Am I doing something unethical?

[Grandma]

Hi – new member here, posting for the first time.

 

Please advise if you think I am doing something unethical or not.

 

I have occasionally made my own copies of OOP decks that retail for many hundreds of dollars – if I ever win the lottery I plan to go back and buy any available of these real decks, but barring that unlikely occurrence I will never be able to afford them.  In the meantime, I have downloaded pictures of the cards and printed them at home.  The resulting deck is obviously a copy and would fool no one into thinking it is an original.

 

Not only would it fool no one, but no one even sees it.  I live alone, read only for myself, and have no tarot-enthusiast friends or family.  If I were ever to show one of these decks to anyone, I would explain how it came to be, with full credit to the creators of the original.

 

I haven’t hurt an artist/author/publisher/retailer in any way that I can understand, but perhaps I don’t understand.  It seems to me the equivalent of cutting a picture from a magazine and pinning it to a bulletin board, or perhaps quoting an article or book with attribution.

 

All feedback will be appreciated!  (Another question might be - why do I even worry about something that no one will ever know about, but that's a whole other discussion!)

 

[Ratty]

Hello, Grandma, and welcome to the forum.

 

Would it make you feel less worried if you contacted the original artist/author and asked permission?

 

There is a copyright issue. Quoting with attribution is exempt behaviour, as would be copying a few cards for educational purposes. Unless the author has been dead for a long time, copying a whole deck may be breaking the law in your country. There are exceptions. Because it is for non-commercial use and for private study, exceptions would be granted in some jurisdictions. In the UK, there are a slew of "moral rights" associated with artwork, none of which you appear to be breaking. I'm not a lawyer and whether you'd have an exemption for "research" is a tough call.

 

All these questions and issues can go away with an e-mail requesting permission.

 

[DanielJUK]

Apart from the legal and copyright issues, I think you are fine with the unethical question Grandma. What is your motive for printing those decks? You are using them at home for personal use, you are not selling them or using them commercially. But this would change if you were doing readings commercially with them or uploading pics of your decks online. It's just for your personal use.

 

In my opinion you are ethically fine but if you ever have the money, perhaps support the artist / publisher and buy the original (or you win the lottery) but your motive is not to make money from them.

[Grandma]

Thank you, Ratty and DanielJUK!

 

Not only is your feedback informative and thought-provoking, it is energizing and fun to talk with people who love tarot!  I can already see that  joining Tarot, Tea, & Me was a great decision.

[Saturn Celeste]

Thank you, Ratty and DanielJUK!

 

Not only is your feedback informative and thought-provoking, it is energizing and fun to talk with people who love tarot!  I can already see that  joining Tarot, Tea, & Me was a great decision.

Hello Grandma and welcome to Tarot Tea and Me!  I am in total agreement with Daniel.  As long as these cards are for personal use and you don't profit by them in anyway (that is from doing readings for money) then you are fine.  Just the fact you're worried about it demonstrates you have integrity.  Enjoy your cards and like Daniel said, if you do get the money, buy a deck from the artist. ;)  If you have any questions or get stuck, we also have a helpdesk here that works really well!  ^-^

[reall]

it's not unethical but *morale/conscious gray question?:)

imo if it's some *old deck with art that should be in public domain anyway I don't see problem with printing 1 copy just for yourself?:) even if there are some regulation it's not legally wrong as long you don't try to sell it,

 

But if we are talking more recent decks like i.e Alice Tarot by baba studio that get otp, or other living artist I would feel bad for it, imo it's same as steeling!:)

Artist need to pay rent & eat too!:) so i would definitively ask for permission or something,, that wouldn't make me feel uncomfortable for using *legally incriminating deck/piece of art?x.x facepalm lol

 

also even if you don't pay *full price it still cost to get it printed but like you say it's not fooling anyone as quality can't be near original image resolution/colors etc & card stock is worse!x.x facepalm

all that would just make me feel bad using it!x.x so I would rather go with some *affordable deck I like!:D we're happy to have plenty to pick in our time!:) imo mini are great to see what you like/work for you best?;)

 

But if you don't have problem with any issue i mentioned above, just go for it, like you say you are not hurting anyone(but yourself?x,x) & no one knows to care?x.x facepalm lol

[ilweran]

I have a homemade copy of the Greenwood, printed, I think, before the artist gave permission for her images to be used this way. I did have the odd twinge of unease,  but if something is OOP you are not taking money from the artist and if you're not making money from it and it's for your personal use I agree with others that say it's not unethical.

 

In print decks would obviously be a different matter.

[Grandma]

Thank you, all, for your feedback, interest, and welcoming messages!

