It is a great historical tarot for reading. I've got the 2020 version by Yves Reynaud. You can also see the page of coins in the above link.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2025 by Pio2001
typo + link not leading to the right message

[AtelierCarousel]

@Pio2001 Thank you so much for your information and the link to that incredible page! That is fantastic. Looking at the Oct 21 image right now. I see what you mean.

 

I read Fred Gettings "Tarot, how to read the future" as one of the first study resources to get into the TdM, and he talks a lot about the colors red and blue, indicating passive and active forces. Not sure how accurate he is, but that is the lens through which I look at the decks right now, and there are not many that have that red and blue coloring. Hmm. The Gassman has it. It really is wonderful. 

 

I tried to write to Yves Reynaud about his decision to change a dark bluish green to a light yellow green in his Vachier 1639 recreation, but his website scripts are broken. Note even newletter subscription works, unfortunately. It seems that until I figure out that blue-green mystery, I can't move forward with what TdM to buy. 

 

Ah well, I splurged and got myself the large, silver edition of the Tabula Mundi, hihi. Now I also have to learn the Toth system *eyeroll*. 

 

Thanks a lot for this great resource page. I'm sure I will come back to it often. 

 

 

[gregory]

His email is on his website - I'll PM it to you.

[Pio2001]

On 12/23/2025 at 11:01 PM, AtelierCarousel said:

@Pio2001 Thank you so much for your information and the link to that incredible page! 

 

I'm happy that you find it useful.

 

In order to compare historical decks rather than modern ones, that page is a must : https://formation.kevinmeunier.com/tarots-anciens/

[AtelierCarousel]

15 hours ago, Pio2001 said:

 

I'm happy that you find it useful.

 

In order to compare historical decks rather than modern ones, that page is a must : https://formation.kevinmeunier.com/tarots-anciens/

SAY WHAAT? This is awesome! Thanks so much!

[gregory]

I forgot all about him - I have his Conver restoration.

[Scandinavianhermit]

Pablo Robledo's Tarot de Marsella and Ioav ben Dov's CBD Tarot de Marseille are both suitable for beginners. Unlike Grimaud's Ancient Tarot de Marseille, the colour schemes of the two former are less harsh than the one in the latter. Collecting all the historic variations sounds like something to do after some initial familiarisation with the tradition. 

[AtelierCarousel]

@Scandinavianhermit Thank you very much for these. I did learn now that color is not as much a reliable symbol as I hoped. Lots of TdM publishers apparently really didn't pay that much attention to it and picked whatever they had. So I Guess one can just pick one out of personal eastehtic preference. 

[AtelierCarousel]

Follow up on a quest to find "the best TdM"  - and a sidetracked investigation into color usage in the TdM, especially the appearance of blue (passive) and red (active), based on interpretations of Fred Gettings in his "Tarot, how to read the future" from 1983.

 

I wrote to Yves Reynaud from "Tarot de Marseille Héritage" and asked him about his recent Tarot de Vachier 1639. He had bought an original copy of the deck in order to reproduce it and showed "before and after" images on his site. The green he took looked like it replaced a really dark "midnight" blue, so I asked him about if he replaced a blue with a green and if so, why. He said (translated from French):

 

To answer your question, you should know that the original colors of antique cards tend to change over time.

Some colors hold up much better than others. Red and yellow, for example.

Green, on the other hand, has an irreversible tendency to oxidize when exposed to oxygen in the air over the years.

It darkens, and then can change color.

At worst, it can even become almost black...
I've already seen a Nicolas Conver deck from 1760 with black instead of green.

And other original tarot decks.

I acquired this Vachier tarot deck from 1639 at an auction in March 2023 in Paris.

For the sole purpose of reproducing it, as it is a unique, complete, and dated 1639 copy.
I was therefore able to examine the original cards with a magnifying glass.

This allows the original color to be revealed before the green oxidation appears in a few rare areas.

Furthermore, being familiar with this type of tarot (very similar to the J.P. Payen 1713 and Jean Payen 1743 tarot decks), I was already aware of the color codes used for each zone.

Except for Violet, which is quite specific to this Vachier tarot deck.

Therefore, I didn't replace a blue zone with a green one, but rather restored the tarot to its original colors.

This is always my goal: to restore, not to create.

I hope I have answered your legitimate questions and wish you happy holidays.

Sincerely,

Yves Reynaud
Heritage Marseille Tarot

 

Apart from this, I have dug around in other sources and from what I have learned, it seems that hte TdM colors of old decks are not reliably metaphorical, but often "what paint cans where in storage" at the printer" at the time, or maybe in this case, a color that maybe someone in Fred Gettings time might have seen as a blue, but what maybe just was a darkened green. But also, as Ms Reynaud pointed out, there are color codes for each zone. 

 

I've decided to take concepts like "blue marks passive body parts, red active ones" with a grain of salt. Luckily, there is enough symbolism to decipher in the TdM besides the color. 

 

I've written back to him to ask him about what he meant with "color codes for each zones". Just can't let this go. 

 

Still haven't found "my TdM". At least now I know it's going to be one from Yves Reynaud, for his scientifically accurate approach to all this. Only 11 to choose from now. Sigh. 

 

 

 

 

[dancing_moon]

Yves Reynaud is wonderful. I'd love to hear what he says about the "colir codes" too.

[AtelierCarousel]

43 minutes ago, dancing_moon said:

Yves Reynaud is wonderful. I'd love to hear what he says about the "colir codes" too.

I'll post his response here. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

7 hours ago, AtelierCarousel said:

Apart from this, I have dug around in other sources and from what I have learned, it seems that hte TdM colors of old decks are not reliably metaphorical, but often "what paint cans where in storage" at the printer" at the time, or maybe in this case, a color that maybe someone in Fred Gettings time might have seen as a blue, but what maybe just was a darkened green. But also, as Ms Reynaud pointed out, there are color codes for each zone. 

I wouldn't be much surprised if Mr. Gettings was influenced by the ideas and ideals of Marseille Tarot's grand old man, Paul Marteau. Marteau is well worth reading as a part of Marseille Tarot's history and as an important representative of a certain era in tarot history. His ideas on colourisation were, however, formed without awareness of the darkening process Mr. Reynaud and others are now well aware of. This is the reason why Kris Hadar, Jodorowsky, Joav ben Dov, Paulo Robledo, Mattio Ottolini and others are reintroducing green colour. It was often there in the past. 

 

Have you been able to read about Type A Marseille and Type B Marseille? The Lover, the Devil and the Moon, in particular, looks slightly different between the two types. There are also minor details in Besançon decks and Piedmontese decks which differ from one or both Marseille types, despite close similarities in other respects. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

Ben Dov's first name is transcribed 'Yoav' in English. Sorry for the confusion. The letter yod is transcribed as the letter J in Swedish, but as the letter Y in English, so I become confused when I attempt to think in three languages simultaneously. Not that my Hebrew is particularly good, anyway. 

[Pio2001]

The colours seem to have been quite the same on most type B Marseille, from Pierre Madenié to Conver v1.

Fun fact : the Holy Roman Empire black eagle on yellow background, that we can see in the coat of arms of the emperor and empress, changed color after the end of the empire in 1806.

 

The Conver v1 has been the model for most modern tarot de Marseille since Robert Falconnier wrote, in 1896 "le tarot édité à Marseille en 1760 par Nicolas Conver est celui qui se rapproche le plus du type traditionnel" (The tarot published in Marseille in 1760 by Nicolas Conver is the one that is closest to the traditionnal type). Mind that, for Robert Falconnier, the "traditional type" was created by egyptian magi, then studied by Plato in Greece etc. Nothing to do with the history of playing cards in Europe.  

In Kevin Meunier's page we can see 4 versions of the Conver deck : https://formation.kevinmeunier.com/tarots-anciens/

 

The first one must have been published around 1809, when Nicolas Conver started his business. Specialists consider that Conver took an old engraved plate from an unknown card maker, and replaced the original name with his, but left the original year 1760. Nicolas Conver was not yet born in 1760.

We can see a major change in colours with the Conver v4 deck, that is often refered to as "the reedition of the Conver deck by Camoin", probably from the late 19th century. This change came with the switch to industrial printing techniques. 

We can also see that the colours of the Ancien Tarot de Marseille by Grimaud (1930), with a lot of red and blue, are inspired by this Conver v4 deck.

I've noticed that the Conver v1 has a particularly light blue, and that's a colour widely used in modern Marseille. 