 

I have a related question:

 

I presume that many OOP decks, specifically those advertised for sale as

"unopened", "brand-new", "pristine", etc., were bought by speculators for the express purpose of being resold at high prices should the decks become sought after once they are hard to find.  If so, do these collectors/scalpers pay royalties to the holders of the copyrights when they sell the decks?  My guess is that they do not, so it is they who are stealing from the artists.  If I am right, then  making homemade fool-no-one copies for my own aesthetic pleasure, study and personal reading is possibly stealing from the new seller but not from the artist.

 

Does that make sense?

 

 

 

[Saturn Celeste]

Thank you, all, for your feedback, interest, and welcoming messages!

 

I have a related question:

 

I presume that many OOP decks, specifically those advertised for sale as

"unopened", "brand-new", "pristine", etc., were bought by speculators for the express purpose of being resold at high prices should the decks become sought after once they are hard to find.

 

Yes, this is correct.

 

If so, do these collectors/scalpers pay royalties to the holders of the copyrights when they sell the decks?

 

There are no copyrights to a tarot deck is the deck is an authentic deck.  Whoever bought the deck and has it in their possession is the owner of the deck.

 

My guess is that they do not, so it is they who are stealing from the artists.

 

Tarot decks are like record albums, someone buys your album you get the royalties, the decks are in your name as the artist.  If the artist does not have this set up properly then they are losing out on income.

 

If I am right, then  making homemade fool-no-one copies for my own aesthetic pleasure, study and personal reading is possibly stealing from the new seller but not from the artist.

 

Don't worry about your decks!  You're doing nothing wrong!  If someone were to put a xeroxed copied deck on the market then they are stealing from the artist & writer of the decks--they are the ones that get the royalties, it would have nothing to do with the seller.

 

Does that make sense?

Grandma[/member], I hope my reply to you makes sense.  You are fine, why don't you make a thread in the introduction section so we can get to know about you and your tarot history?  Put aside the worry about  your decks and enjoy the company here.  ^-^

[Grandma]

Thank you, Saturn Celeste!

 

Actually, I'm not worried anymore, and I was never really worried, just more wondering if I should be worried!

 

My last post was just more of an intellectual curiosity type question...

 

I will introduce myself pronto, and I am enjoying the company here tremendously already!

[DevonCarter]

Thank you, all, for your feedback, interest, and welcoming messages!

 

I have a related question:

 

I presume that many OOP decks, specifically those advertised for sale as

"unopened", "brand-new", "pristine", etc., were bought by speculators for the express purpose of being resold at high prices should the decks become sought after once they are hard to find.  If so, do these collectors/scalpers pay royalties to the holders of the copyrights when they sell the decks?  My guess is that they do not, so it is they who are stealing from the artists.  If I am right, then  making homemade fool-no-one copies for my own aesthetic pleasure, study and personal reading is possibly stealing from the new seller but not from the artist.

 

Does that make sense?

That's not really how it works. The artist and copyright holders were paid when the deck was first bought. Any profit made from selling them later at a markup is based on market prices, and has nothing to do with the artists or copyright holders. It's not stealing to collect a deck, keep it in it's original packaging, and then sell it later at whatever price the market will bear. That's a common occurrence in nearly all hobbies. (And stirs up controversy in many of them, as well!) Think of a Picasso being sold at auction - his descendants don't get a cut of the markup from the original selling price.

 

Printing your own copy of a deck - at home - for personal use is, technically, against copyright. However, it's not something you'll ever get in trouble for. I am a graphic designer at a printer, so this is something I deal with on a frequent basis, and it is a bit fuzzy in many ways. You can do things yourself at home for personal use that would get us in major legal hot water as a business.

 

I am constantly having to explain to people that no, just because it's on Google doesn't mean you can use it in your brochure. No, you can't use the Batman logo for your own business. No, I cannot print out a giant blow-up copy of this Disney poster, not even just to decorate your daughter's dorm room. We, as a business, would get a hefty 5-figure fine for doing that.

 

That said, I have made autograph books to take to Walt Disney World for my friend's kids. Personal use, no profit made. If the person needing the poster had their own wide-format plotter, they could print whatever they want, as long as they aren't selling it or profiting from it.

 

So while what you're doing could get a company in hot water (companies have even sued daycare centers for having their characters painted on the outside of their buildings), for personal use you can get away with it with no worries.

 

And welcome!

[Grandma]

Hi DevonCarter -

 

Thank you for the information! 

 

An unexpected outcome of my love for Tarot is how it leads me to learn so much in areas tangentially connected to the cards - this is a perfect example.