 

[AtelierCarousel]

Thank you @Pio2001.  

 

I got a reply from Mr Reynaud from Tarot-de-Marseille-heritage.com regarding color codes and patterns for the TdM (translated from French): 

 

"Regarding color codes, you should know that:
There is no general rule for the areas to be colored.

Many artists, past and present, disregard this and decide on their own color scheme.

That said, for the Vachier deck, I compared it with the Jean Payen 1743 and the JP Payen 1713 decks.

But I also had about 60 antique tarot decks available in photos, scans, or originals to help me make my decision.

Furthermore, the basic requirement is having an original deck (in this case, the Vachier) and a good 10x magnifying glass, as well as 600 DPI scans.

Therefore, it's difficult to give you a single reliable resource."

 

This is in reply to a question I had about if there is basically anything to rely on with TdM color symbolism. Like "standard" sections on cards that are "typically" filled with a particular color, etc.  I'm taking from my research so far that colors are not a reliable "fits all" metaphor.

 

I made this quick comparison below, mostly from the incredible image collection of Kevin Meunier. (Temperance is now not mixing water but colors) There were more decks, but left those out that generally matched one of these general colorizations. Order is left to right from older to newer.

 

 

Some learnings:

- Earlier decks: more similar in color, probably because of generally limited printing options back then, later decks: more creative freedom

- Earlier decks: more primary colors, Later decks: more non-primary colors and color mixes.

- Red is the most consistent color.

- Green and blue are used interchangeably

- Earlier decks: Red "marks" isolated elements on a card (arm, belt, shawl, rays, cross, staf etc), later deck: red marks many elements on a card, too many to maybe still be a central message. 

- Only one more or less reliable metaphor I can see here: a figure or the figure's clothing is divided in light & dark or opposite color areas, as a sign for opposite principles being active 

 

 

I could so EASILY spend the next 5 years in an ADHD-hyperfocused TdM color analysis rabbit hole. And I've still not chosen my first TdM deck, but at least now I know it's going to be one from before 1700. Paralysis through analysis. 

 

 

[Pio2001]

Thank you for the comparison. Very intersting. 

Some info about the dates :

The Dodal is from 1701 (1715 at the latest)

The Arnould edition Lequart is from around 1880

The Arnoult edition Grimaud was published in 1891

The Conver v4 is dated between 1890 and 1900 by Isabelle Nadolny

 

Actually, the "published 1809" only applies to the Conver v1.

[Scandinavianhermit]

On 1/8/2026 at 1:42 PM, Pio2001 said:

The first one must have been published around 1809, when Nicolas Conver started his business. Specialists consider that Conver took an old engraved plate from an unknown card maker, and replaced the original name with his, but left the original year 1760. Nicolas Conver was not yet born in 1760.

I wish to read more about this, but my French is bad. Do you have any suggestions? English, German, Danish or Norwegian would do. 

[gregory]

8 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I wish to read more about this, but my French is bad. Do you have any suggestions? English, German, Danish or Norwegian would do. 

 

If you use Chrome, it has a built in translator which translates the entire page.

[Pio2001]

16 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I wish to read more about this, but my French is bad. Do you have any suggestions? English, German, Danish or Norwegian would do. 

Unfortunately I don't have any resource in these languages, except the booklet in the Scarabeo version of the Tarot Grimaud 1890, where there are 5 little pages about it.

 

Most of my knowledge comes from the french books of Isabelle Nadolny Histoire du Tarot (History of the Tarot) and Histoires du Tarot (Stories of Tarot) https://www.isabelle-nadolny.com/historienne

The first one exist in French, Spanish and Brazilian. The second one in French only. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

13 minutes ago, Pio2001 said:

Unfortunately I don't have any resource in these languages, except the booklet in the Scarabeo version of the Tarot Grimaud 1890, where there are 5 little pages about it.

 

Most of my knowledge comes from the french books of Isabelle Nadolny Histoire du Tarot (History of the Tarot) and Histoires du Tarot (Stories of Tarot) https://www.isabelle-nadolny.com/historienne

The first one exist in French, Spanish and Brazilian. The second one in French only. 

It seems I have to dust off my bad old French anyway. Thanks for the book recommendations. I appreciate them. It had been easier if the Romance languages had remained Latin.